Received a challenge in this build thread here: Click Here
Quote: Posted 12/08/04 15:21:10 (GMT) -- Tengudor_t Now I'm looking forward to seeing a better cleric archer, which will obviously be created by agent of greater will very soon.
May not have been aimed at me, but I have a tendency to take these little things personally
So after reading the above, I went and did a search, turns out they have a point, there's only one CLC/BRD/AA build and it's theirs. So why the scarcity? Two words: Xp penalty. Elf favoured class: Wizard
Hence the wizard class highly...erm...favoured. But in any PvP or semi-challenging AI environment I consider this build laughable. Consider the following scenario: CLC/Wiz/AA against: <<insert suitable build here, taken from the following list: Simple fighter, Sneaky Monk, Sneaky Rogue, Simple Monk, Any Monk, Any Melee Build, Any Sorceror/Wiz build that can cast Bigby>> What do these all have in common? All are guaranteed to have a feat or spell that requires a Discipline check. What don't CLC/WIZ/AAs have? Natch. And no-one wants to have to take SF & ESF:Disc just to be comparable. I don't want to get into a debate about the importance of/over-reliance on discipline in NWN, but majority consensus rules in this case.
So you can pepper that fighter/ogre/kd zombie with 20 arrows, but as soon as it gets a knockdown hit, you're odds on favourite for a new plot of land in the local cemetary, because spam KD/IKDs will follow, with maybe a Disarm thrown in to remove that nasty stringed implement from you before you hurt yourself. Example: Click Here
Finally, I'm tired of the number of "I've had a great idea today - how about a Wisdom based, full plate wearing Archer!1!1!". This build isn't anything amazing, but it fills that description, and doesn't do it badly. Copy link. Paste. Sarcastic comment about search optional.
Fully Buffed AB with Rapid Shot activated and mundane bow: 71/66/61/56/51 Ooooh! A Clicky! (With random HP rolls and bard song not activated). That link might get removed. Oh well.
Advantages:
High buffed and unbuffed AB
Respectable Saves
Discipline & UMD
All archer niceties (Called Shot, Blind Fight, EWF, EP, CC/ICC)
Small Bard Song
Disadvantages:
Xp Penalty
Low AC - using mundane armour and long term buffs AC = 36 Stay out of Harm's way (or whatever the sword-wielding maniac chasing you is called), rely on Improved Invis when you have to.
Comments: Interestingly, I did something I am normally loathe to do with builds: sacrificed 2 Epic Feat slots on pre-Epic feats. Previously this build had 2 extra Great Wisdoms, but the loss of 1 AB is offset by not losing the Called shot/ Blind fight/ Toughness combo.
Domains: War can be replaced with Strength for more DP spell slots and again interestingly, Plant would not be an ineffective choice; with Barkskin synergising with armour, and Creeping Doom giving a slowing/damaging AoE option. Plus Turn Vermin is SO useful when killing Rats at level 1!
I didn't take advantage of the Cleric Divine Power Extra attack, if you wish to, then just take 4 more Cleric levels pre-epic.
No level 9 spells. Debatable, but an Implosion of DC 30ish was not enough of a deciding factor. Cleric side is mainly for buffing, no buffing spells of note at level 9.
Pointless taking Armor skin really - swap for Toughness if you disagree.
Couldn't make my mind up about Conc vs Spot. Seems a shame to waste that +14 overall to spot, but Conc is needed for ICC. So I made them both both rubbish.
So getting back to the opening statement: how does this compare? Rare Breed vs Enlightened Archer
Level 10: Enlightened has taken its first AA level, Rare breed has wisely Heehee taken 1 more Cleric level giving them access to Improved Invis. Enlightened also has yet to take Zen archery and so is working off a DEX of 13. Rare Breed slaughters the puny opponent.
Level 20: Enlightened has finally taken Zen archery, and now has Divine Might. gasps Unfortunately Enlightened still is working off substandard abilities, namely WIS 15. Rare Breed has a WIS of 22 and Called Shot vs EA's Disc of 10. Pock*cough*Rare Breed does an amusing dance on Enlightened Archer's corpse.
Level 40: Enlightened Archer has lower HP after missing toughness, no called shot/blind fight. Has comparable saves, but better buffed Damage and AC due to Divine Shield and Might. The problem is: EA is still working off a WIS of 16 vs 32. The moment EA runs out of Divine Buffs they're in trouble. Rare Breed has access to 8th level Cleric spells compared to EA's 6th level, still has Improved Invis, and now gets +4 STR, +10 DEX, +8 CON from War Domain and associated spells. Plus better equipment from UMD
You decide. The above was done in jest - no huffiness please _________________ Stupidity and laziness annoy me. If my tone seems acerbic then examine your post. If you can find no examples of either, then the conclusion should be obvious.
Edited By pocketbeetle on 12/14/05 02:51
Half-Elf would avoid the XP Penalty. Especially when you're not focusing on dexterity it might be a viable choice. _________________ Surely, without war there would be no loss - hence, no mourning, no grief, no pain, no misery...
yeah why dont u go dex anyways , your ac suffers enough already and you dont have any dr or elem resists nor crit or sneak immunity to tank down. and the dc isnt that superb
Thing with Half-Elf is they don't get Longbow prof. from Elven Weapon Prof. I'm not sure if Bard gets a bow prof (shortbow?) but Cleric certainly doesn't IIRC, so you'd have to shell out for martial to qualify for AA if you wanted to use Half-Elf. _________________ .:\_/:. Only those who have known darkness in (OvO) their hearts will see the shadows in life... (|__|) ..".."..
Quote: Posted 12/14/05 11:23:13 (GMT) -- Jennalee
Thing with Half-Elf is they don't get Longbow prof. from Elven Weapon Prof. I'm not sure if Bard gets a bow prof (shortbow?) but Cleric certainly doesn't IIRC, so you'd have to shell out for martial to qualify for AA if you wanted to use Half-Elf.
Both cleric and bard just get weapon prof: simple so no bow at all for any of them. It's either elf and xp penalty, either h.elf and one less feat
Quote: Posted 12/14/05 08:29:53 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ Half-Elf would avoid the XP Penalty. Especially when you're not focusing on dexterity it might be a viable choice.
Good thought, I didn't consider it, but think that Kail summarises it well. If you do decide to go that route then drop something like toughness.
Quote: Posted 12/14/05 10:17:42 (GMT) -- bloodymerc yeah why dont u go dex anyways , your ac suffers enough already and you dont have any dr or elem resists nor crit or sneak immunity to tank down. and the dc isnt that superb
Point of this was to build a Armour wearing, Wis based Archer
Going Dex without Uncanny Dodge (and without some sort of redeeming feature) would be verging on pointlessness.
If you want Crit/Sneak immunity go to my post here: Click Here
As noted AC isn't great, hence reliance on keeping your distance with 50% conceal from Improved Invis to help you in tight spots.
Of course spell Dcs aren't superb, there's no spell focus feats! Stated several times Cleric spells for buffing
Elem resist: Cleric buffs, War domain gives limited DR, and tanking down on any server with an archer is not a good idea unless you happen to have Epic Warding.
_________________ Character Build Calculator:Kamiryn's uber tool. (That's the tool belonging to Kamiryn, not Kamiryn is a tool you fool!)
this is a semi-popular build on the pw that I play on. it is done with similar class levels, but the focus of the build is different.
basically the idea is this. cleric buffs and arcane archer levels add lots of ab. this leaves lots of room to raise cha to add divine damage. So go for 18 or 20 wis, then raise cha for the rest and grab divine might. you'll have nice ab with all your buffs cast (60+). With divine might you'll have around 13 divine damage per arrow, then 7 more from cleric spells (divine favor and battletide). so about 20 irresistable damage per arrow. With haste and rapid shot you have 6 attacks, so 120 damage per round if all the attacks hit, plus whatever the arrows do, etc... 3x crits on a bow too, so you'll do major damage when you crit.
I'd also suggest taking the bard level first (for more skill points). take 2 bard/8 cleric/10 aa pre-epic for max bab. I would take a third bard level at 37+ to round off skills for a final distribution of 3 bard/16 cleric/21 aa. 16 cleric for longer duration and more mass heals, also if you go 3 bard, 22 aa doesn't give you an ab boost.
to make it this way, you'll need to re-arrange things a bit (starting stats, etc...). I just wanted to mention this variant because it works really well. the main problem is that it requires micro-management of spells (constantly recasting cleric ab spells and divine might, etc...).
I'd also suggest taking the bard level first (for more skill points). take 2 bard/8 cleric/10 aa pre-epic for max bab.
He has thoroughly explained why he did Cleric 9 pre epic. I quote, IMPROVED INVIS!!! All that playability beats 1 AB by a long shot. Also, you suggest to lose that playability and still go only 20 WIS and then CHA for damage. Better go 22 WIS, then rest CHA with 9 Cleric pre epic. Same AB, but 1 less damage for two tons playability(or thereabouts).
To the builder. Well built. Tightly planned. I am sure this char is very nice both PvP and PvM in a group. As you say yourself, AC isn't to good so solo will be tougher.
Really not sure if 43 discipline is very helpful either, but probably good enough in most PvM. Your AC will get higher than that, so not to helpful.
I play on the same PW as J. I have a similar build.
Any AA can get a good AB (DEX or WIS based). So why not max your damage output at the same time? Divine Might is the way to go.
I took C8/B2/AA10. Then I alternated Cleric and AA at appropriate levels for gains that best helped their classes. And finished off with a Bard level to max Tumble. So you miss out on II until lvl 21. Not a problem unless you are soloing since you are an archer who's supposed to stay out of the way.
Buffed I get: 68 AB 60 AC TONS of Damage (Avg damage at 40 of almost 200 on our PW).
-pc
not sure what playability you're talking about.
the main problem with the original build is that it does low damage. If you can kill the bad guys from afar, you won't need ii, because they'll be dead. you do get ii eventually anyways, so a moot point. I usually design builds for max power at lvl 40 and I offer suggestions with that in mind. feel free to disagree, etc... or build it differently.
also, doing 9 cleric/1 bard/10 aa pre-epic is fine as long as you get 23 aa levels. you'll have one more damage and the same ab. but also you won't have as many mass heals (assuming cha route for build). and your cleric buffs won't last as long (could be considered less playability at least at lvl 40).
that is a fair trade and a minor difference. if you go the 1 bard route, I'd still suggest taking that at lvl 1 so that you can get x4 bard skills.
If you're going for a wis based cleric/aa (no cha). I'd suggest getting more cleric levels. your important buffs like divine power, aid, prayer, battletide and such will last longer and you'll have lots of wis so you can cast well too. although if you start down that route, you'll find that your cleric spells are more effective than the archery (at least that's the conclusion that I come to from playing this kind of build). so maybe only take 9 aa for piercing premonition and the rest cleric or maybe just drop aa in that case, which frees up lots of options for multiclassing.
Another Challenger - I do so like these.
Quote: Posted 12/19/05 19:13:14 (GMT) -- pc_g0d I play on the same PW as J. How nice we're all friends here I have a similar build. I chose: Cleric16/Bard3/AA21. Starting Stats: STR 13/DEX 13/CON 10/WIS 15/INT 10/CHA 15 Ending Stats: STR 13/DEX 13/CON 10/WIS 18/INT 10/CHA 26 Any AA can get a good AB (DEX or WIS based). So why not max your damage output at the same time? Divine Might is the way to go. As was Bakelite and Asbestos I took C8/B2/AA10. Then I alternated Cleric and AA at appropriate levels for gains that best helped their classes. And finished off with a Bard level to max Tumble. So you miss out on II until lvl 21.
So, let me get this straight. At level 20: Low AC, level 4 Cleric spells (no II), and these stats: STR DEX CON WIS INT CHA 13 .. 13 . 10 . 15 . 10 .. 20 HP: 156 (without Toughness) Mmmm. At least you look pretty, and know it.
Quote: Posted 12/19/05 19:13:14 (GMT) -- pc_g0d Not a problem unless you are soloing since you are an archer who's supposed to stay out of the way.Chuckle Chuckle
Enough with the mockery, let's get down to business.
Divine Might & Shield require: Power Attack. That's 3 extra feats you have to spend. I've already stated in the original post that I sacrificed 2 epic feats in order to fully kit out this Archer.
INT 10: In total you get 140 skillpoints (assuming BRD taken first). That's 3 skills maxed and some for perform. 3 skills. ticks skills off on fingers Discipline, Tumble and ..... UMD? So that's a total of 19 caster levels you've taken without spellcraft or concentration, and obviously no CC/ICC also I assume?
With no spellcraft and a focus on a non-saving throw stat, how exactly do you intend to make a Save?
Quote: Posted 12/19/05 19:13:14 (GMT) -- pc_g0d Buffed I get: 68 AB 60 AC TONS of Damage (Avg damage at 40 of almost 200 on our PW). -pc
Respectfully, I too can pull figures out of a hat. Create a thread, give an understandable level by level distribution, and let others decide. Without a level dist, I can't really reply. I've bothered to take the time to build an approximate of what you suggest, here's my viewpoint:
As mentioned above, you're feat starved. Ending on AA 21 is IMO unwise - one more level and you could have had another feat - the difference between CLC 16 and CLC 15 is negligible.
You're skill starved. INT 10 and non-human, EOD
Saves are poor
Playability decreased pre-epic
Unbuffed AB of 46 at Lvl 40 (assuming you have EP & WF/EWF - see feat starved point)
Your figure of 60 AC is dubious.(again assuming mundane items) Take the buffed AC of the thread build (36) add +10 (Divine Shield)onto it (46), that's still 14 AC difference.
And finally:
The entire point of your build is to get higher damage. Congratulations, 26 CHA later you get a whopping: +8 dmg, for 8 rounds. Buff that up with a lucky roll on Eagle's Spl and it's +10. What's more you even lose a round duration each time in a battle that you have to recast the two Divine feats.
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Quote: Posted 12/19/05 21:43:24 (GMT) -- jjjhhhlll not sure what playability you're talking about.
I'm guessing that he means the playability that involves 50% of attacks against you missing between levels 9 - 21.
Quote: Posted 12/19/05 21:43:24 (GMT) -- jjjhhhlll the main problem with the original build is that it does low damage.
A reasonable point, dmg is 13-20 using mundane. But it's also a fair point that this is a classic feature of NWN archers as a whole. I do not feel that sacrificing a whole load of feats, skills and AB to do +10 damage more for 10 rounds is a sensible alternative.
Quote: Posted 12/19/05 21:43:24 (GMT) -- jjjhhhlll If you're going for a wis based cleric/aa (no cha). You mean like the build at the top of this page maybe? I'd suggest getting more cleric levels. your important buffs like divine power, aid, prayer, battletide and such will last longer and you'll have lots of wis so you can cast well too.
Already dealt with this, without Foci, your spell DCs are useless.
Conclusion
Despite appearances, this doesn't boil down to a who's-better-than-who match in the end. I posted this build because there was a hole in this area of class combination. It always makes me slightly weary when I read a build thread, and one of the feedback posts says "Yes, I've been playing this build for several years, mine is better because..." Instead of digging those stats from the game and writing them all out, posting twice each in another reasonably unrelated build, why not just take a little time create a build thread in the first place?
Let others decide what they want to play. *shrugs*
jjjhhhlll, pc_g0d, You've been given a reasonable chance to put your opinions across, I have given my response, and as OP I would prefer this either to end, or be taken elsewhere. No more discussion of CHA based builds please _________________ Some Forum Members believe respect is a right and should be freely given. Myself: I work on a point-buy system, and today my friend you're all out of credit...
Edited By pocketbeetle on 12/20/05 22:12
AGREED!
I feel your frustrations my friend! There seems to nothing worse than putting out an idea that you had and have others totally mis-represent your idea! It is an all to common occurance as of late. Im thinkin its time we petitioned anuis and grip and add to the rules but allowing only ON TOPIC issues in a post! What do i mean? as stated, what does a cha based archer have to do with the build stated? nothing!
peace, and happy holidays
my apologies if this has sounded like a pissing match. that was not my intention. just wanted to offer an alternative way to go. I've played both types of build and found the cha route more fun to play. that is all. take care.
pocketbeetle,
I didn't mean anything against you, but for some reason you took my post personally. You are the one acting like a child, mocking, etc. I'd be happy to respond, but since I don't like to be treated like a child, I won't waste any more time on this build.
***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** For those that wish to play this build, be wary that you'll have a high AB, but will do very low damage against most monsters. Have a nice day. ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** -pc
this is a semi-popular build on the pw that I play on. it is done with similar class levels, but the focus of the build is different.
my apologies if this has sounded like a pissing match. that was not my intention. just wanted to offer an alternative way to go. I've played both types of build and found the cha route more fun to play. that is all. take care.
pocketbeetle,