This is a build i am playing on my world at the moment, and it's unbeaten in PvP and PvM. it's a build that uses it's cleric levels purely for buffs and no save spells. it uses extend spell and maximise spell to gain maximum longetivity from it's spells, and therefore is easily able to outlast any other class on a long fighting journey.
Human, any non-evil playable 1-40 PvM and powerful PvP presence.
Starting:
STR-10 DEX-8 CON-16 INT-14 WIS-16 CHA-10
Clerical domains: i chose trickery and magic, for ice storm and improved invis
i'm sure there's more, but i cant think of the spells in front of the keyboard.
FAQ:
Why the 2 great wisdoms in epic? Soley to make use of the 16th cleric level. this means it can cast all lvl 8 spells and make use... hell, they're only COT bonus feats anyway!
Why CON based? Why Why Why?! because this is a Meleé tank. i figured That the cleric can get moderate to good AB without much difficulty, so i put all points into CON and made a damage reducing, hard hitting, high HP tank. This is the Sumo wrestler among the whippets!
Only 9 damage reduction? why? Simply because it's better than no damage reduction at all! This build is workable in almost all environments, and in a low magic world, this would be one of the most powerful builds a server could want, as it would have higher HPs than a fighter, better damage than a weapon master, and more damage reduction than a brick wall.
What role does this character play in a party? This character can play the part of the mage, the fighter and the cleric all in one full plated shell! it's buffs are easily stronger than any mages, it's damage is superior to that of a fighter, and it *is* a cleric after all. This character should be at the front line of the action, cleaving skulls and throwing maximised ice storms like there's no tomorrow! _________________ Dwarves hate to be mistaken for Gnomes. Even Gnomes hate to be mistaken as Gnomes. They prefer people to think of them as small, effeminate Dwarves.
Not to bring you down or anything but this character is completely worthless without buffs. All you can do is stand getting beaten; that's your strong point I guess. Your SR punching ability is non-existant (you have a 30% chance of failure against a level 12 Monk), and your AB won't hit a Kobold.
I hope I don't sound too harsh. Absit iniuria verbis
What I mean to say is that it's too much to assume this guy would make up the party mage or fighter. Mage perhaps if there are no SR on the mobs, and fighter if and only if you are able to buff and won't be dispelled.
That said, I recommend you pump up Strength. Alot.
EDIT: do you realize Fighters get Martial profiency for free? _________________ Surely, without war there would be no loss - hence, no mourning, no grief, no pain, no misery...
Edited By FinneousPJ on 12/26/05 18:19
Was gonna bring up the Martial feat too when I saw yer last edit
One thing. I suspect this is not gonna cut the mustard on high magic settings for PvP. PvM this will beat down most things in it's way, I would think.
Not to bring you down or anything but this character is completely worthless without buffs. All you can do is stand getting beaten; that's your strong point I guess. Your SR punching ability is non-existant (you have a 30% chance of failure against a level 12 Monk), and your AB won't hit a Kobold.
i'm not too sure which kobolds you play against, but where i come from, a kobold with 50 AC is unheard of. The point of High CON is to counteract the AB loss. without buffs, i agree, this is not the best character in the world. with buffs, you cannot say this is a worthless build. This is obviously NOT a solo build, and can function well with a party. 50 AB with a mundane rapier is not low by any means.
The monk point may well be true, but as i said in the build, the spells are buffing, not combat. the point of this build was to be able to take a hit, and be able to hit back. this build achieves that criterion well.
That said, I recommend you pump up Strength. Alot.
EDIT: do you realize Fighters get Martial profiency for free?
Pumping STR would give higher AB, but would lose HPs. The HPs give longetivity in most situations, and give a better chance against all opponents. if the AB is so low, the Hps give more chance to roll Those 20's to hit.
i know about fighters and their profs, i chose to get it, as fighter is not done until level 12. i chose level 12 as you get +4 from all buffs etc, and the pre-epic feats help a lot. i'm no an infidel, i know fighters get meleé weapons...
But thanks for the feedback.
Quote: Posted 12/26/05 18:17:33 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ I hope I don't sound too harsh.
Thick skin, my friend. thick skin. a little more tact would have been nice, but thanks anyway
-Eddie _________________ Dwarves hate to be mistaken for Gnomes. Even Gnomes hate to be mistaken as Gnomes. They prefer people to think of them as small, effeminate Dwarves.
Was gonna bring up the Martial feat too when I saw yer last edit
EDIT: see above post
Quote: Posted 12/26/05 18:30:54 (GMT) -- Khandahr One thing. I suspect this is not gonna cut the mustard on high magic settings for PvP.
yeah i see your point. but how i use PvP, it is a naked duel between two characters, not to test who has the best items, but who has the best character. but this is me being a pedant, so ignore me. this build is useless high-magic PvP, but brilliant low-magic. _________________ Dwarves hate to be mistaken for Gnomes. Even Gnomes hate to be mistaken as Gnomes. They prefer people to think of them as small, effeminate Dwarves.
i know about fighters and their profs, i chose to get it, as fighter is not done until level 12. i chose level 12 as you get +4 from all buffs etc, and the pre-epic feats help a lot. i'm no an infidel, i know fighters get meleé weapons...
No, the logic is suspect. There's no reason to take Martial Proficiency when you take 4 levels of Ftr pre-epic anyway. So it throws off your spell progression by one level, but it evens out by Level 14 anyway. In fact, you take 16 levels of Cleric, but you can't cast any of those 8th level spells that Cleric 15 and 16 provide until Level 26 and beyond (when you pump some points into Wis). So even that move is suspect. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Edited By grizzled_dwarflord on 12/26/05 18:53
Oh, the build is nice. It's a solid, thoroughbred buffer Cleric You just made it sound too nice with all those maximized Ice Storms and being the party mage. And unbeatable PvP?
And I have never thought that going heavy on Constitution pays for the loss of offense. A Constitution of 22 to get EDR and end up in an even score I understand, but raising it another ten points beyond that!? It's insane! You get +5 on Fortitude and 400 HP, that's true. However you lose 5 AB and damage - and your maximum AB ever at the moment is 56. It's not that high against epic bosses, not to mention Dexterity based AC tanks. And the real point behind this is the unbuffed AB of 30. That's the lowest AB I've ever seen; even my arcane casters rate higher.
And please don't mock Kobolds
EDIT:
Quote: OP yeah i see your point. but how i use PvP, it is a naked duel between two characters, not to test who has the best items, but who has the best character. but this is me being a pedant, so ignore me. this build is useless high-magic PvP, but brilliant low-magic.
That sounds like a test of who has the best buffs to me. I think, for the most balanced PvP environment, there should be +5 items available. This eliminates the need for every character to have GMW.
Quote: me being the party Cleric.
, good thing I noticed that _________________ Surely, without war there would be no loss - hence, no mourning, no grief, no pain, no misery...
Edited By FinneousPJ on 12/26/05 19:20
I agree with the dwarflord, there's little logic in wasting a feat on WP: martial when you can have it for free. Start off as a FTR, so you don't waste that feat sloton WP: martial. You'll have access to most of the weapons you might find right from the start and you have an easier 1st lvl also. I would start with CHA 8 and DEX 10, but I guess it's a matter of taste. I believe you don't plan to go against anyone able to use dispel, cause in that case you are in a lot of trouble. You are easily dispellable and when you get dispelled you have just your HP to rely on. The way your build is now, once debuffed you are just a big bag of meat.
I would pump up STR instead of CON. Actually I would start with STR 14, CON 14 or better yet, start with dwarf STR 14, CON 16 and leave CHA 6, forgetting about turning the dead. Probably I'd get more FTR lvls preepic to improve AB also and I'd try to get expertise/impr.exp. to pump up AC when needed (f.e. if I get debuffed and I need to rebuff while in combat or to cast II or GS to get out of trouble). Empower spell maybe instead of maximise but again, that's just matter of taste, I'd say. Finally I'd take the last cleric lvl at 40th lvl to max out spellcraft (43+2=45 for +9 ST vs spells). I guess this is all I had to say
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Ok, before this gets bloody: my opinion is that you're sacrificing too much offensive capability with that Constitution of 32. By rearranging your attributes, you could effectively gain +6 AB and damage with the loss of 400 HP and 5 Fortitude.
If you prefer the defense and it does good where you play, then go for it. It's not like you were wrong, it's a matter of preference. _________________ Surely, without war there would be no loss - hence, no mourning, no grief, no pain, no misery...
Edited By FinneousPJ on 12/26/05 19:33
I don't think there's many issues with this build other than the low AB and the Martial Weapons feat. I'd take the Dwarflord's advice and pick up FTR at level 1 for the free proficiency, then go CLC from there. I'd also do as others suggest and lower the CON a bit and raise STR. My preference would be an unbuffed AB of +38 or so (This is what I did with my Clangeddin's Wrath build: FTR 12/CLC 18/CoT 10). This way, when you're dispelled, you can just recast a single spell to get it up to a respectable value (Divine Power, Divine Favor, or whatever). I'd assume you'd have a STR-boosting item or two to help out anyway though (unless you're playing a completely no-magic environment).
I'd also get those epic CoT levels in ASAP to get the GRT WIS feats. As the Dwarflord mentioned, you're going a long time without access to your higher level spell slots.
As for being dispelled, I wouldn't worry about that. Sure, it can happen, but I've seen (and played) plenty of buffing builds with low caster levels that can be dispelled. It's a chance you take and you need some kind of backup plan. I go for the higher STR and moderate CON fall-back position. You've chosen the high CON route. Meh, I think either way can work. _________________ Wave upon wave of demented avengers marched cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream...
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 12/26/05 20:31
Quote: Posted 12/26/05 20:29:06 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
As for being dispelled, I wouldn't worry about that. Sure, it can happen, but I've seen (and played) plenty of buffing builds with low caster levels that can be dispelled. It's a chance you take and you need some kind of backup plan. I go for the higher STR and moderate CON fall-back position. You've chosen the high CON route. Meh, I think either way can work.
i was toying with a cleric 26/10CoT/4 fighter, but after using the search engine, i thought otherwise...there's such a large amount of them about, another one would jst be pointless.
foolishly, i thought that 18 STR from divine power (22 with bull's) would be enough to get a nice enough AB, but it seems not. i think this build is best placed in a no-magic environment, and does suffer largly on a high-magic server, due to lack of AB/AC. _________________ Dwarves hate to be mistaken for Gnomes. Even Gnomes hate to be mistaken as Gnomes. They prefer people to think of them as small, effeminate Dwarves.
www.Zogonia.com
I mostly agree with what the Dwarflord said - get fighter earlier for free martial proficiency, and take more warrior AB levels pre-epic, and you'll be better off.
Buffing up to your AB limit using a low-AB character is nice in theory - I mean, you get an AB of +50 with a mundane weapon after you buff! Huzzah! But... it's safe to assume everyone in epic levels will have +5 weapons, so GMW kind of gives you a false increase, except in critically low-magic environments. Many of the direct AB-boosting buffs are round/level duration, so you won't be using them in every fight lest you run out of spells too quickly.
Against cannon fodder, then, you'll probably have a buffed AB in the lower to middle 40s. Which is the same as the unbuffed/mundane equipment AB of most melee builds. Then you'd go up to your full buff against bosses... except for the problem that even at full buff you'd probably only hit bosses on a 20 with a max AB of +56
For a battle cleric I would aim for an unbuffed AB of +35 at a bare minimum, if not +38 or higher. The better you can get the unbuffed AB the more your buffs put you ahead of the game instead of merely drawing you up equal with unbuffed fighters. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
i was toying with a cleric 26/10CoT/4 fighter, but after using the search engine, i thought otherwise...there's such a large amount of them about, another one would jst be pointless.
AFAIK, using the search engine there's only one CLC 26/CoT 10/ FTR 4
Quote: foolishly, i thought that 18 STR from divine power (22 with bull's) would be enough to get a nice enough AB, but it seems not. i think this build is best placed in a no-magic environment, and does suffer largly on a high-magic server, due to lack of AB/AC.
Personally it's not the low AB in itself that concerns me, since you can buff yourself up, but it's the low AB and the dispellable nature of the build put together. Sure you can rebuff yourself, but you have to be able to do it. IE can be made to work even where "switched off" during casting, since it switches off only after you cast. Activate it immediately after you cast the spell and you'll always have +10 AC. It's a feat worth considering, even if just to GS yourself out of trouble. The point is that usually builds with fewer caster lvls tend to be more selfreliant when not buffed than yours, that's all; after all yours is supposed to be a battle cleric. If you were to take more lvls and focus on casting it would be different. Personally I'd make different choices, but you know better what's best for you
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 12/26/05 21:16
Considering the lack of use of CHA from both domains and Divine Wrath, have you considered going Dwarf instead? This would tie in with your CON fetish that appears to be going on here, giving you 18 at start up.
Another in agreement with Martial Proficiency as has been mentioned previously.
Epic Toughness at 38th... I'd lose that for something, anything more useful than another 20 HP.
pretty nifty. i might recommend dropping martial proficiency, and replacing it with exotic. then focus in the kukri. you have the same crit range as the rapier, and instead of piercing you do slashing damage (i find piercing damage too easily absorbed). i recommend using scimitar also, instead of rapier, for that reason, since you don't seem to be finessing. but if you want a martial weapon really badly, take fighter a bit earlier. just seems easier.
nifty numbers. i first gagged on the CON, but it seems pretty nice. I think if you lost a little CON, though, you would still survive well enough. you can always take magic domain for stoneskin to help boost combat survivability.
interesting concept. a high CON cleric. i like it, but the AB has me worried. you need almost all spells to reach a nice AB, if even two or three get dispelled, you need to recast all of three to hit anything. also, if you run out of spells during a series of long battles, you might be in some trouble. i dunno about kobolds, but anyone else might prove to have an AC too high to pierce without the spells.
dwarf would be a good idea, to take advantage of the CON theme even more so.
-c _________________ "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."
Quote: Posted 12/27/05 04:38:12 (GMT) -- christian.schnabel dwarf would be a good idea, to take advantage of the CON theme even more so.
-c
perhaps, and if i did fighter 1st level, it wouldn't be a problem with martial prof. so i would have the same amount of feats pre-epic! genious!
this build's gonna be so reworked by the end, i'll be able to post anothe build with it _________________ Dwarves hate to be mistaken for Gnomes. Even Gnomes hate to be mistaken as Gnomes. They prefer people to think of them as small, effeminate Dwarves.
www.Zogonia.com
I want to add a few comments. It's an okay build, but as stated about 200 times or so, AB is a no no. As for being unbeatable in PvP???? No way. Quite beatable PvP is more correct. A ton of hp's won't help when someone hits and crits all the time while you have trouble hitting back. Even my Dwarven Warpriest build, which is somewhat similar in concept, would give this guy the rough and tumble.
To give you a pointer on your AB. Pure fighter, STR 32, with focus in a weapon= AB 45. Add +12 STR as that is possible in many settings, then add a +5 weapon. Total AB 56. Your max no matter the circumstances =56. You need to be fully buffed to get a pure fighters AB.
And another thing, no build is truly unbeatable in PvP. This build has potential. At least go the Dwarf and fighter at lvl 1 route.
You just made it sound too nice with all those maximized Ice Storms and being the party mage. And unbeatable PvP?
, good thing I noticed that 