I wanted the monk levels before dragon in prep for dragon but this would definitely been easier to level.
In my test mod I was able to dragon shape AB 55 and AC 71 without gear. remeber Dragons only merge armor.
***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** griphook ..Touched up build format
Edited By griphook on 12/29/05 22:52
Quote: Posted 12/26/05 18:41:54 (GMT) -- treefq I have learned a lot from everyone here.
Then we haven't been very good teachers. I can't make out heads or tails of this build. It's like reading the Matrix code, except I'm not Keanu Reeves but more like a drunk idiot with a 6th grade education. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
My brain hurts.
Formatting -- and tell me, how can you write up that? Or proof-read it? _________________ Surely, without war there would be no loss - hence, no mourning, no grief, no pain, no misery...
Let me say your formatting needs improvement, try here. Man, I almost got sick reading it...well, not just almost
Now to the build. 1)If you are to take LS then swap it around with curse song; I see little use in having both normal song and curse song at low levels when you have so few songs per day. I say if, cause you are taking LI later and you could drop LS altogether and free up a feat.
2)Disarm? why exactly disarm? and why no ID then?
3) toughness at first lvl has little use, get Zen Archery straight away and toughness only later
4) maximise spell could be swapped for empower spell, but maybe that's just me
5) starting stats: STR 8, DEX 8... ouch! You are gonna have a tough time at low lvls when you are human most of the time.
6) I'd probably get just 1 lvl of monk at the very end of the build and go for 16 druid for +8 WIS with Owl's insight
7) skills: Tumble needs just 40 ranks and... parry?!? Parry is a waste of skill points, the skill is broken. Put those points in UMD and concentration instead.
8 ) no KD? Dragon shape is made for KD!!! I'd get KD instead of disarm, definitely
I think it's all for now, at least until I do recover from reading your build
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 12/26/05 20:01
Kail made some great comments... might want to consider Bard 20/druid 17/monk 3. That gets you 9th level druid spells (elemental swarm is a good one for a dragon build) and the monk move speed bonus.
Another thing to consider is that starting at level 21 your character is going to have an exp penalty because you're using 3 base classes. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
KD and IKD are almost a must for Dragon Shape.
Don't bother with Lingering Song, as you have Lasting Inspiration in already.
The only downside I see is a low bunch of HP. I wonder if its possible to drop 2 points from WIS at startup and pump CON to 14 and CHA to 15. That way you only need to take 1 CHA later on.
Just tested this and it is possible, but only by taking EWF Unarmed and Lasting Inspiration late on and there is no room for Epic Prowess. But you gain 2 points to your Fort save and 80 HP. still just a thought.
BTW I would take at the very least 1 point in Lore, by doing this you have 26 ranks through Bardic Knowledge.
Kail made some great comments... might want to consider Bard 20/druid 17/monk 3. That gets you 9th level druid spells (elemental swarm is a good one for a dragon build) and the monk move speed bonus.
Another thing to consider is that starting at level 21 your character is going to have an exp penalty because you're using 3 base classes.
Not a bad idea but he would lose one feat that way and this build is already so feat starved. Well, I'd drop epic prowess
Ah! I left improved crit there. I did take knockdown there instead. I thought IKD wasn't a big deal anymore? it no longer adds to your AB and I already am a big huge dragon, so whats the point there?
yes 8 str/dex sucks! It has been hard to level solo in my PW
The format is from the excel spreadsheet utility, I just got used to reading it, sorry about that.
I read an interresting writeup on parry. The final argument was it was like having 3 epic dodges with a possiblity for a riposte. The PW I play is very balanced and doesn't have the ridiculous +20 items etc. So parry can work wonders.
My argument on Parry would be that you trade your Monk attack schedule for 3 Parry attempts that might block the enemy's attack and might result in a riposte attack. Effectively you lose (assuming Haste and Flurry) 4 attacks for little gain. _________________ Surely, without war there would be no loss - hence, no mourning, no grief, no pain, no misery...
With only 31 ranks in parry and low dex you are not gonna bock that many attacks, the DC being the modified attack roll that hits you. You are much better of with IE
Edit: assuming one would want to use parry, he'd have to build a dexer to be successful with it, being parry a dex based skill.
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 12/26/05 22:38
ah! I see the confusion. I suck fighting. Its in dragon shape that everything improves.
I guessed so, dragon shape gives you 36 dex. If where you play you find parry is useful, then max it out. You are missing 12 points there, which is a lot the way parry works.
I still think that you give up too much for those three possible "dodges" and the even less possible riposte, as Finn points out. Just buff up, change into dragon, knock 'em down and beat them up. They shouldn't last long
Ya good point.
So is IKD still important to get as a dragon?
Quote: Posted 12/26/05 22:11:25 (GMT) -- treefq
I read an interresting writeup on parry. The final argument was it was like having 3 epic dodges with a possiblity for a riposte.
Not quite. That's a bit of a stretch. Plus, you can't Parry 20s. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Quote: Posted 12/26/05 20:00:47 (GMT) -- Kail Pendragon ... 3) toughness at first lvl has little use, get Zen Archery straight away and toughness only later ...
Kail made some very good points, but just to note, no one can take zen archery at first level. i think the pre-req is something like a +3 BAB. at best level 3 for a 4/4 AB class, or level 6 for a 3/4 AB class.
toughness seems like it does more later, but it has the same effect from level 1 to level 39, +40 HP.
Quote: Posted 12/26/05 20:00:47 (GMT) -- Kail Pendragon ... 3) toughness at first lvl has little use, get Zen Archery straight away and toughness only later ...
Kail made some very good points, but just to note, no one can take zen archery at first level. i think the pre-req is something like a +3 BAB. at best level 3 for a 4/4 AB class, or level 6 for a 3/4 AB class.
toughness seems like it does more later, but it has the same effect from level 1 to level 39, +40 HP.
-c
-c
Yeah, no Zen archery till +3 BAB that's true. My bad. KD maybe or leave thoughness. Of course thoughness has the same effect from lvl 1 to 39 but the point is that at 1st lvl it means just HP more. You are often better off picking something else instead and getting thoughness later on, just that. Myself I would pick it up from 6th lvl onwards (it's like having the HP of one lvl higher, sorta) having the room to do it of course.
To the OP:Btw, CS or LS can be taken only in bard lvls so take care the way you lvl when swapping around feats!
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
First off: Xylo, he does make note of the xp penalty. Start with 16 Wis and 16 CHA, you will end up the same. A bit feat shuffling, perhaps. It frees up 2 points to use in whatever. (CON)
First off: Xylo, he does make note of the xp penalty. Start with 16 Wis and 16 CHA, you will end up the same. A bit feat shuffling, perhaps. It frees up 2 points to use in whatever. (CON)
I'm afraid he wouldn't manage to get Dragon form that way
Yes he would, but looking closer it would cost to much. Getting EWF and LS at lvl 39 and 40, and giving up epic prowess altogether. That ain't worth getting 40 hp's for. Disregard. To much food in these days slow my brain down.....
I tried this and found I liked Bard 20/Druid 17/Monk 3 instead. Bard 20 for lingering. Druid 17 for mass heals. Monk 3 for a little monk speed. (Also, Druid 16 gives you elemental forms for more versatility in leveling.)
Also, I took KD and Improved Crit: Unarmed.
Last time I tested dragons, WF, EWF, WS and EWS didn't work with unarmed as dragon. Only improved crit did. Also, I don't take IKD anymore cause it doesn't give you the 'bonus' anymore.
A fully buffed singing dragon in the halls of adv training gave me 59AB and easily hit 85AC (could have been higher). Very nice indeed.
-pc
Quote: Posted 12/28/05 21:05:47 (GMT) -- pc_g0d
I tried this and found I liked Bard 20/Druid 17/Monk 3 instead. Bard 20 for lingering. Druid 17 for mass heals. Monk 3 for a little monk speed. (Also, Druid 16 gives you elemental forms for more versatility in leveling.)
Also, I took KD and Improved Crit: Unarmed.
Last time I tested dragons, WF, EWF, WS and EWS didn't work with unarmed as dragon. Only improved crit did. Also, I don't take IKD anymore cause it doesn't give you the 'bonus' anymore.
A fully buffed singing dragon in the halls of adv training gave me 59AB and easily hit 85AC (could have been higher). Very nice indeed.
-pc
Now WF feats work, they patched that up. About IKD, are you talking about the bonus to AB? Cause IKD should give you anyhow a bonus vs the discipline skill check the one you try to knock down has to make, which can be useful when fighting high STR fighter with ESF: discipline
WF (unarmed) feats DO NOT WORK with dragon shape. check the combat log, not the character screen. only improved critical (unarmed) has any effect on dragon shape (and epic prowess). also keep in mind the changes in str due to shifting and the fact that the dragon has +6 claws.
the best way to test is to make the same build twice. #1 taking wf feats and #2 without and compare the resulting ab.
That's very bad news... did they fix that only for shifter forms then?
I don't think they fixed anything. weapon focus and such work with forms that use weapons (drider, risen lord, etc...). any unarmed forms use creature weapons and not fists, so the feats don't apply. I'm not sure the logic behind improved critical, but it does work for some reason.
I read somewhere it got fixed, but you are right it did not. The character sheet shows the AB with WF/EWF but the combat log shows that it does not work. Oh well, that means two feats to change...
Quote: Posted 12/26/05 22:11:25 (GMT) -- treefq
The format is from the excel spreadsheet utility, I just got used to reading it, sorry about that.
I haven't seen the original posting but most people here like it better if only the class that levels up is shown (15" monitors are still very popular it seems ). The CBC allows a lot of changes to the default output format but I don't think all of them give a better result. _________________ Customize Character override hak: Modify/dye armor, cloak, ... change portrait, head, tail, wings, tattoos, hair/skin color, rename, glowing eyes... in game.
Nice build.
Don't sweat the formating. Personally find it easy to read and nice to have feats & skill allocations included like that. Makes it easy for newbs like myself to try out and follow your build progression!
Cheers.
It seems clear you have not seen the original formatting...luckily The present formatting is due to the almighty griphook
Ya good point.
It seems clear you have not seen the original formatting...luckily