Inspired by the Dragonsinger I decided to build my bard dragon.
WARNING: If you have issues with xp penalty and/or alignment changes this is not the build for you!
Alignment changes are necessary in this build (from LN to NN and back) and you'll have an xp penalty in epic. The problems regarding xp penalty and alignment changes can be mitigated with proper lvling (but decreasing one increases the other), I didn't go through the effort of finding the "best" solution regarding this matter, I'll let you figure it out yourself.

Starting STR and DEX can be a problem, I'm aware of it, but your stats are spread thin. If you feel you can give up a skill lower starting INT to 13 (to preserve access to exp/IE) and CHA to 14, set STR and DEX to 10 and give up Armor skin for Great CHA. Lvl 5 bardic spells will be available later this way.
You could also start with STR 8, DEX 8, WIS 18, CHA 14 to get Dragon Shape 3 lvls earlier (33rd lvl). Last two stats bump into CHA to end at 16
Preepic feats can be changed to suits one's needs, I took exp/IE for defense and safe casting, zen archery for ranged AB, blind fight for concealed opponents. Epic feats are quite set, armor skin could be swapped for epic prowess. Your choice.

Off with the build now:


DRAGON'S SONG
Bard(20), Druid(14), Monk(6)
Human, variable alignment (start LN)
PvM playable 1-40, untested PvP

STR: 9
DEX: 8
CON: 10
WIS: 17 (30)
INT: 14
CHA: 15 (16)

Hitpoints: 280
Skillpoints: 301
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 23/36/21
BAB: 25
AB (max, naked): 24 (melee), 35 (ranged) (+20 melee as a dragon, no buffs)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 30/30 (+14 as a dragon, no buffs)
Spell Casting: Bard(6),Druid(7)
Alignment Changes: 4

You all know dragon's stats, right?

SKILLS
Concentration 42(42), Discipline 43(42), Perform 42(45), Spellcraft 39(41), Taunt 42(45), Tumble 40(39), UMD 42(45), 11 points leftover


LVL BREAKDOWN
01: Druid(1): Expertise, Improved Expertise
02: Monk(1): M: (Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist)
03: Druid(2): Extend Spell
04: Druid(3): WIS+1, (WIS=18)
05: Druid(4)
06: Druid(5): Zen Archery
07: Monk(2): M: (Deflect Arrows)
08: Monk(3): WIS+1, (WIS=19)
09: Monk(4): Blind Fight
10: Bard(1): *Alignment Change* (NN)
11: Bard(2)
12: Bard(3): WIS+1, Curse Song, (WIS=20)
13: Bard(4)
14: Druid(6)
15: Druid(7): Empower Spell
16: Druid(8): WIS+1, (WIS=21)
17: Druid(9)
18: Druid(10): Improved Critical: Unarmed
19: Druid(11)
20: Druid(12): WIS+1, (WIS=22)
21: Monk(5): Great Wisdom I, (WIS=23), *Alignment Change*(LN)
22: Bard(5): *Alignment Change*(NN)
23: Bard(6)
24: Bard(7): WIS+1, Great Wisdom II, (WIS=25)
25: Bard(8)
26: Bard(9)
27: Bard(10): Great Wisdom III, (WIS=26)
28: Druid(13): WIS+1, (WIS=27)
29: Bard(11)
30: Bard(12): Great Wisdom IV, (WIS=28)
31: Bard(13)
32: Bard(14): WIS+1, (WIS=29)
33: Bard(15): Armor Skin
34: Bard(16)
35: Bard(17)
36: Druid(14): WIS+1, Dragon Shape, (WIS=30)
37: Bard(18)
38: Bard(19)
39: Bard(20): Lasting Inspiration
40: Monk(6): CHA+1, M: (Knockdown, Improved Knockdown), (CHA=16), *Alignment Change*(LN)


SKILL BREAKDOWN
01: Concentration(4), Spellcraft(4), Save(20),
02: Discipline(5), Tumble(5),
03: Concentration(2), Save(5),
04: Concentration(1), Save(6),
05: Concentration(1), Save(6),
06: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(5), Save(1),
07: Discipline(5), Tumble(5),
08: Discipline(1), Tumble(1), Save(5),
09: Discipline(1), Tumble(1), Save(5),
10: Concentration(4), Discipline(1), Perform(3), Taunt(13), Tumble(1), UMD(10),
11: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Perform(3), Spellcraft(5), Taunt(1), Tumble(1),
12: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Perform(3), Taunt(1), Tumble(1), UMD(5),
13: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Taunt(1), Tumble(1), Save(3),
14: Concentration(1), Save(6),
15: Concentration(1), Save(6),
16: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(5), Save(1),
17: Concentration(1), Save(6),
18: Concentration(1), Save(6),
19: Concentration(1), Save(6),
20: Concentration(1), Save(6),
21: Discipline(8), Tumble(8),
22: Concentration(2), Discipline(1), Spellcraft(5), Taunt(9), Tumble(1), UMD(10),
23: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Perform(3), Taunt(1), Tumble(1),
24: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Taunt(1), Save(4),
25: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Perform(3), Taunt(1), Save(1),
26: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Spellcraft(5), Taunt(1),
27: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Taunt(1), Tumble(4), UMD(5),
28: Concentration(1), Save(6),
29: Concentration(1), Discipline(2), Perform(3), Taunt(2),
30: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Taunt(1), Save(4),
31: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Spellcraft(5), Taunt(1),
32: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Perform(3), Taunt(1), Tumble(5), UMD(5),
33: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Perform(3), Taunt(1), Save(1),
34: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Perform(6), Taunt(1),
35: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Perform(5), Taunt(1),
36: Concentration(1), Spellcraft(5), Save(1),
37: Concentration(1), Discipline(2), Perform(5), Taunt(2), Tumble(5), UMD(5),
38: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Perform(1), Taunt(1), Save(3),
39: Concentration(1), Discipline(1), Perform(1), Taunt(1), UMD(2), Save(1),
40: Discipline(1), Save(6)

Feedback and constructive criticism are gladly appreciated.

Cheers,
Kail
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Vinceṛ
Vinceṛ Well, since you say this was inspired by the Dragonsinger build, what are this build's advantages over the original? Why would someone want to choose this over the other?

Looks nice.
_________________
Surely, without war there would be no loss - hence, no mourning, no grief, no pain, no misery...
Quote: Posted 12/30/05 23:21:32 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ

Well, since you say this was inspired by the Dragonsinger build, what are this build's advantages over the original? Why would someone want to choose this over the other?

Looks nice.

Readability of the OP apart you mean?
Jokes apart, monk's bonus to AC and attack progression from the start (and access to monk's gear), usable 5th lvl bard spells from the moment you get them, higher AC (+3), better saves, better skill selection, KD/IKD, monk endurance, still mind, purity of body, 6 stunning fists per day at DC 40 vs 2/day, IMO better lvling and feat selection (exp/IE can really save your day and you can cast in exp. mode, blind fight for concealed opponents)... uh, and slightly better carrying capacity atthe start to say it all
WF feats apart (not useful in dragon form anyhow) you have slightly worse AB (-1), lower HPs (but feel free to swap IE for toughness) and later LS which is the worst part of it all, IMO.

Overall I'd say it's neater but mainly it's just mine version of that concept. Pick yours, the Dragonsinger is a good build that needed some refinement, this one is the way I would have done it.

Cheers,
Kail
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Tramontate stelle
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Vinceṛ
Vinceṛ
Quote: Posted 12/30/05 23:57:51 (GMT) -- Kail Pendragon

Quote: Posted 12/30/05 23:21:32 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ

Well, since you say this was inspired by the Dragonsinger build, what are this build's advantages over the original? Why would someone want to choose this over the other?

Looks nice.

Readability of the OP apart you mean?
Jokes apart, monk's bonus to AC and attack progression from the start (and access to monk's gear), usable 5th lvl bard spells from the moment you get them, higher AC (+3), better saves, better skill selection, KD/IKD, monk endurance, still mind, purity of body, 6 stunning fists per day at DC 40 vs 2/day, IMO better lvling and feat selection (exp/IE can really save your day and you can cast in exp. mode, blind fight for concealed opponents)... uh, and slightly better carrying capacity atthe start to say it all
WF feats apart (not useful in dragon form anyhow) you have slightly worse AB (-1), lower HPs (but feel free to swap IE for toughness) and later LS which is the worst part of it all, IMO.

Overall I'd say it's neater but mainly it's just mine version of that concept. Pick yours, the Dragonsinger is a good build that needed some refinement, this one is the way I would have done it.

Cheers,
Kail

Well, it took you half an hour but you managed to bring up some good points

You failed to note that you get (I)KD at level 40 whereas the original build picks Disarm at 18 which could be KD aswell. But that's about it, really. I hereby baptize this build as Dragonsinger, the Improved Version

This build is superior, especially if we're talking about the final outcome at level 40. Good job.
_________________
Surely, without war there would be no loss - hence, no mourning, no grief, no pain, no misery...

Edited By FinneousPJ on 12/31/05 00:10

It looks good. I like 6 levels of Monk as opposed to my 2 levels.

But for a few more differences:

1. AB is not -1, its -4.
2. No level 8 druid spells: Premonition
3. Getting Lasting Inspiration at level 39. One of the objectives for Dragonsinger was earliest possible Lasting insp and Dragon Shape. I choose to get Lasting first since in a party I'd be more helpful with full song buff and then getting more xp/hour then soloing.
4. I would agree that I hated opening up the level 5 bard songs only at 40.
5. buffs such as war song and haste last 6 rounds longer.

Thanks for your build Kail. I am flattered to have inspired you and I like your changes.
Quote: Posted 01/01/06 22:02:30 (GMT) -- treefq

It looks good. I like 6 levels of Monk as opposed to my 2 levels.

But for a few more differences:

1. AB is not -1, its -4.
2. No level 8 druid spells: Premonition
3. Getting Lasting Inspiration at level 39. One of the objectives for Dragonsinger was earliest possible Lasting insp and Dragon Shape. I choose to get Lasting first since in a party I'd be more helpful with full song buff and then getting more xp/hour then soloing.
4. I would agree that I hated opening up the level 5 bard songs only at 40.
5. buffs such as war song and haste last 6 rounds longer.

Thanks for your build Kail. I am flattered to have inspired you and I like your changes.

As I said answering to Finn, I consider your build a good one that just needed refinement (we all post to know what can be improved in our builds, don't we?). Mine was inspired by the Dragonsinger but it is slightly different and has a different playability also

Answering your points:

1. only in human form. Shifted it's -1, sorry WF/EWF don't work in dragon form and I was comparing dragon AB when answering to Finn. If one feels the need for WF/EWF they can be worked in, I went more defensive and got exp/IE and AS.
2.yes, but greater stoneskin is not much behind premonition. Sunbeam, sunburst, finger of death and nature's balance are surely missed instead
3.I was sorry too about late LS, you can get it in 3 lvls earlier at the cost of delaying dragon form till 39th lvl. Earlier LS is a definite advantage of your build
4.You can fix your starting stats for that
5.they do, but that amounts to only 15% more, 46 rounds vs 40. I think 40 rounds is enough already, but in prolonged fights you have a slight edge

I liked to get monk 6 and its boni, but that had a cost. Mainly that was late LS and lvl 8 druid spells. Thank you again for having been the pioneer of "monastic singing dragons"
And kudos to the Dragonsinger

Cheers,
Kail
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Vinceṛ
Vinceṛ

Edited By Kail Pendragon on 01/02/06 02:23

Aack! I guess I missed the part that talked about EWF not carrying over to dragon shape! I was under the impression EWF did. but like you said if it doesn't then drop it! waste of feat. (I'll have to plug into the leveler mod both versions to check it out)

The one thing that bugs me is dragons merge armor only. I will say in my real playing of Dragonsinger curse song decreases the same HP in human and dragon form. So it seems that may be a bug. I mention this because I am over 65 perform non shifted, 45 shifted. I tested witha pure druid and I noticed shifted forms do not benefit from WF/EWF even though the character sheet says so. Do it yourself and check the combat log, and when you check the dragon form remember you've got +6 claws.

Perform 65 human, 45 dragon but bard song staying the same? Interesting. I'll test it. I believe you have some gloves to raise your perform skill, isn't it?

Cheers,
Kail I do have gloves on that give like +5 perform, but I was under the impression that gloves are not considered armor, so they wont merge.

I ran some test in the Novice to Epic mod, but I guess I didn't do it right because I forgot to fight mobs, I was going by the character sheet alone. It did list different numbers though.

I did 39 druid / 1 monk with the monk level coming in after character level 20.

With: Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Focus, Improved Crit, Epic Prowess at level 40:

AB +48 crit 19 - 20/ x2

With Epic Prowess at level 40:

AB +45 crit 20/ x2

But as I forgot to actually fight something those numbers don't mean squat. back to the drawing board. Ok here are my numbers, which prove to me, everyone else is correct

39 Druid / 1 monk: Monk taken at level 40 fighting the Black Slaad.

First character had the following Feats:
Weapon Focus: Unarmed
Epic Weapon Focus:Unarmed
Improved Critical: Unarmed
Epic Prowess

Attack schedule: 49/46/43/40/37

Second Character had none of the above feats:

Attack Schedule: 48/45/42/39/36

So the only thing that affects AB in Shape is Epic Prowess

Edited By treefq on 01/02/06 18:29

*imagines Dragon singing in the bath tub*

-DaMouse
Quote: Posted 01/02/06 18:44:30 (GMT) -- DaMouse404

*imagines Dragon singing in the bath tub*

-DaMouse



Pity there's no "Dragon singing in the bath tub" art to post, eh-eh


I did some tests with dragon form today. Thay have ben done with my other dragon build, the Order of Jormundgandr, you can see the results here. Source of buffs apart, the results are valid for this build too...or for any dragon build.

Cheers,
Kail
_________________
Dilegua notte
Tramontate stelle
Tramontate stelle
All'alba vinceṛ
Vinceṛ
Vinceṛ

Edited By Kail Pendragon on 01/02/06 21:57

Quote: Posted 01/02/06 21:56 (GMT) -- Kail Pendragon

Quote: Posted 01/02/06 18:44:30 (GMT) -- DaMouse404

*imagines Dragon singing in the bath tub*

-DaMouse



Pity there's no "Dragon singing in the bath tub" art to post, eh-eh


http://soapmagic.com/images/dragon_color.jpg Behold!

Kurth