"In the cold grey light of dawn, he stood still as stone, alone in the ghostly mist. And we knew then, that if we could see him, it was already too late." --- Maxwell Crowlin, Master Harper
The Zhentarim Agent is an attempt to create an iconic template for a Halfling Fighter/Rogue in PvM play. While Fighter/Rogue/SDs are in abundance, it will become clear that the Zhentarim Agent separates himself from the rest. Strong stealth, strong sneak damage, strong skills, solid hit points, strong against magic saves, strong base damage, HiPS, solid AC, UMD, and can launch a Called Shot from a stealthed position that brings with it 13d6 sneak, Crippling Strike, and 1d8 +21 base damage with a 15-20 base crit range. This character provides for a potent yet balanced blend of both offense and defense.
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Zhentarim Field Agent Playable from Ground to 40, PvM (with particular emphasis 1-28)
Rogue25 Shadowdancer1 Fighter14
Race: Halfling (works well with Human, too) Alignment: Any
Advantages: Stealth/HiPS in Full Plate Can Launch a Called Shot/Sneak Attack that brings Crippling Strike/high sneak damage Excellent Base Damage Use Magic Device Doens't rely on Epic levels to "mature"
Disadvantages Mediocre Saves (but tough against Spells) _____________
Player's Guide to the Zhentarim Agent
1. You are still a Rogue. Play him as such. Flank opponents. Explore in Stealthed mode. Hide in Plain Sight. Don't put yourself in a position where you are the front line. If the front line falls, though, you are more than capable of picking up the slack-- Your ability to melee is still much better than other Rogues.
2. Rely on your Skills. He can find traps. Use your Search. He can recover traps, he can disable traps, and he can set Deadly ones. Scout the field. Assess your enemy. Lay traps that exploit your opponent's weaknesses. Lure your enemy through your minefield, and then slam them with your sneak attack when the explosions thunder about them.
3. UMD: Collect scrolls. Hoard them. You can have some parchment hotkeyed to deal with any situation. Keen, Improved Invisibility, Greater Stoneskin, Premonition, Bulls Strength, Cats Grace, Slow, etc. The UMD will also allow you to access items that are race/class/gender/alignment restricted.
4. Stealth & Dexterity: Even though you are strength-based, it is still a good strategy to find ways to enhance your Dexterity. Stock up on potions of Cat's Grace. Find those little items that grant boosts to Hide/Move Silently. Remember, even though he is in heavy armor, he can easily overcome the armor check penalty due to racial bonuses and feat enhancements. Making sure you keep your stealth scores up insures that HiPS works and that you can beat Spot/Listen checks against the enemy. Remember, just because you wear Full Plate doesn't mean you can't stealth effectively. You can. _______
Final Note: The Zhentarim Agent need not just be a Halfling. The Halfling worked well in this situation for several reasons: +1AB/AC racial adjustment, the ability to 2-hand a scimitar, the +2 move silently bonus (it's like a free skill focus), and the Halfling's Lucky feat (free Luck of Heroes), all provided the right combinations to make him work, and at the same time make him unique. One will be hard-pressed to find strength-based, platemail-wearing Halfling Hipster Rogues in the Realms.
But Humans and Dwarves should work well in this template. Humans can get a better stat spread and more skill points (Listen), and use their extra feat to get Skill Focus: Move Silently. Dwarves would get the best stat spread, another bump to magic saves, but would have to drop a feat (probably Toughness) to get SF: Move Silently. Elves, gnomes and Half-orcs would obviously face an XP penalty __________ _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 10/12/07 15:29
One can trust the Dwarflord to make his rogues STR based. If Odin would ever need a thief, I'm sure he'll call you. If you are capable of going berserk.
If played right, I'm sure this guy would really be effective, and probably alot easier to solo in many settings than most rogues. At least to a certain point as you say. Another thing you excel at, I have noticed over the months, is covering up weak spots in the character, like your ESF: spellcraft to improve saves. It wouldn't cross my mind even in pale moonlight. I would have taken a save booster:roll:. Another thing is your hitpoints, quite a few for a rogue, and totally necessary since hitting him is easier than hitting most rogues.
I would take my helmet off, but Vikings never use them. Instead I'll drink a hefty mug of mead in honor of the Zhentarim half-one.
I really like the concept. I usually don't care much for the 1 SD for HIPS builds, but I do like this build overall. I guess I don't really care for the HIPS only builds due to playing on PWs where a good amount of the bad guys have True Seeing. Truth be told most of said bad guys tend to be crit/sneak immune as well, but you addressed that by going strength heavy. If you do manage to land a stealthed sneak attack an an unsuspecting fool, er creature, with this guy, he will definately feel it. Nice assortment of skills you got going for ya as well.
As always, nice build, and probably what you would expect a Zhentarim Field Agent to be like. _________________ If everyone is thinking alike, then someone is failing to think.
Edited By DarkStar27909 on 01/15/06 05:57
I like it. I wonder, however, what was your reason not to dual-wield?
I would take my helmet off, but Vikings never use them. Instead I'll drink a hefty mug of mead in honor of the Zhentarim half-one.
Just one mug? You jest, right?
Quote: Posted 01/15/06 05:55:40 (GMT) -- DarkStar27909 I really like the concept. I usually don't care much for the 1 SD for HIPS builds, but I do like this build overall. I guess I don't really care for the HIPS only builds due to playing on PWs where a good amount of the bad guys have True Seeing.
I would have to say that I fall in that camp, too. 1 level of SD is cheese....aye, my hypocrisy knows no bounds. To de-cheese, 4 levels of Rogue can easily be dropped for 4 levels od SD (which was how I initially established it). NWN2 will definitely establish a paradigm shift in Shadowdancer Mechanics.
I like it. I wonder, however, what was your reason not to dual-wield?
Well, a few reasons really. One, its expensive. Three feats is a lot.
Two, strength-based two handed scimitar does some nice damage, 1.5 times as I'm sure you're aware. He can pound opponents. Think about it, he can deliver as much damage as a strength-based Fighter with EWS, tops that with 15-20 crit range, then can add some serious sneak damage and crippling strike on top of that, and then, as if that weren't bad enough, he can Hide in Plain Sight wearing heavy armour, set deadly traps, and then utilizes a strong UMD to cast whatever spell he needs. When I playtested him, I was beginning to think he was illegal, because what he can do is just wrong. He abuses the game.
Finally, I envisioned a heavy-shouldered, black-eyed Halfling who concealed his platemail beneath iron-gray robes, and who had a long cruel scimitar strapped to his back. Too many dagger/kukri halflings in this world.
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Yeah, good points. I'm used to dual-wielding with characters who get alot of bonus damage, in this case Sneak damage, to make more use of it with more attacks per round. Also 2 Daggers allow you to go with a shield if needed. On the other hand the Scimitar probably does more damage when you're beating them toe-to-toe. Spending feats should not be an issue for a 14th level Fighter
Yeah, good points. I'm used to dual-wielding with characters who get alot of bonus damage, in this case Sneak damage, to make more use of it with more attacks per round. Also 2 Daggers allow you to go with a shield if needed. On the other hand the Scimitar probably does more damage when you're beating them toe-to-toe. Spending feats should not be an issue for a 14th level Fighter
Right. And in most other Rogue builds, that would be the case. In this one, dualwielding is not necessary because he has a variety of solid damage sources. This gives one the opportunity to shore up the defenses and establish a balance in other aspects of the character, such as acquisition of Stealth feats, Will Save improvements, Called Shot/Blindfighting/Toughness, Shadowdancer prereqs, etc. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Fair enough, I trust your judgment. I haven't played this and you have.
BTW, doesn't every Rogue have the possibility of setting traps and using UMD? Can't every Rogue use a 2-handed weapon? Your "Right. And in most other Rogue builds, that would be the case. In this one, dualwielding is not necessary because he has a variety of solid damage sources." argument suggests that this build has alot more damage sources than other Rogues, but I do not agree. The only thing you have is EWS. And a good Strength score, got to admit Nevertheless, this isn't the only STR based Rogue.
Note that this isn't a personal attack, just pointing that out so people aren't mislead by your argument
I jest. a cartload of mead, then.
He doesn't have three feats to spare, really. His WF and EWF would have to be used for what he uses them for, and others are used to cover up weaknesses. And besides, with a good damage and crippling strike connecting the first blows count. He has 2 better best AB, though it costs two out of total 7 attacks, but still he might connect more as it is. It is definitly better like this vs hard to hit opponents at least, more hits with higher damage.
Fair enough, I trust your judgment. I haven't played this and you have.
BTW, doesn't every Rogue have the possibility of setting traps and using UMD? Can't every Rogue use a 2-handed weapon? Your "Right. And in most other Rogue builds, that would be the case. In this one, dualwielding is not necessary because he has a variety of solid damage sources." argument suggests that this build has alot more damage sources than other Rogues, but I do not agree. The only thing you have is EWS. And a good Strength score, got to admit Nevertheless, this isn't the only STR based Rogue.
Note that this isn't a personal attack, just pointing that out so people aren't mislead by your argument
OK, I can see playing Devil's Advocate, but now yer just beating yerself up with yer own stick. By your own admission, you like to dual wield rogues, so as to get as many sneak attack opportunities as possible, as that is pretty much the only way to damage anyone with yer weps. Grizz pointed out (and rightly so) that this build did not require the extra attacks for more sneak damage opportunity, due to the fact that he does not need to rely on sneak attacks to damage others. And by not taking those feats, he was able to boost his will saves, get SD requirements, and boost stealth checks, all of which you would rarely see a strength rogue do. Yes, any rogue can wield a 2 handed wep, but how many of them will be able to actually damage anybody with said wep, and have higher then normal will saves, and stealth checks?
Not sure if you weren't just understanding what Grizz was trying to say, hopefully this helps clarify it some. _________________ If everyone is thinking alike, then someone is failing to think.
Perhaps you are right. I was just asking questions anyway
Quote: DarkStar27909 ...you like to dual wield rogues, so as to get as many sneak attack opportunities as possible, as that is pretty much the only way to damage anyone with yer weps
I disagree. Let me explain.
If this build was to dual-wield Daggers, you would get 4 APR at 1d4 +10 +6 (2 +10 +6 = 18 average) plus 2 APR at 1d4 +5 +6 (2 +5 +6 = 13 average), which makes for a total average potential damage of 4 * 18 + 2 * 13 = 98 per round. You would also have the chance to change to Dagger/Shield if needed.
As it is, you have 4 APR at 1d6 +15 +6 (3 +15 +6 = 24), which makes for a total average potential damage of 4 * 24 = 96.
Of course it is obvious that dual-wielding works the best when your opponent has low AC because you have numerous attacks per round and you want them all to hit.
Against a high AC opponent the Scimitar is more effective as you will not be connecting your attacks so often, you have to make each of those hurt.
I am willing to give up this argument by saying that I would go dual-wielding with this build, but I cannot claim that dual-wielding is better. Personal preference, personal preference...
Friends?
EDIT: the point in my calculations is that dual-wielding does not only increase your sneak attack damage but it makes effective use of EWS too.
I did not include critical hits because if you cannot sneak attack your enemy, more often than not the reason is because he's Crit/Sneak immune.
He doesn't have three feats to spare, really. His WF and EWF would have to be used for what he uses them for, and others are used to cover up weaknesses. And besides, with a good damage and crippling strike connecting the first blows count. He has 2 better best AB, though it costs two out of total 7 attacks, but still he might connect more as it is. It is definitly better like this vs hard to hit opponents at least, more hits with higher damage.
I could live without Stealthy, IC and Toughness. You are right, however
I am willing to give up this argument by saying that I would go dual-wielding with this build, but I cannot claim that dual-wielding is better. Personal preference, personal preference...
You bring up some good points, Finn, and points I did consider. Dualwielding is certainly a good way to go. It does change the landscape of the character, and probably changes it enough that the character would look slightly different (not only do feats have to be dropped, but one has to change starting Dex to 15 or 16.) By this point, then, one has to question why not go Dex-based and get Epic Dodge? And then we're back to the dexy-dualwielder. Of course, that question needs to be asked of every little halfling that goes strength-based. Why? Why go strength-based? The answer, of course, is "Why not?" _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
really creative build, i like this a lot. the only thing that bothers me is the quite poor ac assuming you wont find magic vestment scrolls or improved invisibility in every shop. won't it be better to go sword+board when playing this build alone?
Edited By dust7 on 01/23/06 22:27
Quote: Posted 01/23/06 22:16:09 (GMT) -- dust7
really creative build, i like this a lot. the only thing that bothers me is the quite poor ac assuming you wont find magic vestment scrolls or improved invisibility in every shop. won't it be better to go sword+board when playing this build alone?
Acrually, I'm not sure why his AC is considered poor. It's 1 better than any other strength-based two-handed meleer that you'll find, and this is due to his racial adjustment.
However, I see your point. I often find the sword/board combo more effective for many builds that don't advertise the sword/board technique. Enough can't be said of AC, no matter what level or world you play. I'm currently playing the Runes of Blood, and already I find myself going sword and board, but only out of sheer necessity because you start completely naked, and you don't even have a toothbrush or buttwipe to see you through the night. I figured that by the time one gets HiPS at Level 8, and given the fact that he can actually take a hit, I would gamble and go for broke and put all his damage into one basket. A wiser man than myself would focus in a smaller weapon and pick up the large shield. But again, in this build I'm already trying to fight all the Dex penalties that heavy armor incurs. I suppose another -1 or -2 isn't that big of a deal.....
So yes, I think sword and board is fine way to go. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Quote: Posted 01/24/06 01:32:59 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord Acrually, I'm not sure why his AC is considered poor. It's 1 better than any other strength-based two-handed meleer that you'll find.
that's just because i consider every strength-based two-handed meleer's AC poor.
Nice assortment of skills you got going for ya as well. 
Nevertheless, this isn't the only STR based Rogue.
