A dragon build which is not too cheesey and gets DS at 28th lvl! All the druidical forms available, high caster lvl, penetrates toolset SR, SF feats, monk's attack progression, boni to AC, endurance, deflect arrows, endurance, evasion, plus a little pinch of holy protection and deeper insight from the forces of nature (CoT). This build can easily buff WIS to the cap just with owl's insight, benefitting of a +6 AC, spell DC, stunning fist DC, will saves (and AB with zen archery). STR is easily buffed up via emp. bull's strenght, aura of vitality and blood frenzy, reaching the cap with a lucky roll. You ain't no cleric, so no endless list of buffs but you still have some nice spells to protect yourself from harm. Otherwise make friends with a cleric
Hitpoints: 408 Skillpoints: 250 Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 26/36/22 Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8, Mind Effects: +2, evasion BAB: 25 AB (max, naked): 27 (melee), 26 (unarmed), 38 (ranged) AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 33/33 (39 with capped WIS) Spell Casting: Druid(9) Stunning Fist: 6/day, DC 42 (48 with capped WIS) Spell DC: 22+Spell lvl, 28+Spell lvl conjuration (+6 with capped WIS)
Dragon Shape unbuffed stats
STR 48 DEX 36 CON 32 HP: 868 AC (naked): 64 (66 -2 due to size) AB: 49 (51 -2 due to size), shows 45 on the sheet DR 40/+6 Immune to mind affecting effects, paralysis and sneak attacks Fort: 35 Ref: 35 (evasion) Will: 35
Feedback and constructive criticism is appreciated.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 01/26/06 19:07
Drop Epic Reflexes for WF: Unarmed and Epic Prowess for EWF: Unarmed. Will gain you a net +2 to AB in Dragon Shape. If you really want to keep epic reflexes for the evasion, you cold drop Armor Skin or Epic Spell Focus instead (spell DC isn't that high anyway, and you will probably do more damage in combat than by spells). If you drop Armor Skin and ESpF to keep Epic Prowess, you can gain 3 AB.
Depends on where you prefer to focus - spells or combat damage.
Nice build!
TM
Thanks! About WF/EWF unarmed, they do not work in dragon form (or in elemental form for the matter). Do not trust the character sheet, it lies. Trust only combat debugging.
Spell DC is just 2 points less than max, one might want to focus in evocation rather than conjuration though.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Thanks! About WF/EWF unarmed, they do not work in dragon form (or in elemental form for the matter). Do not trust the character sheet, it lies. Trust only combat debugging.
Spell DC is just 2 points less than max, one might want to focus in evocation rather than conjuration though.
Cheers, Kail
I thought they had fixed that bug in the last patch? It still doesn't work? In that case, never mind....
TM
I too believed so until I tested, with v 1.66, and WF/EWF do not work. The character sheet shows AB as if the feats worked, but they don't. Only IC: unarmed works. All you've got when shifted is EP, STR boni (+19 AB), +6 dragon claws and -2 AB due to size (huge), and the sheet doesn't show the +6 from dragon claws. Give a look here for my findings about DS with a cleric/druid/monk build
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
I heard reports of WF not working but EWF working. You might want to try that. (WF = +1, EWF = +2 (stacks) under normal circumstances) _________________ Inactive for a while
Neither WF nor EWF work in DS or in elemental form. You might be induced in thinking they do because the sheet is... messed up basically.
Let's say you make a build with WF/EWF unarmed.
The character sheet will show: BAB +19 STR bonus + 1 WF + 2 EWF +1 EP
The reality is: BAB +19 STR bonus +1 EP +6 dragon claws - 2 huge size
Let's say BAB= 25. That means: AB (sheet)= 48 AB (real)= 49
If you don't take WF/EWF the sheet will show AB = 45, four points off the mark. The real AB is from tests using combat debugging. I'm pretty sure about it, I tested it extensively with my cleric/druid/monk. BTW the sheet also lies about your AC since it doesn't show the -2 due to size. There's a lot of people believing otherwise, but the sad reality is that WF/EWF:unarmed do not work with shifted forms. IC: unarmed works (for some mysterious reason) as does EP.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
I will just say this. I always play my own builds only, by trying and failing. But if I ever need advice on a DF build, I will ask you first Kail. Nice Dragon again!
Edit: typo's. wow, you're fast, Kail.
Edited By Grimnir77 on 01/28/06 15:34
I'm extremely honoured by your remarks *humbly bows head*
Uh, and I'm still working on new dragons... _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
I have another suggestion for making him a bit more playable at lower levels. It gives up the Spell pen feats and only get to caster level 26, so it won't automatically beat a 32 SR, but I don't think the build will be relying on spells once you get DS anyway. DS gets delayed to level 30. What you gain is monk levels pre-epic (for WIS armor bonus, kama weapon focus, monk unarmed attack progression for natural forms earlier, tumble and discipline dumps earlier), 4 CoT levels pre-epic (for the full 6 base attacks per round unarmed, and picks up Disarm/Imp disarm from the bonus feats). Ends up Druid 24/Monk 8/Cot 8. It also gets IKD earlier (before DS). I mostly kept the same feats as you did (including Conjuration foci). You could drop the conjuration foci for spell pen feats if you prefer the penetration instead. Let me know what you think.
Druid(24), Monk(8), Champion of Torm(8), Human STR: 10 DEX: 10 CON: 12 WIS: 18 (34) INT: 14 CHA: 8 Hitpoints: 376 Skillpoints: 285 Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 31/39/26 BAB: 26 AB (max, naked): 28 (melee), 39 (ranged) AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 33/33 Skills: Concentration 43(44), Discipline 43(43), Hide 43(43), Move Silently 43(43), Spellcraft 42(44), Tumble 40(40), 31 left over
Like I said, the main goal was to make him a bit tougher earlier, not to really improve the final stats. He gets DS 2 levels later, but has 1 more attack, IKD and Imp Disarm when he finally gets it. Let me know what you think.
TM
Since the build already has 8 Monk, why not go with 9 for Improved Evasion, TM? And if you're going Monk 9 for Improved Evasion, why not grab another level for +1 AC? And with Monk 11 you'd get... _________________ Too long I have suffered the desert sands of time~ But as I drown in darkness it will release the sign~ My soul will leave this mortal coil of flesh and earthly life~ to fly into the mist of night, into the nightside eclipse~ - by Emperor
Very well done Tattoed Monk! The Followers of the Dragon are increasing in numbers, I see
The result is very good, and even if I miss SP one can always fit in the SP feats (dropping expertise, improved disarm and EP) for a final SP=30+1d20 which gives only a 5% chance of failure vs maximum SR (32). To be noted that creeping doom bypasses SR:evillol: What to choose, really depends on the environment and whether you prefer to always be in DS once you achieve it (in which case forget SP) or to be in human form more often for the thrill of punishing the defilers of nature with wrathful spells. You also have a 5% chance of getting your buffs dispelled, btw. Another thing you miss is the infinite elemental shapes (which have a tendency to better fit through the doors than a dragon )
You forgot to mention that you improved the saves too and got some more skillpoints, which is never bad. A dragon who can knockdown and disarm is a mean machine indeed. Size does matter
Nature's Wyrm, altough I didn't state it openly, is the build that achieves DS at the earliest possible lvl. That was my focus. And, luckily, going all druid preepic, doesn't make it tough to lvl. Yours needs just 2 lvls more to get DS but you get so much back (4 att per round, earlier KD/IKD, earlier monk boni, disarm, better saves, more skill points, ...).
Mate you achieved quite a result there! Had to give up some casting power/efficiency but DS efficiency is indeed improved.
PS: I can almost imagine nature's wyrm as an elder druid whose disciple is your build, a younger man who has a stronger taste for hand to hand fight and thus concentrates a "little" more on the physical aspects of his role as protector of nature...but really just a little BTW, you should post your build finding it a nice, inspiring name
Kudos to you! _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Since the build already has 8 Monk, why not go with 9 for Improved Evasion, TM? And if you're going Monk 9 for Improved Evasion, why not grab another level for +1 AC? And with Monk 11 you'd get...
11th lvl gives you immunity to poison which you already have
One could go Druid 22/ CoT 8/ Monk 10, giving up any hopes of penetration (man, did I just say that?!? ) and losing one epic feat (EP?) for the AC increase at 10th lvl. Might be worth it. To be noted that with 24 druid lvls owl's insight alone caps your wisdom with 22 lvl you'll miss the +1 AC you just got from monk, unless you have wis enhancing gear that merges in DS. IE can be useful but you've got various DR/protection from the elements spells available,good ref saves (26 +9 vs spells) and evasion already. Seems like IE is not that necessary.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
One could go Druid 22/ CoT 8/ Monk 10, giving up any hopes of penetration...
I think a Monk has to live in celibacy nonetheless, so it's not a valid point. _________________ Too long I have suffered the desert sands of time~ But as I drown in darkness it will release the sign~ My soul will leave this mortal coil of flesh and earthly life~ to fly into the mist of night, into the nightside eclipse~ - by Emperor
Since the build already has 8 Monk, why not go with 9 for Improved Evasion, TM? And if you're going Monk 9 for Improved Evasion, why not grab another level for +1 AC? And with Monk 11 you'd get...
Well, my goal was to make it mature earlier. At first I just moved the 4 monk levels pre-epic and added the 4 CoT levels pre-epic (leaving it at Monk 6/CoT 8/Druid 26). But that meant you still don't get IKD till level 40. The 2 more monk levels were for the skill dumps and to get IKD 13 levels earlier (at 27 instead of 40). Taking any more monk costs the druid bonus feat. If you do that, I would make it Monk 10/CoT 10/Druid 20, which would get the bonus feat back as a CoT bonus. Again, this means giving up on spell penetration, so spells will be primarily for buffing or for use against non-SR enemies, but that's still not bad.
Kail - Thanks! Glad you like it. I posted it here because it's really a modification of your build rather than a completely new build. I was looking at the Order of Jormungandr build as well, and trying to figure out a way to get DP and DS earlier, then figured to skip DP and just use CoT to get the full attack schedule outright.
TM
Oh you're all to serious... I was trying to make fun of how almost every level of Monk gives something new and when you start getting Monk levels you always "have to" get the next level for the next treat and so on. I am a misunderstood genius myself _________________ Too long I have suffered the desert sands of time~ But as I drown in darkness it will release the sign~ My soul will leave this mortal coil of flesh and earthly life~ to fly into the mist of night, into the nightside eclipse~ - by Emperor
You're not, I got your joke and I bent over laughing
But your remark made my brain think about the possibility of adding monk lvls and so the analysis came out by itself
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Kail - Thanks! Glad you like it. I posted it here because it's really a modification of your build rather than a completely new build. I was looking at the Order of Jormungandr build as well, and trying to figure out a way to get DP and DS earlier, then figured to skip DP and just use CoT to get the full attack schedule outright.
TM
I still think you should post yours, really, maybe just add a link to Nature's Wyrm as the build that inspired yours.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Hey, Kail - does the armor merging include monk gloves or boots? I just thought of that, and can't playtest till I get home tonight....
TM
Edited By Tattoed Monk on 01/30/06 19:37
It does not.
Armor includes armor (chest item), shield (but not offhand weapons AFAIK*) and helmets. However, as all these properties are copied onto your hide item when you're shapeshifting all +X AC, even different types, convert to Deflection bonus (since that's what a hide item has). Thus you do not gain +10 AC by using a +5 armor and a +5 shield. Finally, no shapes merge bracers/gloves/gauntlets.
AFAIK
* = I mean that offhand weapons never merge yet a shield in the slot does. If you merge armor you don't merge your main hand weapon. This is just for clarification. _________________ Too long I have suffered the desert sands of time~ But as I drown in darkness it will release the sign~ My soul will leave this mortal coil of flesh and earthly life~ to fly into the mist of night, into the nightside eclipse~ - by Emperor
Edited By FinneousPJ on 01/30/06 19:46
As Finn says
Hey Kail,
question for you off topic. you play on Three towns? I am thinking of starting a new server to that one.
I have nothing to add to either build. I think both of them are great. I'm going to build one of each b/c I think they are so incredibly thought out. This is what I strive for but alas my first attempt was a total bust. In due time I will have the build gig down pat and will be able to post one here without shame.
Thanks for sharing Kail and thank you Tattooed Monk for adding your ideas for it as well.
I think that you guys have a winner for the Ultimate Dragon Kin
Edited By Tathar on 01/31/06 17:01
The main limitation is the AB, which tops out at around 55 fully buffed. In that sense, I think the Order of Jormungandr build is superior thanks to the powerful Cleric buffs. This one isn't bad, and does mature earlier. It will do very well in low-medium magic worlds, but may be outclasses by regular melee builds in high magic worlds where they can get their AB and AC higher.
TM
I tested this build (Kail's not TM's) in The Arena of Champions mod lastnight. I have also tested the Dragon Kin listed in the Epic Character Build (ECB) found here as well.
Kail’s build did quite well vs the Death Wurm but when I got to the Balrog Lord he got hit more often than the one found on the Epic Character Build page although his AC was higher than the ECB ones. (Has anyone else here tried The Arena of Champions mod?)
I'm going to continue with these character build test until I find one that can defeat the Balrog Lord. So far I have yet to find one build to do this. Most of the builds I have tried, die at the Death Wurms challenge. Only a Dragon Kin has been able to defeat him and unlock the Balrog Lord for the next challenge. That includes the ECB characters.
Just thought that you would be interested to hear about this build testing. So far the Balrog Lord is the champion as I have not defeated him yet. _________________ Rollan Kellian, Paladin
The Drakon Kin aka Puff the Magic Dragon (v.3 IIRC) is an impressive build. I'm curious about what this Balrog Lord is like. Anyhow, you might want to try the Order of Jormundgandr: cleric and druid buffs together make him quite a beast even in human form. It takes a couple of minutes just to cast all the buffs, then DS and even without a single item you are a mean killing machine. Let us know how does it fare!
PS: I haven't yet tried the mod, but I could give it a try
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
I will give that one a shot too. In the mean time here is a link to The Arena of Champions.
The balrog lord is one mean beast. Best I can tell he is fashioned after the balrog in the first LotR. The one Gandalf fought for 30 days and nights. He has no weakness'.
Read the players guide to that mod. Its really helpful getting to know the mod. Its merely a build tester but its fun b/c it has a deathmatch in it where when you defeat one monster it unlocks the next one on the list. There is a holy war you can unlock also. My best so far is defeating the death wurm. Not good enough to unlock the holy war. _________________ Tathar Longbow, Warden
IMO the mod in question isn't good for testing characters because it's quite focused on the items. You get +7 weapons in the beginning... _________________ Fanget av begravelsen pines vi av guds godhet ingen flammer, intet hat de hadde rett vi kom til Helvete...
IMO the mod in question isn't good for testing characters because it's quite focused on the items. You get +7 weapons in the beginning...
You have a good point there but the mod requires level 40 characters and the monsters on the death match list are extremly hard to take down. So those enhanced weapons are needed.
Could you recommend a mod that you feel is better to test them in? _________________ Tathar Longbow, Warden
Edited By Tathar on 02/02/06 17:19
People seem to like the Novice to Epic Character Maker. I use my own because it's (obviously) the best _________________ Fanget av begravelsen pines vi av guds godhet ingen flammer, intet hat de hadde rett vi kom til Helvete...
~ Burzum - Hvis Lyset Tar Oss
Why not publish it then? I'd be interested to see it in action.
The Novice to Epic Mod has its limitations for sure.
Why not publish it then? I'd be interested to see it in action.
The Novice to Epic Mod has its limitations for sure.
I dare not publish it because it's not polished, it's like a raw version Perhaps I'll get back at developing it some day. _________________ Fanget av begravelsen pines vi av guds godhet ingen flammer, intet hat de hadde rett vi kom til Helvete...
~ Burzum - Hvis Lyset Tar Oss
Guess I'll have to wait then
Quote: Posted 02/01/06 22:47:24 (GMT) -- Tathar
I tested this build (Kail's not TM's) in The Arena of Champions mod lastnight. I have also tested the Dragon Kin listed in the Epic Character Build (ECB) found here as well.
Kail’s build did quite well vs the Death Wurm but when I got to the Balrog Lord he got hit more often than the one found on the Epic Character Build page although his AC was higher than the ECB ones. (Has anyone else here tried The Arena of Champions mod?)
I'm going to continue with these character build test until I find one that can defeat the Balrog Lord. So far I have yet to find one build to do this. Most of the builds I have tried, die at the Death Wurms challenge. Only a Dragon Kin has been able to defeat him and unlock the Balrog Lord for the next challenge. That includes the ECB characters.
Just thought that you would be interested to hear about this build testing. So far the Balrog Lord is the champion as I have not defeated him yet.
Hehe...I often use the Arena of Champions to test my builds, however I often make evil chars...One of my evil Cleric builds could defeat the Gold Dragon & Divine Archer without even breaking a sweat (or resting) however would fall afoul of the Archwizard...
...as for good & neutral chars, with a Haste item my cleric 15 / monk 6 / weapon master 19 can take down the Death Wyrm & Balrog Lord without any further item upgrades.
However I have found that the Arena of Champions is not really a perfect arena for testing builds as it is effectively a game in itself...and as such you can play to beat the game rather than vigorously testing a build...the best place really to test your builds is the Novice to Epic Character Creator Click Here version here[/url], which affords you a great selection of items and monsters to face...
*edit...really should have read the whole thread before posting message!
Edited By krsboss on 02/03/06 10:49
I fought with the Order of Jormundgandr in the Arena, the Death Wurm I got rid off without any buffing at all, just plain base DS, for the Balrog I buffed up (since it seemed so tough from what has been said) then shapechanged into red dragon and the fiery demon got his butt kicked so hard he won't be able to sit down for a long while. I would have probably beaten him to death without buffs too. I'll test later with Nature's Wyrm
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Tested Nature's Wyrm too in the Arena and it did well vs the Death Wurm and had a tough fight vs the Balrog Lord. The Death Wurm can be beaten even without buffing, the Balrog Lord required buffing and only after a prolonged fight where I spammed IKD I eventually nailed him down.
Nature's Wyrm surely misses the AB/damage buffs of the Order of Jormundgandr and so needed much more time to defeat the Balrog, and prolonged fights mean also your buffs/protections begin to fade, which is something you wanna avoid.
Summing up: the Order of Jormundgandr rules, its capacity to buff up through both cleric and druid spells is awesome, so much as to make it a formidable build even unshifted. Nature's Wyrm is a powerful build anyway, but less than the Order altough definitely more iconic... and a little less cheesey too
The Arena it's a fun module, guess I'll try to unlock the other monsters too.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
The one after the Balrog is tough. I tried it with the Jormungandr build (actually, I modified it slightly - I dropped Expertise and the SP feats for Disarm/Imp Disarm, and Combat Casting, and the Epic SP for ICC). Fully buffed he had about 70-73 AB (depending on how lucky he got with empowered buffs), and about 87 AC. I was only hitting the thing on 20's, and it has fast regeneration and a LOT of DR (I was going 2d6 +23 +2 +3 +4 for a total of 34-44 per hit, but only around 6 was getting though - I guess his DR is around 30-35). It was hitting me fairly often for something like 50-100 per hit (I had 1133 HP, he took me to half pretty quick). It had high enough SR that none of my spells were affecting it (granted I dropped the Spell Pen feats, but I doubt 6 more would have helped....). I never got it past barely injured.
TM
I tried the one after the Balrog Lord too with the Order and it was easy enough. I think you guys do not use all the buffs you've got cause the fight was not that hard to me.BTW the DR is +10/25 , it hits hard when it does but you've got DR spells too from your druid spell list plus regeneration. Spamming KD is very useful. Also it really takes me a couple of real time minutes to buff up, just to give you an approximate list of buffs I use:
Bull's STR Endurance Aura of Vitality Blood Frenzy Owl's Wisdom Owl's Insight Bless Prayer Aid Battletide Barkskin Magic Vestment/Shield of faith (only one is useful if fighting in DS since they do not stack in DS) Stoneskin Greater Stoneskin Aura vs Alignment Regeneration Monstruos regeneration Spell Resistance Energy Buffer Haste
and I still have to use Improved invisibility (50% less hits!!!) Darkness Ultravision
all spells cast empowered/extended as appropriate. Man I need more quickslots
Nature's Wyrm has inferior buffing capacities so it should have a harder time. If I had more free time I'd test all the module with both build, for now I'll be happy of making a couple of fights every now and then.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 02/04/06 19:13
Stoneskin stacks with Greater Stoneskin? I never knew that. How does that work out?
AFAIK they just overlap, meaning that when one gets depleted you still have the other up to soak damage. The one taking the hit first should be Greater Stoneskin since it has a higher protection value. Something like premonition and GS.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
From what I've seen, the one you cast first is used up first.
So I cast Prem, GSS, SS in that order.
-pc
A quick note to those that don't know it. In Dragonform all those three are wasted, the Dragon has better natural resist.
I had the impression that if you get hit by +4 or lesser weapons GS (or premonition or SS) do take the toll. I could be wrong since I'm no expert in DR stacking, if someone knows better, please explain how it works. Thank you.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
) and losing one epic feat (EP?) for the AC increase at 10th lvl. Might be worth it. To be noted that with 24 druid lvls owl's insight alone caps your wisdom with 22 lvl you'll miss the +1 AC you just got from monk, unless you have wis enhancing gear that merges in DS. IE can be useful but you've got various DR/protection from the elements spells available,good ref saves (26 +9 vs spells) and evasion already. Seems like IE is not that necessary.
