The Risen Master (PvM/PvP, somewhat playable levels 1-40, but primarily a straight level 40 build)
The concept: A Risen Lord shifter build that utilizes the Weapon Master's ability to choose an additional weapon of choice at epic levels to get around the inability of druid/shifters to get Weapon Proficiency (exotic), and therefore to become scythe-based Weapon Masters.
Strengths: -Good AB -Decent AC -4 attacks/round -A full set of WM feats in scythe on a Risen Lord build -Devastating Critical -Plenty of HP -Decent Saves -Risen Lord's DR -Can use sickle/tower shield and medium armor for huge amounts of AC, if necessary, and still get WM bonuses, though not Dev Crit
Weaknesses: -Low damage -Very low Dev Crit DC
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Despite its cool features, this is largely a "project" build, due to its serious difficulty actually killing anything (who's going to fail a DC 35 Devastating Critical save? And what self-respecting scyther does a maximum of 124 damage on a critical hit?). Still, the problem of making a WM-based Risen Lord is one that's been bothering me, and I'm proud of actually having solved it.
Edited By griphook on 01/29/06 00:07
*sigh* Once again, beaten to the punch. I swear I looked through all the shifter builds and couldn't find any that took WM levels...but I guess I missed one.
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Bah, humbug. At least mine is slightly different (strength based, instead of dexterity).
Theres never any Druid/Bard/Shifters, weapon master gets redundant..
Theres never any Druid/Bard/Shifters, weapon master gets redundant..
quickly
With Bard you don't get 4 attacks.
Risen shape if i'm not wrong gives you different STR/DEX values so specializing in those 2 abilities won't do anything (I think).
Also, you can get risen shape with 10 levels already if yu take 10th shifter on an epic feat level (e.g. 21,24,27....) _________________ Inactive for a while
Why not take Weapon Proficiency: Exotic earlier, say in place of Alertness? Then focus on scythe right away instead of sickle, saving a feat for something else? Or if you want a 1-handed weapon for use while in human form, why not Scim instead of Sickle so you at least get a good crit range?
TM
Alertness is a shifter prerequisite and the guy evidently wants to get 4 attacks per round, so there's no way to get WF: scythe straight away.
I agree about changing sickle for scimitar.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 01/27/06 17:02
You're right about scimitar being better than sickle. I just figured you'd hardly ever use it, anyway, and sickle is sort of the most "druidy" weapon.
As for taking Weapon Proficiency (exotic) earlier, you can't. Due to an obnoxious feature of the class, Druids are unable to take any additional weapon proficiencies. Since the Shifter prestige class is basically just an extension of the Druid in NwN, they decided to keep that disadvantage for Druid/Shifters. Only after taking a level of WM can this build take Weapon Proficiency (exotic).
@GhostNWN, Risen Lord shape replaces your str and your con, not your dex, so going the dex route is probably most effective. Or, if you wanted, you could take up to 21 con and get Epic Damage Reduction, then pour the rest into dex. It's really up to you: Do you want high AC, Epic DR, or Dev Crit?
*edit* Taking Undead Shape at Shifter 10: Are you sure? The manual (yeah, I know) says it requires "Epic Shifter," which ought to mean level 11. It's been wrong before, though...all the time.
Edited By Nimueh_Leafbow on 01/27/06 22:29
Okay, I tested taking Undead Shape at Shifter 10, and it works. I also decided that a DC 35 dev crit isn't worth having, but as I posted above, the dex version has already been done, so here's a DR version which takes into account the advice I've recieved:
Damage (Risen Lord Scythe): 2d4+12 (critical 17-20/x5)
AC (shifted): 34
Saves (shifted): Fortitude: 26 (+9 vs. spells) Reflex: 27 (+9 vs. spells) Will: 20 (+9 vs. spells)
Max HP (shifted): 584
DR: Epic DR: 9/- Risen Lord DR: 15/+3
Why not choose Spear? At least that way ... you can still use the drider shape more effectively _________________ Demons are Forever!
Because it's focusing on Risen Lord shape? It's not called Risen Master by chance, after all...
Theres never any Druid/Bard/Shifters, weapon master gets redundant..
quickly
I think Druid/Bard/Shifter could be very good... shifter 17 bard 15 druid 8 gets you almost full bard song, full epic shapes, 25 BAB, plus Hide, Move Silently as class skills and Cat's Grace in synergy with the Kobold Commando (call him Deekin II). Your fourth attack comes from extended haste.
You're right about scimitar being better than sickle. I just figured you'd hardly ever use it, anyway, and sickle is sort of the most "druidy" weapon.
I hate to break up the party... BUT.... Being a celt i would know... The most druidic weapon on the game is either a wooden staff or wooden quarterstaff (aka bowstaff) or a club as druid is a belief of nature etc etc blah blah blah
Therefore all there weapons are naturally made and not man made fashioned ^^
Very interesting build, and I like it, since I just love scythes.
Druid 8..... how much buffs do you get from that, level 4? at least use barkskin and bull's strength since they last an hour per level, 8 hours is a very decent duration.
Yeah, druids always use wooden quarterstaffs, sometimes clubs, but mostly staffs, not sickles, as traditionally druids live in the forest and make their weapons out of what the nature gives them: wood; they can't forge metal.
You're right about scimitar being better than sickle. I just figured you'd hardly ever use it, anyway, and sickle is sort of the most "druidy" weapon.
I hate to break up the party... BUT.... Being a celt i would know... The most druidic weapon on the game is either a wooden staff or wooden quarterstaff (aka bowstaff) or a club as druid is a belief of nature etc etc blah blah blah
Therefore all there weapons are naturally made and not man made fashioned ^^
Being a celt, I would know that the traditional celtic weapon is a punch in the face. However, in DnD every druid permitted weapon is traditional for them, cause that's all they've got. Most are natural weapons, weapons which have to do with harvest or hunt, or in the case of the scimitar because it looks like a moon.
a druids weapon is nature itself... they use bare hands to harvest and let nature produce on its own... i have never even heard/seen a druid using a sickle in boks or modern day times... let alone punching in the face... they work from natural energy to control nature and also tie that in with a bit of magic... druids arent melee
miraculix had a sickle!
There are definately some things that could be done to make the devcrit more viable.
A common tip is to remember what items shift fully.
Something many people forget about is that weapon stats DO shift, therefore if you can find a weapon with a strength bonus on it, that would help you reach +12 above the risen lords natural str score more easily.
Furthermore, ANY devcrit is better than none at all. Trying to build solely with the intent of devcritting is silly and pointless..it should be taken for what it is..an opportunity.
The best thing to do is to try and focus on doing as much basic damage as possible while taking as little yourself as possible, and look at devcrit as just another tool in your arsenal, rather than your only trick.
Overall I give this build a 9. I'm going to build it and rebuild it myself several different ways in test programs and see what I can come up with.
The FIRST, most GLARING thing I notice is the race. yes I understand taking human makes it easier to reach weaponmaster, but it CAN be done with other races.
On one of the servers I play (and DM and develop) on, the most common race for shifter builds is DWARF, because of the extreme hit points they can reach thanks to the dwarven constitution bonus.
Half-orc would be a very bad choice, simply because, as youve noted, you only need to reach 25 str to qualify for devcrit, since your actual str score is totally altered while shifted.
A possible option for this build would be to shift the levels around a bit and try to get either dragon shape or construct shape as well...OR to focus on kobold command AND risen lord, giving you two excellent shapes to work with.
A risen lord/iron golem build would be exceptional, although a drow warrior/iron golem build might actually work better for devcrit since greatsword has a base crit range of 19-20, where a scythe crits on a 20 only.
That would mean your crit range with 7 weaponmaster levels would be MUCH higher and with 4 attacks per round+1 for haste, etc, you would have that much more chance of scoring a dev crit.
Additionally, even though golem shape suffers from the same critical range problem as risen lord, and even though gloves with the 'keen' property on them are generally almost non-existant, you COULD achieve as many as 6 to 7 attacks per round with a low end crit range, which would balance out.
Well, it's been a few months since I posted this (it's a good idea to look at the date when you post!), but I'll take a stab at these:
Something many people forget about is that weapon stats DO shift, therefore if you can find a weapon with a strength bonus on it, that would help you reach +12 above the risen lords natural str score more easily.
Furthermore, ANY devcrit is better than none at all. Trying to build solely with the intent of devcritting is silly and pointless..it should be taken for what it is..an opportunity.
The best thing to do is to try and focus on doing as much basic damage as possible while taking as little yourself as possible, and look at devcrit as just another tool in your arsenal, rather than your only trick.
Yes, you can get +12 str bonus from items. Actually, Risen Lord merges everything that a shifter shape can possibly merge, so your str bonus doesn't have to be on your weapon, it can be on anything but (if I remember correctly) your gauntlets or an off-hand weapon. But even though you can get +12 str, so can everyone else, and they're still going to be starting at a higher base DC. So, the point is, your DC is ALWAYS going to be 2 points lower than the regular minimum for the feat, and I'd say at least 5 points lower than it needs to be in order to be worth the feat investment. Also, Dev Crit on a scythe is dreadfully inefficient anyway, because of the low threat range and high multiplier (you won't get many crits, and the ones you get will generally kill them anyway).
The FIRST, most GLARING thing I notice is the race. yes I understand taking human makes it easier to reach weaponmaster, but it CAN be done with other races.
On one of the servers I play (and DM and develop) on, the most common race for shifter builds is DWARF, because of the extreme hit points they can reach thanks to the dwarven constitution bonus.
Half-orc would be a very bad choice, simply because, as youve noted, you only need to reach 25 str to qualify for devcrit, since your actual str score is totally altered while shifted.
Um...let's try this out: 16 BAB. Going any race other than human means I lose 1 pre-epic feat. I have to take Alertness early to qualify for Shifter, so I'm already taking WM as early as possible as a human. So, if I lose my human bonus feat, I can't take WM until level 19. That means that I have to take 18 levels in some combination of Druid and Shifter, both of which have 3/4 AB progression. There ain't no way to take 18 levels in 3/4 classes without losing at least 5 BAB, so I would end up with pre-epic BAB 15. Do you know what happens at pre-epic BAB 15? I'll tell you what: You lose 1 APR.
Incidentally, those 18 levels would also have to be Druid 8 / Shifter 10 in order to keep the current level split, and since that would keep you from taking Shifter 10 in epic, it would be impossible for the build to take Undead Shape, which it seems to me would kind of defeat the purpose.
Now let's see what you gain by going Dwarf, as you suggested: A small save bonus vs. spells and a +2 con bonus that gives you precisely 0 HP when shifted because Risen Lord form overrides your base con.
A possible option for this build would be to shift the levels around a bit and try to get either dragon shape or construct shape as well...OR to focus on kobold command AND risen lord, giving you two excellent shapes to work with.
Construct Shape requires 27 wis, and Dragon Shape takes 30. In order to get that, I'd have to change the focus of the build and take a whole bunch of Great Wisdoms as epic feats. You're not talking about "shifting the levels around a bit," you're talking about a completely different build.
As for the kobold, you have to take 17 levels in shifter to get the improved version (and the basic one isn't good for much). Where are those 7 levels coming from? Again, possibly feasible, but a completely different build.
A risen lord/iron golem build would be exceptional, although a drow warrior/iron golem build might actually work better for devcrit since greatsword has a base crit range of 19-20, where a scythe crits on a 20 only.
That would mean your crit range with 7 weaponmaster levels would be MUCH higher and with 4 attacks per round+1 for haste, etc, you would have that much more chance of scoring a dev crit.
In my opinion, a Risen Lord/Iron Golem would be pretty bad, because they'd be redundant: Who needs two different crit-immune shapes? As for drow warrior...once again, you're talking about a completely unrelated build to this one.
Also, Dev Crit (unarmed) doesn't work with the unarmed shifter forms, because they are actually using a creature weapon, not their fists.
Additionally, even though golem shape suffers from the same critical range problem as risen lord, and even though gloves with the 'keen' property on them are generally almost non-existant, you COULD achieve as many as 6 to 7 attacks per round with a low end crit range, which would balance out.
I don't have any levels in Monk. Where do you think I'm getting 2-3 extra APR?
Edited By Nimueh_Leafbow on 07/03/06 03:56
Dev Crit is stupid for Scythe builds. The whole point of the Scythe WM is to be able to do massive damage on a critical. Devestating Critical ontop of a x5 multiplier is redundant and makes me gooey with rage.
Dex is good and all, but not worth it. Nope. It isn't.
Constitution though... if you get the 9/- DR, then couple that with your Druids Stoneskin if you get that far, plus the 50% damage immunity from the Risen Lord... ouch! Ouch, I say.