The Concept: You barely even have to hear his voice before you start seeing the world just like he does: As a cold, chaotic, desolate place, where love, hope, and goodness are nothing but empty illusions. After mere moments in his company, you want nothing so much as to lie down and die. He's happy to help you do so; in fact, it's the only thing which will ever make him happy again.
He's a charisma-based Barbarian, the only one I've ever seen. Good luck trying to resist his Terrifying Rage (DC between 65 and 84, depending on the roll). Once you've been paralyzed, he'll dish out 15d6 sneak attack damage and 2 strength damage per hit, plus whatever he can muster from strength buffs, Divine Power, and Smite Good. Most people won't last the duration of the fear under such conditions.
(If you're worried about the will save, you can take Epic Will and/or Slippery Mind in place of Epic Prowess, Epic Skill Focus (taunt), or one of the Improved Sneak Attacks)
AB (battleaxe): +35/+30/+25/+20 +6 (effective) from Taunt +1 (at least) from Bull’s Strength +3 from Greater Rage +8 (against good) from Smite Good +45/+40/+35/+30 (+53/+48/+43/+38 on smite)
Damage (battleaxe): 1d8+2 (critical 19-20/x3) +1 (at least) from Bull’s Strength +3 from Greater Rage +8 from Divine Might +4 (against good) from Smite Good 1d8+14 (critical 19-20/x3, 1d8+18 on smite)
AC (full plate, tower shield): 30 +8 from Divine Shield -2 (in rage) from Greater Rage 38 (36 in rage)
Max HP: 438 +120 (in rage) from Greater Rage 558 (in rage)
Fortitude: 33 (36 in rage) Reflex: 28 (+4 vs. traps, Improved Evasion) Will: 23 (25 in rage)
Modified Intimidate Skill: 64
Modified Taunt Skill: 61
Sneak Attack Damage: 15d6 (+2 str damage)
Damage Reduction: 3/-
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Strengths: -Very hard to resist Terrifying Rage -Significant Sneak Attack damage (terrified opponents are flat-footed) -Good saves, Improved Evasion -Effective Taunt -DR (although not much of it) -Good AB when using abilities -Decent AC
Weaknesses: -Must rely on skills, feats, and abilities for AB -Mediocre HP for a warrior -Must take off armor and shield to sneak effectively -Mediocre damage against crit/sneak immune opponents
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I'm pretty happy with this build. It's unique without being too contrived, relatively cheeseless, interesting from an RP standpoint, and (I think) moderately effective. You'd better not play it anyplace where rest is restricted, though, because once you start running out of Greater Rage, Divine Power/Divine Shield, and Smite Good, you're in serious trouble.
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 06/10/10 02:52
This is actually a pretty interesting build. Both technically and RP-wise. It has a certain appeal-- great saves, Terrifying Rage, UMD, high sneak dice, a little DR, Divine Damage, self Buff with Bulls and Greater Rage-- this is a pretty nice idea. Well done, indeed. Might have to try something like this.
A few suggestions I might make: Dropping Extra Smiting for Blindfighting. Extra Smiting is of very limited utility with only 4BG levels, and it is further limited to evil creatures. Blindfighting give him some added defense, because let's face it, he already has some nice offense going.
I would also consider dropping Charisma to 22, and get Strength up a little more. He might be able to Rage and Bulls, but he can't buff his AB like a Pally can. You might be better off going a little higher in that Strength department.
Regarding your Intimidate score. I've done some playing around with TR back in the day. What I've learned is that a 64 Intimidate without items is more than enough. You get to roll a d10 on top of that, and then there are Charisma bonuses and items with Skill enhancements, etc. I would drop Skill Focus: Intimidate for either Knockdown, Called Shot, or Toughness.
Anyway, good job, Pointy-ear, there's hope for you yet. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Edited By grizzled_dwarflord on 01/31/06 02:53
Thanks .
Blind Fight: I'm a little unclear on how this helps with defense. As far as I can tell, the manual (hah) says the feat lets you reroll attacks that you miss due to an opponent's concealment bonus. I've never been certain that I understood it correctly, though, and even if I did, the manual is generally wrong, so could I have a clarification on what exactly the feat does?
As to the usefulness of Extra Smiting, you're right that the damage it adds is trivial; I took it because the build's AB isn't particularly great without it, but it's probably good enough.
Charisma vs. Strength: It's really just personal taste. Would you rather have a higher base AB and damage, or higher saves and better buffs? Either one is certainly viable.
Power Attack and Cleave: Cleave is a prereq for BG, so they're not optional.
Pointy Ear: I'll be right back with a Dwarven Pale Master/Assassin, shorty . I have been posting too many elves.
See my edits. I changed much of what I wrote after I wrote it. I remembered the PA and Cl thing after the post. Which is somewhat ironic considering my closet propensity for Bgs. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Blind fight is really helpful when fighting concealed opponents, f.e. dexers with SCV or casterss/UMD users with II. Usually you roll only once to see whether your hit hits or misses due to concealment (you've got a 50% chance of "confirming" the hit and a 50% chance of missing) with blind fight you get to reroll a missing roll, thus reducing your 50% chance to miss to a much more acceptable 25% chance.
Updated leveling guide, based on the suggestions I've recieved. Since the strength bonus will be more important early on, and charisma doesn't become a major factor until somewhat later in the build (saves at 10, Divine Might at 12, Divine Shield at 15, Terrifying Rage at 24), I've put the two extra strength that grizzled_dwarflord recommended in right at creation. I also shuffled the early feats for a little more playability, and made slight edits to leveling orders to get tumble at the right levels. Here's the new version:
Starting/Ending Stats and leveling guide...pasted above. griphook
Edited By griphook on 02/01/06 21:05
The defensive help that Grizz was alluding to by suggesting that you pick up Blind Fight is that with the Blind Fight feat, invisible opponents do not get a bonus to hit you. My understanding is that invisible opponents get to disregard yer dex modifier, as well as dodge, since you don't realize you're being attacked. That seems to make sense to me. I haven't tested this extensively, but I have heard that if you have Uncanny Dodge, then that negates the invisible opponent's bonus to hit you as well. I still pick up Blind Fight on my Barbs, lol, it just makes me feel better.
Btw, I also like this build idea. Good job I was thinking of putting together some kind of Barb/Rogue build myself to make a build that would give me the best chance of incorporating as many sneak attacks as I could in, but I may hold off on it for now, seems like a lot of Barb builds being posted lately. _________________ If everyone is thinking alike, then someone is failing to think.
Edited By DarkStar27909 on 01/31/06 06:53
Okay, thanks for the info on Blind Fight.
Something else occurred to me about the build: At the cost of a little early playability, you can take Rogue at level 1 and Barbarian at level 7 for 15 extra skill points (16 more at creation, but you have to take Hide 5 cross-class at level 7, for a loss of 1). To do this, Take Power Attack and Cleave at level 1 and Weapon Focus at level 3.
If you opt for this variation, you'll have 2 less AB at levels 1 and 2, 1 less AB from level 3 to level 6, 6 less HP at levels 1-6, and 2 less AC at levels 7 and 8. At level 9 and on, the build is identical, but with more skill points (18 left over instead of 3). Maybe you could put them into Open Lock or Disable Trap and actually get some use out of them (as opposed to Listen 3, which is what I took with the original build).
Edited By Nimueh_Leafbow on 01/31/06 16:36
Still dont see knockdown in there. KD is another way to get your sneak damage in play. I never take a rogue without it.
One other suggestion - although you don't need the extra smiting, you might want to take extra turning. That's because your Divine Might and Divine Shield use your Turn Undead ability, and you currently only have 2 (i.e. you can only power up with both 1 time per day). You also might want to consider taking a few more BG levels to get more turns per day - you will lose some skillpoints by sacrificing Rogue levels and a few bonus rogue feats (I would drop Improved Sneaks), but the extra turns, AB, and summon fiend (to generate flanking attacks) will probably make up for it.
I would also drop Cha even more and pump Str - even with a Cha of only 14, you would have a TR DC of 43+13+2=58 unbuffed, 64 with Cha buffs. Most things have Will saves down in the 30's or less (except Cleric or Druid builds, but they are likely to self-buff to be immune to fear anyway). You won't lose much on the TR, and you will gain a good bit of AB and damage against things immune to fear and sneaks.
One other suggestion - although you don't need the extra smiting, you might want to take extra turning. That's because your Divine Might and Divine Shield use your Turn Undead ability, and you currently only have 2 (i.e. you can only power up with both 1 time per day). You also might want to consider taking a few more BG levels to get more turns per day - you will lose some skillpoints by sacrificing Rogue levels and a few bonus rogue feats (I would drop Improved Sneaks), but the extra turns, AB, and summon fiend (to generate flanking attacks) will probably make up for it. TM
Two tings real quick: Turn Undeads are determined by 3 +Charisma modifier. His BG levels won't really affect his Turn supply.
The second thing: BGs can't pick Extra Turning from the feat list. Only if you have Cleric or Pally. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
One other suggestion - although you don't need the extra smiting, you might want to take extra turning. That's because your Divine Might and Divine Shield use your Turn Undead ability, and you currently only have 2 (i.e. you can only power up with both 1 time per day).
Grizz already covered this one pretty well. The build, as it stands (see my revisions above) has 10 Turn Undead attempts per day.
You also might want to consider taking a few more BG levels to get more turns per day - you will lose some skillpoints by sacrificing Rogue levels and a few bonus rogue feats (I would drop Improved Sneaks), but the extra turns, AB, and summon fiend (to generate flanking attacks) will probably make up for it.
As Grizz said, it won'd get me extra Turn attempts, and unless I take the levels pre-epic and replace the pre-epic Rogue levels (at the cost of skill points and causing the build to mature into its concept somewhat later), it won't get me AB either. Even if you do go Barb 12/BG 8 pre-epic, it's still only 1 more BAB than the character currently has. As to Summon Fiend, unless I take quite a few BG levels (which I don't want to do, because I value my Rage uses, skill points, and Sneak Attack damage too much), the creature it produces will be basically worthless, except in that it will take a single round of attacks, and allow me to perform sneak attacks during that round. If that's all I'm using it for, the Summon Undead feat is just as good. Neither one is going to last very long.
I would also drop Cha even more and pump Str - even with a Cha of only 14, you would have a TR DC of 43+13+2=58 unbuffed, 64 with Cha buffs. Most things have Will saves down in the 30's or less (except Cleric or Druid builds, but they are likely to self-buff to be immune to fear anyway). You won't lose much on the TR, and you will gain a good bit of AB and damage against things immune to fear and sneaks.
TR isn't the only thing I'm using cha for. As a level 4 BG, I also get my cha bonus to my saves. Combine that with the fact that the cha modifier determines Turn Undead attempts, and I'm not willing to drop it any more than I already have.
@treefq, Knockdown would be useful, especially against fear-immune opponents (although most of these will be undead, so it won't help that much). Still, KD will help get Sneak Attacks before you get TR at level 24, and it will be a viable option after that against non-undead fear-immune things, like Paladins. It's a very viable option to take it instead of Toughness at level 6.
just nice! how many rages do you have per day?
5/day, Greater rage
just my opinion, i've tested the build in the novice to epic character builder and thought this version does better:
Str: 16 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Wis: 8 Int: 14 Cha: 14
raise cha to 16 (or 18) and put the rest in strenght. grab improved knockdown.
since you can't crit or sneak undead, why don't you take a warhammer instead of the axe?
i don't really see the use of dumping over 80 skillpoints in stealth skills if you have to take off armor and shield and without HIPS. i used them to maximize listen and heal. i always wonder how characters without ranks in healing (or healing spells) are going to survive.
Edited By dust7 on 02/01/06 16:20
Dropping cha to 16 from 24 will: -Reduce your saves by 4, dropping your Will save to a paltry 18 -Reduce AC when buffed with Divine Shield by 4 -Reduce damage when buffed with Divine Might by 4 (balanced by the damage you gain from str bonus, so your damage does not change when buffed) -Reduce Turn Undead attempts (and therefore Divine Shield/Might uses) from 10 to 6 -Drop Intimidate and Taunt to 56 modified (this is okay for Intimidate, but Taunt will often fail, or at least not work as well, against characters with high concentration at 56) -Reduce AB by 4 when smiting (balanced by the AB you gain from str bonus, so your AB does not change when smiting)
You will gain: +4 AB (except when smiting, when it will remain the same) +4 damage (except when using Divine Might, when it will remain the same)
Not worth it, in my opinion, but it's a matter of personal choice. It doesn't destroy the integrity of the build, certainly.
Heal is certainly an option if healing kits are more readily available where you play than potions are, and if you're taking that, there's no reason to max only one stealth skill, so listen is as good as anything for the other 43.
Edited By Nimueh_Leafbow on 02/01/06 20:40
Final version of the leveling guide and stats, based on various pieces of advice and things I realized myself. I took Rogue at level 1, as I described earlier. I also put five more ranks into Spellcraft, because I have more skill points than I had before, after taking dust7's advice on the stealth skills. I still kept the charisma stat high, because I see it as central to the build concept, but it can be changed at will. Here he is:
AB (battleaxe): +36/+31/+26/+21 +6 (effective) from Taunt +1 (at least) from Bull’s Strength +3 from Greater Rage +7 (against good) from Smite Good +46/+41/+36/+31 (+53/+48/+43/+38 on smite)
Damage (battleaxe): 1d8+3 (critical 19-20/x3) +1 (at least) from Bull’s Strength +3 from Greater Rage +7 from Divine Might +4 (against good) from Smite Good 1d8+14 (critical 19-20/x3, 1d8+18 on smite)
AC (full plate, tower shield): 30 +7 from Divine Shield -2 (in rage) from Greater Rage 37 (35 in rage)
Max HP: 438 +120 (in rage) from Greater Rage 558 (in rage)
Fortitude: 32 (35 in rage, +4 vs. spells) Reflex: 27 (31 vs. traps, +4 vs. spells, Improved Evasion) Will: 22 (24 in rage, +4 vs. spells)
Sneak Attack Damage: 15d6 (+2 str damage)
Damage Reduction: 3/-
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Strengths: -Hard to resist Terrifying Rage -Significant Sneak Attack damage -Good saves, Improved Evasion -Effective Taunt -DR (although not much of it) -Good AB when using abilities -Decent AC
Weaknesses: -Must rely on skills, feats, and abilities for AB -Mediocre HP for a warrior -Mediocre damage against crit/sneak immune opponents
.
. I have been posting too many elves.
See my edits. I changed much of what I wrote after I wrote it. I remembered the PA and Cl thing after the post. Which is somewhat ironic considering my closet propensity for Bgs.
I was thinking of putting together some kind of Barb/Rogue build myself to make a build that would give me the best chance of incorporating as many sneak attacks as I could in, but I may hold off on it for now, seems like a lot of Barb builds being posted lately.