Dwarven WeaponMaster (as pure as you can get for a Prestige Class)
Main aim was to create a melee tank that had some Damage Reduction, reasonable AC (ie. using a shield!), taking the maximum levels of WM. As may be noted, Overwhelming and Devastating Critical have not been taken, these could be fitted in, but you would need to lose 3 pre-epic and 2 epic feats to accomodate, which is a little excessive. The effect would make this dependent on striking a crit on the first attack and I'm no great fan of one-trick-ponyness.
His saves are nothing special and that does bug me to be honest, but bearing in mind the aim of making as pure a WM as possible, that is what you get I'm afraid.
Dwarf (no really!) Fighter 10, Weapon Master 30 PvM and PvP 1-40
First of all, with no spellcasting, only 129 skill points, and sub par saves, this is a one trick pony, your trick just happens to be having a massive AB with slightly enhanced crit stats, so long as you use a warhammer, anyway.
Secondly, I refuse to play weapon masters, so perhaps there is something I'm missing, but my understanding is that WM's gain nothing but hitpoints from levels 29 and 30, so couldn't you take one level of fighter for Epic Weapon Specialization and 1 level of monk, rogue, or bard for a tumble skill dump? This would violate your principle of taking maximum weapon master levels, but it's just a thought at first glance. _________________ Names change, characters change, classes change, stats change, but stupid...stupid is forever.
Edited By koolthursday on 01/31/06 21:34
He could, but then it wouldn't be a "near-pure" build. There was a suggestion on the General forum to make "pure" builds which would be 40 of a base class, or 10/30 for PrC classes.
I would actually drop the DR feats. I don't think 9/- DR is enough to make the difference in Epic characters - it's worth it on top of Barb or DwD DR, but not enough by itself. That would let you bump Str to 32, leaving Con at 18 (and 600 HP, still plenty). Gain 2 AB, 2 damage, and 3 Epic Feats. I would also consider using a 2-handed weapon and taking Disarm/Imp Disarm.
TM
I agree with your sentiments about WMs, they are of limited use I find, particularly bearing in mind the pre-reqs to qualify.
This was solely to try and create a near pure build, as Mr. Monk pointed out. Saves and AC are major failings, the low ac was attempted to be balanced out by the DR, which would be lower still if I went 2-handed, with a GreatAxe or similar.
My first take on this was a Human Rogue WM - but you just can't do it, you need the feats from Fighter to qualify by 11th level.
Having tried with this one, I can safely say it is not recommended. unless you are in a good party, with a strong cleric, bard and arcane caster behind you.
As much as pure/ near-pure builds go, they do have their limitations. Some more than others (eg. PM, RDD, WM!)
Actually, looking at your char, I really don't think it was that bad. I think you just tried to take too much at once.
When playing WM's, which are my favorite class, you have to think specialist.
Now, I'm no expert character builder, at all. But I thought I would try your build, but a different way.
So I built one, a human, in the beginner to epic char leveler, which looks like this:
Human Fighter 10, Weapon Master 30 PvM and PvP 1-40
I went the Dev Crit route because of his high AB. His hit points are good, as are his skill points.
His saves, are of course, not good, along with his AC.
But, I figured, with his high AB, he probably wouldn't be standing there, toe to toe, for too long.
I then wanted to see how he would do against monsters. So...
...with only his mundane armor and scimitar, I took him into the leveler arena. I easily defeated all 40th level characters I summoned except the rogue, 7 out of 7 times each, but the rogue I only defeated 6 of 7 times. I then summoned every 30th to 40th level monster, 3 times each. I won everytime except for the ones that needed magic to hit.
My Dev Crit, with the scimitar range, really did it's damage. Most of the kills were 3 hits or less, with approx 6 of every 10 battles ending in 1 hit.
But in PvP, it is hard to say. He would Dev Crit alot, but with his low saves and AC, he would be in trouble against spell casters and rogues without backup.
But in PvM, I don't see any real trouble at all. Even against crit immune creatures, because of his high AB, he would be hitting pretty much all the time.
I would say, that as a specialist fighter, this one can't be beat.
This is of course, just my opinion, but I have played WM's alot more than any other characters, and I believe that they are the best "specialist" fighter types, bar none.
Rooker _________________ "We fight not for glory, no riches, no honours, but for freedom alone, which no man gives up except with his life."
Edited By Rooker1963 on 02/01/06 03:09
Rooker: any reason to take those last 2 WM levels? I'd certainly recommend 2 Rogue levels to replace them (not necessarily the last two levels). You'd net yourself the ability to use magic scrolls/items normally barred to you, +8 AC (or +4, if you were cross-classing Tumble in your build), Evasion, and 1d6 sneak attack.
BTW, try building without Dev Crit (it's disabled on most PWs I've looked at) and see if it's as effective. _________________ Captain's Log, Stardate 6051: had trouble sleeping last night... my hiatal hernia is acting up. The ship is... drafty and damp; I complain but... nobody listens.
Quote: Posted 02/01/06 03:10:48 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Rooker: any reason to take those last 2 WM levels? I'd certainly recommend 2 Rogue levels to replace them (not necessarily the last two levels). You'd net yourself the ability to use magic scrolls/items normally barred to you, +8 AC (or +4, if you were cross-classing Tumble in your build), Evasion, and 1d6 sneak attack.
BTW, try building without Dev Crit (it's disabled on most PWs I've looked at) and see if it's as effective.
Actually, I was just trying to go a different route than I...Samphus did, as this post is a pure build post.
I personally have never tried this in a PW. And, I don't play in PW's that don't allow Dev Crit. But, if I have to remove the Dev Crit, I would prob exchange it and blind fight for disarm and imp disarm. I would keep the overwhelming crit for the extra dam.
And as for rogue, that is the path I almost always take. Although I have tried other classes also. COT is a nice addition, and definetely helps with the saves. Barbarian is nice also, with the DR and extra speed.
So, I hope that answers your questions Cinn. As a straight build, a WM lacks in too many areas to make it anything other than a quick killer.
Rooker _________________ "We fight not for glory, no riches, no honours, but for freedom alone, which no man gives up except with his life."
To help your saves, I personnally would drop the initiative feats and replace them with Iron Will and Epic Will. This would give you base saves of 26/21/21. I would then replace Spot with points in Spellcraft. 38 skillpoints would mean 19 ranks of spellcraft, and with your 13 int you would have a modified score of 20, for +4 to all your saves versus spells, meaning that, with the Dwarf's racial bonus, you would end up with saves of 32/27/27 versus spells, which isn't half-bad anymore. My two cents !
EDIT To Rooker, I'd try moving around some of your feats. Epic Prowess and Armor Skin are both feats you can take as WM's epic bonus feats. I would recommend that you take these on epic bonus feat levels and instead replace the two Epic Toughness feats for Great Constitution feats on regular feat levels. You would up with the same AB, AC and HP, but have +1 to your Fortitude saving throws. Although I have to say I didn't actually check if this would mess up everything else before telling you that
Edited By Saosin777 on 02/01/06 04:42
Quote: Posted 02/01/06 04:36:00 (GMT) -- Saosin777 To Rooker, I'd try moving around some of your feats. Epic Prowess and Armor Skin are both feats you can take as WM's epic bonus feats. I would recommend that you take these on epic bonus feat levels and instead replace the two Epic Toughness feats for Great Constitution feats on regular feat levels. You would up with the same AB, AC and HP, but have +1 to your Fortitude saving throws. Although I have to say I didn't actually check if this would mess up everything else before telling you that
Actually, Armor Skin and both Epic Toughness Feats were WM feats, and I was given no choice but to take those. Epic Prowess I always take anyway. I tried to edit that in but was too late, so here it is now. Also, the only feat that was not "mandatory" to take, and could be exchanged for something else was Toughness.
You could, if you wanted to, exchange some of the Great Strength feats for Great Constitution feats, and I thought about that. But, I wanted as high as possible AB for the character, as his only reason for existance is killing quickly. And that he does.
No matter what you do with him, he isn't going to be able to stand toe to toe with anyone for long. If he has too, then, with his low saves and AC, he won't last long.
Rooker _________________ "We fight not for glory, no riches, no honours, but for freedom alone, which no man gives up except with his life."
Edited By Rooker1963 on 02/01/06 10:12
Thanks for the feedback all of you.
I have played around some more on the makeup of this build and have decided to drop the DR feats in Epic levels. It results in a 51 AB, 660 HP, Same AC, Saves are now up to 28/21/25 which are an improvement, particularly the saves, with an extra +6 against spells (Spellcraft and Dwarven racial bonus).
One thing I did find is that it is simpler to go the Human route, if you want Dev Crit. Going Dwarf makes it difficult, if only because you need to sacrifice 3 of the following: Toughness, IKD, Blind Fight, Iron Will - none of which particularly appeal with playability in mind.
So here is a revised version.... and unfortunately I have had to take Epic Toughness three times (sighs) - WM epic feats are truly terrible.
This should perform a lot better in combat particularly against spellcasters.
Have to say I'm a lot happier about this fella now, particularly if needed to solo, of course you may want to swap out Toughness for Improved Expertise.. just a thought
Overall effects of the changes:
STR up to 30, 2 point increase (thus 1 point extra damage) HP 20 less No DR 9/- Saves Fort +2 (28) Will +6 (21) Reflex +4 (25) Extra +4 to saves from Spellcraft Higher AB - 1 point
Generally an improvement.
Thanks again.
Edited By I...Samphus on 02/01/06 13:53
If you think Toughness is expendable, and feel that Epic toughness isnæt good feats, swap Toughness for WF: Battleaxe, and Epic Toughness I, II for WoC: Battleaxe and EWF: Battleaxe. Gives you another type of damage at same AB, but it does lower damage. And you lose 80 hp's.
Grim's suggestion is a nice one altough cheesey Also , would the build be less pure with one (or more for save optimization) FTR lvl in epic for EWS? Keeping the 10/30 lvl split, I find it makes even more sense concept wise. Man, it's supposed to be a weapon master and without EWS he's not able to squeeze the maximum possible damage out of his chosen weapon...not really master like
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vincerò Vincerò Vincerò
A good idea Grim, and very worthwhile, particularly with some DR types about. Completely optional mind you!
As far as the pure builds go, I take it as 30 levels for Prestige Classes as that is their max, as 40 is for a base class.
Maybe I'm wrong though .....
Edited By I...Samphus on 02/01/06 16:07
I didn't mean to chancge the lvl split (10 FTR/30 WM) but just to move one (better two, saves wise) lvls of fighter in epic for EWS. As I said before, it the result would be a better WM, even concept wise (and pure builds are about concept/being iconic, it would seem)
Um, you cannot take more then 10 levels of a PrC pre epic...
I'm officialy dumb, thank you for reminding me
Then I'd definitely go for the 12/28 split for the same reasons above...but that's just me
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 02/01/06 16:25
Ideally I would as well, but no can do if you satisfy 30 levels of PrC.
BtW Kail, I am surprised at you!!
I was surprised at myself too, I knew there was something really faulty in what I was saying... bah, I should get some sleep every now and then! _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vincerò Vincerò Vincerò
Actually, looking at your char, I really don't think it was that bad. I think you just tried to take too much at once.
!
