I tried to made it a Shadow Dragon, I really did, but there's no way, dragon shft's are green, red and blue, and barkskin changes its texture to.... um, bark, but nothing black. If that wasn't enough, i found Champion of Torm, a lawful class to be better than evil classes like Bard, Assasin, Barbarian or Blackguard, so this Shadow Dragon is pretty lawful, I'll have to change the alignment to evil after level 40....
It's made to fight shapeshifted, it sucks if it's not shapeshifted, Dire Bear shapeshift works for a while, and it's my only backup for short spaces where the dragon doesn't fits, but the rest is good.
Playable levels 6-40 PvM, untested PvP
It's really weak in the first levels, when it gets level 5 druid (6 total) gets dire bear shapeshift, and is decent enough, fairly strong at level 6 actually.
Race: Halving
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Status STR 6 DEX 10 CON 8 WIS 18 (30) INT 14 CHA 15 (20)
Leveling
1 Monk - Toughness 2 Druid 3 Druid - Weapon Focus: kama (or anything else, doesn't matter) 4 Druid - +1 WIS (19) 5 Druid 6 Druid - Extend Spell 7 Druid 8 Druid - +1 WIS (20) 9 Druid - Empower Spell 10 Druid 11 Druid 12 Champion of Torm - +1 WIS (21), Maximize Spell 13 Champion of Torm - Improved Critical: Unarmed 14 Champion of Torm 15 Champion of Torm - Extra Smiting, Weapon Proficiency: unarmed 16 Champion of Torm - +1 WIS (22) 17 Champion of Torm - Knockdown 18 Champion of Torm - Improved Knockdown 19 Champion of Torm - Blind-Fight 20 Champion of Torm - +1 WIS (23) 21 Druid - Great Wisdom I (24) 22 Druid 23 Druid 24 Champion of Torm - +1 WIS, Great Wisdom II, Great Wisdom III (27) 25 Champion of Torm 26 Champion of Torm 27 Champion of Torm - Great Wisdom IV (28) 28 Champion of Torm - +1 WIS, Great Wisdom V (30) 29 Champion of Torm 30 Champion of Torm - Great Charisma I (16) 31 Champion of Torm 32 Champion of Torm - +1 CHA (17), Armor Skin 33 Champion of Torm - Epic Charisma II (18) 34 Champion of Torm 35 Champion of Torm 36 Champion of Torm - +1 CHA (19), Epic Prowess, Epic Weapon Focus: Unarmed 37 Champion of Torm 38 Champion of Torm 39 Druid - Dragon Shape [spellcraft 42] 40 Monk - +1 CHA (20) [Tumble 43]
*Hide was to fill those 39 points, but if you know better tell me.
Unshifted HP: 368 Shifted HP: 848
Naked AC: 30 Naked AB: +28/+25/+22/+19/+16/+13
Savins Throws unshifted/shifted Fort 37 - 49 Ref 34 - 47 Will 45 - 45
Useful Buffs (those which last a decent time): Greater Stoneskin, Extended Energy Buffer, Extended Death Ward, Extended Spell Resistance, Owl's Insight, Extended Freedom of Movement, Empowered Bull's Strength, Barkskin
I know spell resistance will only add 6 to the real SR value when on dragon shapeshift, but it's a spell space to fill anyway.
Monk: Evasion, Stunning Fist 2 times per day with low DC.
Druid: 3 slots of level 7 spells and weak Animal Companion
Champion of Torm: Divine Wrath +9 AB, damage and saves for 5 rounds, Smite Evil 3 times per day, Lay on Hands.
Advantages: Great saves, Evasion with that high reflex, good AC, good HP, a lot of bluffs and immunities.
Disadvantages: Not so good AB and damage.
Tactic: Just use all the bluffs listed above and dragon shapeshift, in fight use flurry of blows, improved knockdown and smite evil, divine wrath is very powerful but won't last long, only 5 rounds, but if the enemy is hard (or PvP) using it is most useful.
In PvM I normally make also this (but I don't know if it works on PvP): When the HP drops below around 300 (in dragon) run, de-shapeshift, heal inmediately, run a little bit more and shapeshift again, if running works correctly (and it's not surrounded) heals perfectly and it's ready for much more, this build has 3 slots for Heal.
I'm about to go get some rest so I'll be quick.
WF/EWF:unarmed do not work in DS, even though the sheet says so.
Go Druid 15/Monk 3/CoT 22 you get 8th lvl spells and monk's speed.
I'd swap WF: unarmed and maximize spell for Disarm/ID or expertise/IE.
Halfling? Why? You will be better off with human, one more feat, +43 skill points and no xp penalty.
That's all for now.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vincerò Vincerò Vincerò
If you go with your own level split or not, you get WIS 30 at lvl 28. Why not take a druid level at char level 30 to get Dragonshape then? And when Kail says something about Dragons, it is right. Build it up in a test module and watch the combat log for your AB. Then relevel, but remove WF, EWF and you'll get the same result. Just try, he speaks the truth.
Skål! _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
You want to know why I chose Halving? quite simple, check the feats, CoT really eats all useful feats pre-epic, and halving has some bonuses: +1 size bonus AB, +1 size bonus AC, +4 to Hide checks, +2 to move silentrly and listen checks, +1 to all saving throws, +2 to fear type saving throws, +1 racial bonus with throwing weapons (ok, this last is useless), I like that stuff. Skills.... anyway I don't know what else to use.
I also tested that stuff about the WF..... at least on my PC and version works fine, this is what I did:
I just made a druid with shapeshift and wrote the BAB and AB, then shapshifted into bear and wrote the AB, then leveled up with WF: unarmed, my BAB increased 1, but my unshifted AB increased 2 as should be, then I shapeshifted again, and the AB had increased by 2.
On a second test, check my build, unshifted +28, unshifted you can't deny it works, counting the +19 STR modifier with the unshifted currently -2, AB goes up to +49, and it does, if WF adn EWF wouldn't work, my shifted AB would be +46.
If you say the character sheet is wrong, then the +49 it states is not real? that could be an understandable bug.......... so I made a field test against a combat dummy in Prelude, since they don't take damage, and my AB was counting +50 on the roll information, I guess the halving size bonus added or something, but I didn't lost the WF or EWF bonus to AB, so, too bad if it doesn't works for you, it does work for me, so I'll keep it like that.
I could take the DS in earlier levels, but I took it very late to add more spellcraft and get it to 40.
The level 8th druid spells could be useful, although I think Premonition is the only level 8 bluff, but you don't get full monk speed at level 3, although it increases a bit, 10% more.
On a second test, check my build, unshifted +28, unshifted you can't deny it works, counting the +19 STR modifier with the unshifted currently -2, AB goes up to +49, and it does, if WF adn EWF wouldn't work, my shifted AB would be +46.
If you say the character sheet is wrong, then the +49 it states is not real? that could be an understandable bug.......... so I made a field test against a combat dummy in Prelude, since they don't take damage, and my AB was counting +50 on the roll information, I guess the halving size bonus added or something, but I didn't lost the WF or EWF bonus to AB, so, too bad if it doesn't works for you, it does work for me, so I'll keep it like that.
You should do the combat dummy test with and without the WF and EWF feats, you'll get a surprise, that's the only way to see if it works. Like I have said, when Kail says something about Dragons it is the truth. You might keep it like that, no worries, just do the combat dummy test then read in Kail's Order of Jormundgandr build thread.
To look at Order of Jormundgandr Click Here
*EDIT* included link _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
I tried to made it a Shadow Dragon, I really did, but there's no way, dragon shft's are green, red and blue, and barkskin changes its texture to.... um, bark, but nothing black.
Hmm, if you were willing to use a spell to change the appearance, i believe the wizard spell shadow shield might do the trick? Not sure about xp penalties though...
Have you taken into consideration dragon's +6 claws and -2 AB due to size (huge)?
You see the sheet show your AB calculated this way:
AB (sheet)= BAB (26)+ STR mod (19)+ WF (1)+ EWF (2)+ EP (1) = 49
or AB (sheet) = 46 without WF/EWF
The real AB takes into account different factors:
AB (real)= BAB (26) + STR mod (19) + EP (1) + dragon claws enhancement bonus (6) + size modifier (-2) = 50
Therefore the sheet is off 4 points if you didn't take WF/EWF feats or 1 point if you did take them. No halfling racial boni apply, sorry. Test with combat debugging enabled (without it tests can give some unreliable results) and you'llsee for yourself, you don't have to trust my word
About the rest, halfling bonus to AB/AC due to size is lost when you shift, AB bonus to ranged attack is lost since you have no ranged attack as a dragon, the only thing you keep is the +1 to saves but with 24 CoT lvls last thing you have to worry about is saves IMO. Unshifted all halfling boni apply, and the ranged bonus is useful if you take Zen Archery. Still, human is a good choice and CoT is not giving you all the nice preepic feats: what about disarm/ID coupled with huge sized claws or expertise/IE? Human would also remove XP penalty (which you have for all of your career practically but maybe that's no issue to you, I'm just pointing it out),and give skill points could be used to max out hide/MS (not bad for someone with a dex of 36), take some animal empathy for those difficult early lvls, and heal or cross class skills (some ranks in open locks f.e.). BTW, tumble needs only 40 ranks and spellcraft either 38 or 43. You are not taking advantage of Halfling bonus to DEX either, and the +1 AB gets balanced by the further -1 AB due to 6 STR.
About the lvl split I suggested, you'd lose 1 from saves (but that's no biggie) for some more speed and lvl 8 spells. I disagree that premonition is the only useful spell, especially given your dragon natural DR and anyhow you could extend aura of vitality with lvl 8 spell slots. Besides, by taking 15 druid lvls you could pick up DS at 30th lvl and still max out spellcraft at 40th lvl (43+2=45 for +9 saves vs spells) which would net you a +1 to saves vs spells.
A final consideration is that, saves apart, going druid 28/CoT 10 would probably do you more good (or maybe druid 24/Monk 6/ CoT 10), you'd have increased spellpower, elemental forms, a stronger companion for just one epic feat slot (and considering EWF doesn't do any good when shifted...).
It's all just friendly suggestions, mind me... apart the fact WF/EWF: unarmed do not work shifted , that's just how it is
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vincerò Vincerò Vincerò
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 02/14/06 01:43
Then the race change fits in....
I'm not thinking in fighting unshifted, that's why I said only Premonition, I know druid spells, but that's the only "bluff" I see useful, I didn't really mean all level 8 is no good.
I took several CoT levels for the saves and the divine might, which gets very strong and can be used shapeshifted, when I thought on increasing Monk, you get Kd and IKD, but CoT bonus pre-epic feats works even better, 1 AC and some speed, and for some more IE, but Evasion is already impressive enough with that reflex, also, CoT works as an epic class since CoT level 11, which gives me more feats, changing the EWF will help on the feats, but WF was pre-epic, so I'm not sure what to choose there. I could increase the druid, but aqs long as Divine Might stays strong, I like it.
Have you seen the Animal Companion? nobody seems to notice, but their AC is so freakin' low! their AC doesn't increases unless that companion increases in DEX, I might think of using it if my character had sneak attack, and although the Animal Copmpanion can get strong, specially with the special animal companion bluffs, I've had an Animal Companion with a level 38 druid, and it dies very quickly, the most usefulness in the Animal Companion I've got was a weird "bug" with the brnach of giving, which made the extra 1d10 fire or cold damage trespass every immunity.
You probably mean divine wrath, right? In that case nothing changes from 20th to 24th lvl so my suggestion to go Monk 3/Druid 15/ CoT 22 costs you only +1 to saves. The 8th lvl spell slots you'd get can be used to memorize extended (therefore longer lasting) aura of vitality a very useful buffing spell. By the way, Divine Wrath it's 1/day for five rounds only, dunno how helpful it is. Smite evil is also usable only 1/day.
Epic CoT gives you one more feat only, the real thing is the save boni. Be careful though those boni count towards the +20 cap (and you already hit +12 with CoT only).
My feat advices are the same as in the previous post (expertise/IE, disarm/ID instead of WF and maximize, zen archery's worth considering too).
IMO druids are quite survivable, so that a heavy druid build will fare good. Tattoed Monk made a good build here, lvl split can be slightly different (I'd go for druid 25/Monk 7/CoT 8 for example for undispellable buffs). Or as I said, Druid 28/ CoT 10/ Monk 2. Considering the limited uses per day you have for your special CoT powers and the points you take away from WIS (and therefore from AC and possibly ranged AB with zen archery) it's a good alternative. The only real loss would be lower saves. But they will still be above 30 unshifted and above 40 shifted (consider that by dropping CHA you can put points in starting CON/DEX for save boost unshifted and shifted shape will actually benefit from higher WIS). The more I think about it the better it looks, but maybe it's just me
Animal companion might be kinda weak, but with the right buffs it gets decent.
It's all a matter of taste anyhow, so go with what suits you best.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vincerò Vincerò Vincerò
My version of the build relies on disarm + improved disarm, waits till the late epics to bother with monk and then only one level, uses the wasted epic bonus feats for great charisma to boost divine wrath's duration, which gets another 2 ab and divine damage at level 25. It's really difficult to resist a disarm from an huge unarmed dragon with a 70 ab. By no means a superior build, as his free deflect arrows feat is compromised.
Yes, divine wrath, hey, it can be casted while shapeshifted, even though it will last 5 rounds it gives +9 AB and damage, which I think is a great boost over the dragon shapeshift, would work fine for one fight (me thinking in PvP). 3 smites per day, it has Extra Smiting.
A but a Monk 3 / Druid 17 / Champion of Torm 20 would get druid spells level 9, wouldn't that be better? a Monk 1 / Druid 14 / Champion of Torm 25 would have the divine might increased to +10...... but I don't think it's worth that far.
Ok, shamely to say, I don't really know what Disarm is good for.....
Winning an opposed disarm roll playing an unarmed monk automaticly snatches (places the enemy weapon) in your inventory. The this gives you power to bargain with unruly devcritters as they cannot possibly harm you without their precious tool. I am also working on a parry using version of this build, as the dragonform dex is pretty high. With skillfocus parry, improved parry, epic skillfocus parry and a sold dex buff, his multiple attacks can easily deflect and counterattack one opponent all day long at his highest (monk) attack rate.
You can only parry 3 attack per round maximum - the first each flurry. _________________ Fanget av begravelsen pines vi av guds godhet ingen flammer, intet hat de hadde rett vi kom til Helvete...
~ Burzum - Hvis Lyset Tar Oss
Forget parry, that skill is broken _________________ Wait for me Dragon, we'll meet in the sky By fire and magic, I'm sworn Hell is calling, we cannot be denied Fly to the blackness of the Storm
We must die to be reborn!
Disarm sounds good, but I wouldn't worry much for dev crit, I mean, I bluff myself with Extended Death Ward, I thought that makes me immune to instant death anyway.
We tested parry to death and found it quite viable on Athas Reborn. Do you only get 3 parry attempts with a non-warrior class? You should only get as many parries as you have attacks per round. Given this build has 6 attacks without a flurry, it's really not a problem.
We tested parry to death and found it quite viable on Athas Reborn. Do you only get 3 parry attempts with a non-warrior class? You should only get as many parries as you have attacks per round. Given this build has 6 attacks without a flurry, it's really not a problem.
You can only parry 3 attack per round maximum - the first each flurry.
And that's it. _________________ The world is grey, the mountain's old The forge's fire is ashen and cold No harp is wrung, no hammer falls The darkness dwells in Druin's halls...
~ Summoning - Khazad-Dúm
By "it" do you mean low AB was your problem or that parry is restricted to 3 attacks per round?
By "it" do you mean low AB was your problem or that parry is restricted to 3 attacks per round?
I have no problems ( ), I meant that's it as in that's the truth and the whole truth, there's nothing more to the parry issue, the skill is broken. End of discussion
The skill description, AFAIK, holds when you have three or less attacks - eg. if you have 2 attacks you do not attack and in the last flurry and also may not parry in the last flurry. With three attacks, you may parry the first attack in each flurry. Thus, if your opponent has more than three attacks, and assuming you have more than three attacks (as this build does), you're hindering your battling capability by going to parry mode. Actually, the more attacks you have the more you hurt yourself by using Parry, as it sacrifices all your attacks for three parry attempts which may or may not result in a riposte attack.
I hope I made sense. _________________ The world is grey, the mountain's old The forge's fire is ashen and cold No harp is wrung, no hammer falls The darkness dwells in Druin's halls...
I am picturing an old man in a white suit surrounded by monitors using words like thus, ergo and vis-a-vis, convinced that the book is correct because it is the book. Thanks for your prompt, if abrupt reply.
As Finn says, parry attempts are limited to 3 per round, specifically you can try to parry only the first attack in each flurry. Even more, each riposte counts towards your 3 maximum parry attempts; therefore if you parry the first attack in the first flurry and you get a riposte you are left with only one parry attempt. When you have many attacks per round you are generally better off by going offensive and landing as many hits as possible or if you wanna go defensive use expertise/IE. If you face an opponent with many attacks per round, parry is not a wise choice cause you'll be blocking at most 3 of their attacks or even less if you get a riposte. Again, you are better off going offensive or exp/IE mode, generally speaking (or knock 'em down).
If parry were implemented the way it was advertised then it would be a much more viable choice. The way it works makes it quite unviable IMO.
Even more, each riposte counts towards your 3 maximum parry attempts; therefore if you parry the first attack in the first flurry and you get a riposte you are left with only one parry attempt.
Hmm, are you sure?
Quote: If parry were implemented the way it was advertised then it would be a much more viable choice. The way it works makes it quite unviable IMO.
Indeed. And Parry is a strange skill anyway, since AC already factors parrying/dodging/deflecting the foe's attacks, or the foe's attacks not dealing damage because of armor, does it not? _________________ The world is grey, the mountain's old The forge's fire is ashen and cold No harp is wrung, no hammer falls The darkness dwells in Druin's halls...
If I ever thought of parrying (which wasn't really the case), now I won't even think about it, you guys just made me know I was right of not using it. But you got too exceeded, nobody seems to remember the build at this point.
Sorry for the double post, but there's a tecnical stuff I need to know, and this is the place to ask it, since it's for the new version of my dragon.
Since I'm going to use Monk at level 1 in my new split, I don't gain KD and IKD, I can easily get them on feats, the thing is, IKD gives a bonus to size when trying to knock the enemy, but does it still adds a size bonus after already being a dragon? because if not, I shouldn't get IKD, or it would be a waste of a feat, and the more feats I can get the better, since I'll try to get Improved Disarm and need some to spare, it works great in a dragon. I didn't think about it last time, because CoT got me more feats than what I needed, and I realized I have no idea if IKD works better than KD after already being a dragon.
I'm going for a Monk 1 / Druid 14 / Assassin 25 split if you were asking yourself what stupid stuff I'm trying.
), I meant that's it as in that's the truth and the whole truth, there's nothing more to the parry issue, the skill is broken. End of discussion 