This build is based in no small part on Zelle's Nature's Faces build, but features a different progression based on different priorities. Thanks Zelle for your excellent work. Also thanks to Douglas Crews for his Shifter FAQ. The focus of this build is to maximize playability from 1-40 without compromising level 40 power.
Differences from Zelle's Build. 1) Earlier access to Epic Shapes which makes the game much easier. This also does not come at a cost of less power later on. Undead Shape at level 24 vs level 33 Outsider Shape at level 27 vs level 33 Construct Shape at level 31 vs level 38 Dragon Shape at level 36 vs level 39 2) 1 Extra Epic Feat (Armor Skin) since we started with 18 Wisdom instead of 17 and could skip Great Wisdom IV. This comes at a cost of 10 ST instead of 13, but since none of our feats requires 13 ST, it doesn't matter. 3) No Discipline Skill. With most shapes having fairly high AC, discipline is probably superfluous.
Race Human Alignment Lawful Neutral
Starting(Ending)
Str 10 Dex 10 Con 12 Wis 18 (31) Int 14 Cha 8
Skill points 301 HP 400 AC 30 naked AB +25/+20/+15 Saves Fort +25 Reflex +20 Will +30
*Feats that can be changed without altering the integrity of the build. Some interesting alternatives would be Disarm/Improved Disarm instead of Expertise. Dragon shape can disarm .
I tried to come up with a way to not end up with 31 Wis. But There aren't any good alternatives if you want Dragon shape earlier. Also 31 Wis and +11 from Owl's Wisdom, gets you 42 which is pretty nice.
Drop 2 Druid levels for 2 Shifter levels. You get an extra bonus feat which can be Great Wisdom.
TM
Well, dragons make a great Disarm, but not all shapes do...
What I would really think is a feat that can be changed is Combat Casting, it's only 4 on Concentration, now, what to put in its place? Blind-Fight or Improved Critical: unarmed are good feats IMO.
About playability, you take the Monk level up until level 38, getting Monk from the start gives neat AC and AB bonus.
I would consider Discipline quite handy at any rate, since most shifts are melee, you can't be counting on your AC making you invincible, even a dragon can recieve a knockdown (unless you can get inmunity to knockdown from, say, your helmet, I've seen helmets with that), and mainly against who you would need a discipline check has a high AB.
I wear Dragon Slippers
I thought dragons are immune to knockdown?
Boots doesn't transfer into forms, at least not in some forms like Dragonshape, but with the Dragon Stength, your discipline gets a good boost, if you have maxed it before. Dragons aren't immune to KD, and without uncanny dodge a Dragon looses huge amount of AC on his back. Even with uncanny he looses 20 AC, so GET DISCIPLINE. I am also sure there quite a few slight variations on Zelle's shifter, which was a straight level 40 build, btw. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Well, dragons make a great Disarm, but not all shapes do...
What I would really think is a feat that can be changed is Combat Casting, it's only 4 on Concentration, now, what to put in its place? Blind-Fight or Improved Critical: unarmed are good feats IMO.
About playability, you take the Monk level up until level 38, getting Monk from the start gives neat AC and AB bonus.
I would consider Discipline quite handy at any rate, since most shifts are melee, you can't be counting on your AC making you invincible, even a dragon can recieve a knockdown (unless you can get inmunity to knockdown from, say, your helmet, I've seen helmets with that), and mainly against who you would need a discipline check has a high AB.
Combat Casting is very helpful levels 1-12 since you fight as a pure druid, and both blindfight and Imp Crit UA are not useful until you can shapeshift. But I agree that it is not essential to the build. I meant to put an asterisk next to combat casting.
As for taking the monk level earlier, taking it at less than level 20 sacrifices one +BAB, and you need every + you can take. It also makes it impossible to do the Tumble skill dump, which gives you +8 AC, even if you go crossclass, you lose +4 AC. Taking monk earlier does give you some +AC from wisdom, and cleave.
Boots doesn't transfer into forms, at least not in some forms like Dragonshape, but with the Dragon Stength, your discipline gets a good boost, if you have maxed it before. Dragons aren't immune to KD, and without uncanny dodge a Dragon looses huge amount of AC on his back. Even with uncanny he looses 20 AC, so GET DISCIPLINE. I am also sure there quite a few slight variations on Zelle's shifter, which was a straight level 40 build, btw.
Boots will transfer into almost all forms. The only forms that will not merge boots are Manticore, Basilisk, Dire Tiger, Death Slaad Lord, Spectre, Demonflesh Golem, And Dragon.
As for Dragons and Discipline, Max Discipline is 43 +19 for Dragon Strength is 62. Naked dragon AC for this build is 68. With Owl's Insight only, it is 74.
It comes down to personal preference. If you feel a 43 point skill dump is necessary to protect against knockdown when your AC is already 74, and a roll of 78 is necessary to even land a knockdown (-4 for knockdown attempt), then by all means do it. Remember you will need to roll a 16 to resist that any knockdown that even lands (62+16=78). I personally am not convinced that it is a wise expenditure of skill points, especially for a paltry 25% chance to resist Knockdown. Granted if there is a size difference, that may help your roll.
I don't think you really lose all that much without discipline, but this is just a idea based loosely on Zelle's Nature's Faces build, and does not pretend to any uberness.
P.S. the only builds the search engine finds under Zelle is a Druid22/Shifter17/Monk1 and Druid6/Shifter17/Rogue17.
Edited By Shen_Chuen on 03/24/06 00:46
You haven't posted if it's PvM or PvP or if it's playable 1-40 or anything like that. But without discipline it quickly looses PvP ability. One just need to spam KD's until he rolls a 20, and you are down for sure. Then wave goodbye to all your dodge and DEX ac, which will be more than 30 points of AC. Then the hits and crits will hit you like a wave of doom, 100 hitpoints quickly becomes none.
If it is PvM only, then your point is good. If your Ac is higher than your max discipline it becomes useless in a PvM build. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
You haven't posted if it's PvM or PvP or if it's playable 1-40 or anything like that. But without discipline it quickly looses PvP ability. One just need to spam KD's until he rolls a 20, and you are down for sure. Then wave goodbye to all your dodge and DEX ac, which will be more than 30 points of AC. Then the hits and crits will hit you like a wave of doom, 100 hitpoints quickly becomes none.
If it is PvM only, then your point is good. If your Ac is higher than your max discipline it becomes useless in a PvM build.
A good point. I don't PVP much. I can see how it could be weaker PVP without Discipline.
Edited By Shen_Chuen on 03/24/06 08:35
If Discipline is your thing, you might want to move the Monk level to level 40 so as to maximize the skill dump into discipline. This build does not suffer from lack of skill points, so discipline could easily be accomodated.
Your naked Dragon AC is 61 not 68. Here's the computing:
AC = 10 Base + 2 Armor Skin +13 DEX bonus +10 WIS bonus +8 Tumble +20 Dragon shape dodge -2 Huge size = 61
Aura of Vitality and Owl's Wisdom give you +2 DEX bonus +6 WIS bonus for a final buffed AC of 69.
This numbers make discipline much more useful, more so with empowered bull's strength.
Discipline is a must for PvP as Grim says, I've been knocking down my share of dragons wannabe with my Monastic Commando.
Extend Spell is much more useful than CC, AoV has a short duration, you surely wanna extend it.
Skills: max discipline, hide and MS. Lore and persuade are much less useful (unless it's for RP reasons). Animal Empathy seems a little high at 28 when you have more important skills to focus on. Heal usefulness in a build with healing spells is much reduced. Spellcraft needs only 38 ranks, or 43 otherwise (it works with modified ranks).
Hellball is no big deal IMO, I would swap it for epic prowess, or maybe ESF: discipline for PvP.
Blind Fight is extremely useful vs concealed opponents, IC is a good feat to pick.
It's nice to see a variation of Zelle's build with earlier shapes, it looks more playable than the original.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Wait for me Dragon, we'll meet in the sky By fire and magic, I'm sworn Hell is calling, we cannot be denied Fly to the blackness of the Storm
I thought about that, but it sacrifices 2 caster levels and infinite wildshape and you end up with the same buffed wisdom, 42.
It does cost 2 caster levels. You can still buff Wis to +12 though. You get +10 from Owl's Insight, and can get a guaranteed +2 from Owl's Wisdom, so you do end up with +1 Wis bonus after buffing.
Given the number of shapes you can take, I didn't think Infinite Wildshape was that big of a deal, if you use up your limit of wildshapes, you have plenty of others to choose from (and the wildshapes are really your least useful ones, anyway).
TM
Druids do not have Owl's Wisdom in their spell list though
I thought about that, but it sacrifices 2 caster levels and infinite wildshape and you end up with the same buffed wisdom, 42.
It does cost 2 caster levels. You can still buff Wis to +12 though. You get +10 from Owl's Insight, and can get a guaranteed +2 from Owl's Wisdom, so you do end up with +1 Wis bonus after buffing.
Given the number of shapes you can take, I didn't think Infinite Wildshape was that big of a deal, if you use up your limit of wildshapes, you have plenty of others to choose from (and the wildshapes are really your least useful ones, anyway).
TM
If you mean Owl's Wisdom from the potion, I am not sure that is a benefit of taking 2 more shifter levels.
Either way, you end up at the same point, except that with less druid levels your spells are slightly weaker and you lose your epic spell.
Druid22/Shifter17 Wis is 31+11+2 Druiid20/Shifter19 Wis is 32+10+2
Druid22/Shifter17 Wis is 31+11+2 Druiid20/Shifter19 Wis is 32+10+2
Both your calculations end up at 44. 1 problem though, you cannot buff any ability score more than +12. So your upper one will end up 31+11+1(!)=43. See. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Druid22/Shifter17 Wis is 31+11+2 Druiid20/Shifter19 Wis is 32+10+2
Both your calculations end up at 44. 1 problem though, you cannot buff any ability score more than +12. So your upper one will end up 31+11+1(!)=43. See.
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