AB with standard rapier + Bard Song = 43 AC with robes, tower shield, and song = 49
With stackable Cat's grace from harper scout, you can get +10 Dex with no items, which adds +5 AC and AB. GMW adds +5, and Mage armor adds 4 more AC. You could also add in War Cry for +2 AB and damage.
With these added, we have 58 AC and 55 AB.
On my PvP server, with +5 AC items and one Dex item, I ended up with 80 AC and 56 AB.
And the curse song makes you even more powerful.
A dex based Dragon Disciple? This combonation works out very well. This build is playable while leveling and it gets really good once you start getting the Dragon Disciple bonuses. With a Bull's Strength, you have 21 Str, which is a good amount for a dex character.
I do believe that this character will do okay in an RP environment, as there aren't any alignment changes necessary.
That's what I have... what do you think?
Edited By abiscuit on 04/02/06 18:42
A dexer without uncanny dodge? Do not get caught flatfooted, man!
Did you lvl up the build in PvP? Cause if you have to lvl it up it's better to go Bard 12/RDD 8 preepic, then 21st-22nd lvl as RDD to get asap without hurting BAB all the RDD boni.
By taking RDD earlier you'll get +20 skillpoints, btw. You should definitely max discipline. Where's spellcraft? UMD is rather low, and you'll want to use all that nice monk gear. I'd probably drop concentration if finding myself with too few skillpoints available, since you're not gonna cast much in battle I guess. Uh, lore should be 8 to access RDD.
Starting with 14 CHA would free up 4 points which could go into STR setting it at 12 starting, 20 final. Not bad for a dexer. You'd have 16CHA anyhow by the time you get access to 6th lvl spells with the Bard 12/RDD 8 preepic split.
You have missed to post all the standard info: saves, HP, etc. Give a look at the sticky with the "free" template in this same page to know what I mean.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Stand and fight, live by your heart Always one more try, I'm not afraid to die Stand and fight, say what you feel Born with a Heart of Steel!
DEX based RDD? not bad.
Well, uncanny dodge is a problem of course, but you could be able to avoid it partially if you use ranged, just run and attack from the distance..... your HP isn't high either, that's another point where ranged may help.
I can't really rely on your AC information, since you don't give a naked and unbuffed AC, you pump your AC a lot with unspecified items, say, you got 49 with the song, tower shield and unspecified robes, up to 80 with +5 items, but how many +5 items? and they won't stack with Mage Armor, counting dodge, defelction, armor, natural and shield types of ACs, +25 from items and +6 max DEX to get to your AC 80, ok, it's good, I don't argue it, but be more specific, preferably give naked and unbuffed stats, it makes it much easier.
I play on the same server and can assure you that this is a good build.
Taunt + curse song makes this build have about 67 or so AB due to the enemy dropping AC. The damage is nice due to high crit threat.
Also I assure you beyond a doubt that it isnt hard to avoid flatfooting, as I think this is 1) an elf and 2) a highish listen build.
Also I assure you beyond a doubt that it isnt hard to avoid flatfooting, as I think this is 1) an elf and 2) a highish listen build.
Which does nothing vs KD
Cheers, Kail _________________ To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives They fought for you and me Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
Nor does it help vs being flat-footed.
Well, he should get Discipline, specially if he's saying he made it on a PvP server... but I could doubt it will be very effective, with only 16 STR and no skill focus discipline he could get knockdowned anyway, his check would be 46 unbuffed, if they can hit it discipline won't do much anyway.
The point is that flatfootedness is not caused just by being attacked by an unseen attacker but in a thousand and one different ways. Elf with keen senses might have an edge over hiding attackers but that's it. You are still left with a thousand and a half way to be flatfooted since elf's boni do not guarantee success in spotting, just help it.
BTW, this build has got just 30 points in listen (which is low) and a mere 4 in discipline (which is useless).
If you want to see how a dexer without uncanny dodge can make up for the lack of it check out Griz's Iron Archer /Fighter 14/Bard 4/Arcane Archer 22.
Cheers, Kail _________________ To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives They fought for you and me Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 05/29/06 08:31
Looking at this build this is what I get for AC: 10 base +12 dex bonus +8 tumble +2 armor skin +4 RDD bonus +5 Bard Song +3 Tower Shield 44 with the equipment and buffs listed
With +5 equipment and buffs (on top of what is listed above) +6 (+12 to dexterity) +5 deflection +5 dodge +5 natural +5 armor +5 shield +1 mage armor +4 haste which will give you an 80 AC. Note that 41 of this AC is dodge AC, 18 of which is dex bonus AC and 15 counts towards the cap. It looks okay, but I would definitely take discipline. If someone spams knockdown against you, they will eventually roll a 20 and hit you. When that happens, you will fail your discipline check and be in for a round of pain. If your opponent is a strength based WM or a sneak attacking rogue one round might be enough to kill you.
While your defense is good, your offense sucks. You only have 3 attacks (4 hasted), and your damage isn't great, with a +5 keen rapier, bard song and war cry, you would do 13+1D6 (12-20 x2). I suppose you will get a fair number of critical hits, but your critical hits will do less damage than many characters do with a regular attack.
With this build the RDD doesn't add anything. If you wanted a damage boost, replace the RDD with fighter and pick up an extra attack an AB boost and WS/EWS. If you want more AC replace the RDD with PM and maybe drop some bard levels for PM and an epic spell. It isn't a bad build, and I can see it doing okay in PVP, it just seems to me there are better choices for a dexterity based Bard than RDD. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
Just a few things: as noted, no Uncanny Dodge is a bit of a problem. I can't help but think that 5 levels of Shadowdancer would be a vast improvement over 5 levels of Harper.
Also, this guy is in desperate need of ESF: Perform, and in need of it early. This is part of the problem one faces when frontloading Bard levels--the Perform skill can't keep up with Song's strength. What you can do is take Harper1 at Lvl22. Level22 is the earliest one can take Lasting Inspiration. So, drop Great Dex there and take LI instead, take Bard23 at Lvl24 and drop your 2nd Great Dex for ESF: Perform.
I also noticed that your saves aten't listed (a required spec for the Guild). But I don't need to see them to know that your Fort save is going to be pretty bad. And while you have plenty of ways to boost the save, I don't think it helps out in pre-epic where this guy is going to get fragged.
I think if you're in a party, you have a lot less to worry about, as the heat is not always on you. But that goes for all characters. I do a lot of playing between Levels 24-30, when ideally you want your Epic character to have his signature feats and to be fully matured. Aielund IV, Part 2 is a good testing ground for such builds as there are a variety of encounters that will test you both solo and with a group. Take on 1-2 of the Elder Werewolves who have Epic Dodge and a Stealth score that will beat your Listen check. I guarrantee you'll re-evaluate your build. Or take on the Hellfire Mercenary Lord who throws up Epic Warding and then proceeds to dismantle you, your friends, your family, and everybody you had listed in your Blackberry, body by body. Or come to the World of Greyhawk and try your hand at the White Slaads--you'll quickly re-evaluate everything you knew about building.
The point is, those environments aren't even PvP, and those encounters will mop the floor with this guy, so I am curious as to how he managed his success in PvP. Did he lean heavily on items? _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Thanks for the catch about the missing saves Griz, I overlooked it.
To the OP: PM me the saves and I'll edit them in.
White Slaads...ouch, they are tough things, it took me a loooong time to get rid of them, one by one, with my WM and it was only after I understood the only way I could beat them with that build.
Cheers, Kail _________________ To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives They fought for you and me Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
Even though I am a big fan of saving throws, I have to chime in that I think this character's biggest problem is damage output. It's just critically low. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
What are White Slaads, (more specifically why are they so specially deadly, as, I know, Slaads in White color) and why would they make someone re-evaluate everything one knew about building? I obviously have never seen one of those.
Quote: I built this on a PvP server and I'm pretty sure it can do well on an RP server. I have never played RP so I'm just speculating...
He didn't actually stated that he was powerful in that PvP server. Damage is low, probably there is no DR stuff, but a Dwarven Defender could resist all his damage, criticals would barely damage a DR 30.
What are White Slaads, (more specifically why are they so specially deadly, as, I know, Slaads in White color) and why would they make someone re-evaluate everything one knew about building? I obviously have never seen one of those.
Roll up one of your toughies from the guild and bring him over to World of Greyhawk, and I'll personally introduce you. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Im downloading the CEP in the background right now, so expect to see someone by the name of either Divine Fayth or Freedom-Fighta roaming around.
EDIT: I will not be using this build, but something else, whenever I decide what that something else is...