The goal of this build was to make a dex-based ED/SCV build that gets both HiPS and ED as soon as possible, has high AC (therefore shield instead of dual-wielding), has good sneak damage, and good AB. I was surprised not to find a single build with this level distribution in the search engine. I chose Hobbit for the Dex bonus, whic allows you to get ED at level 21. I started looking at Rogue 20/Fighter 10/SD 10 builds, but found that the SD levels pre-epic meant that I only had 2 dice of sneak damage at level 21, and got Crippling Strike very late. Stopping at SD level 5 means I have to burn a Rogue feat on Imp Evasion, but I get an extra Rogue feat so I only lose Slippery Mind, and a lot more Rogue levels early (not much difference in sneak damage at level 40, but a big difference early in the build). Intended for playing from level 1, early survivability was a major goal.
Disable Trap 34(38), Hide 43(54), Move Silently 43(56), Open Lock 43(54), Search 40(42), Set Trap 32(45), Tumble 40(51), UMD 41(40), 44 left over.
Notes:
The main aim was getting the important goodies early. HiPS at level 8 (earliest possible), ED at 21 (earliest possible), Crippling Strike at 22 (not earliest possible, but pretty good), EWF/EWS at 24. By level 24 he is pretty close to fully developed except for SC and Skill Mastery, with HiPS, ED, EWS, CS and 7d6 of sneak damage.
You could go with Dwarf or Human if you are willing to wait to level 24 for ED (will take some modification of the epic feats/levelling). Dwarf would have 80 more HP, human will have 40 more HP and skillpoints, and an extra pre-epic feat (could easily fit in the TWF feats by dropping the optional feat and Toughness).
Skills: He can detect all traps, set/disable all traps even in combat, has maxed Open Locks, Tumble, and UMD. You cold probably drop UMD somewhat for something else if you want, depending on what items/scrolls you need to be able to use.
Discipline - I skipped it, even though you have enough skillpoints if you want it. Due to his low Str, discipline won't be great even with it maxed - his AC is likely to be 20+ higher than his discipline for most of the build anyway, meaning anything that hits him will beat it anyway (except natural 20's on lower AB enemies). You can add it, although to make it useful you would want to spread the fighter levels out for skill dumps. That delays things like WS and Epic Prowess, and I was aiming for early maturity (except for SCV, of course). Feel free to add it in if you want it. If you don't, use the left over points for something useful on the PW or module (persuade, appraise, whatever).
TWF - Since he has low HP, and I was aiming for survivability, I went with one weapon and a shield. Higher AC really helps with ED. You can add it in by dropping Toughness and the optional feat and moving 2 fighter levels pre-epic (will cost you Armor Skin or one other epic feat). Or you could drop Blindfight, but I really like having that for any melee type.
KD - it's very nice for getting in those extra sneaks. HiPS is great, but you still only get 2 sneaks in the first flurry, even hasted - a successful IKD boosts that to 4 or 5 per round, which with his high sneak damage really adds up. You could drop it for Expertise/IE if you prefer more AC.
SCV - if you are willing to skip this, you can drop 2 Rogue levels for Fighter, move EWF to a bonus feat, and take 4 more Great Dex (final Dex = 36). Gains you 2 for AB, AC, Reflex save, and dex-based skills. Probably a good idea if concealment is easily available from scrolls or items.
TM
Edited By Tattoed Monk on 04/17/06 15:44
It has been awhile since TM has posted a build. This is true to the mark and meets all his goals. I have played the Temple Guardian also by TM and was extremely happy.
This build is a great utility charater that would give you a bit of everything.
I like it. Thanks for the build.
Another nice one, TM, though I can't seem to find where you took your first monk level. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Thanks guys.
I developed it because I have noticed that a lot of my favorite modules (Aielund, Shadowlords, Runes of Blood, etc.) only go up to the late teens or early 20's in character level. And a lot of builds don't get their key feats until later than that, which leaves you struggling for most of the module, then suddenly overpowered when/if you finally get HiPS at 21, or ED at 27, or Dev Crit at 27, or Dragon Shape at 30, etc. So I wanted one that would get the key feats early, when they will really help since your charcter is weaker, but not overpower because your character is weaker.
Another nice one, TM, though I can't seem to find where you took your first monk level.
That would be level 41.... Then he gets REAL tough.
Actually, I considered a variant of Felonius Monk for this one, but a lot of those same modules have a real lack of decent kama's. Elf gets an XP penalty with monk and rogue, and Halfling's are small, so have lower unarmed damage, so I decided to go with Fighter and SD instead.
TM
Well done TM, I'm surprised too this lvl split hadn't been used before. You get everything you want and you get it soon too. I wouldn't change a thing in this build.
Kudos to this little hobbit!
Cheers, Kail _________________ Dilegua notte Tramontate stelle Tramontate stelle All'alba vinceṛ Vinceṛ Vinceṛ
Aye, this is one nice and easily playable build, but I prefer Rogue29/SD1, because the only thing SD brings to a rogue-heavy build is HiPS. Actually, it would net you one feat too, losing Def roll from SD, but getting it from Rog26. then getting another feat at rogue 29. It would as a minor bonus increase your skillpoints a little too. _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG
Grim, rogues get bonus feats every 4 lvls though, that makes it at 24th and 28th lvl. So it's the same number of feats, but more skillpoints and stronger sneak attack. And -1 to AB if taking SD preepic.
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 04/18/06 00:28
A bummer on the feats..... *sigh* He doesn't need to loose AB, going for 7 fighter pre-epic. But I would loose 1 AB for more skillpoints and sneak-damage anyday. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Not losing AB with FTR 7 preepic means 1 less epic feat though... maybe EP which means -1 AB eh-eh. But I see your point... although I would probably just delay SD in epic, personally.
I only thought he took the SD5 to keep the character honest, in other words, to mitigate the SD1 cheese. More than a few servers have such restrictions on how much SD is academically honest. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
I took the 4 SD levels pre-epic because I wanted to start taking SD at level 8, and didn't want to lose the BAB (since it would cost me the 4th attack per round). Once you are at SD 4, it made sense to take 5 for Defensive Roll. Also, there are a few nice goodies in the first 4 SD levels - the Shadow summons is actually quite useful as a distraction for those lower levels (he's not so great at level 40, but he's really useful at level 10). Even at high levels, he will usually last at least 1 or 2 rounds, letting you get in 5-10 sneak attacks, which is significant with 13d6 per hit. Shadow Daze is also useful at low levels, and even Shadow Evade is useful in low-magic environments.
If you want to take only 1 SD level, and some more fighter, you can certainly do that. It would make it a lot easier to get ITWF, so you should focus on dagger instead of shortsword. It does cost you 1 epic feat - your choice of Epic Prowess, Armor Skin, Cripping Strike or Skill Mastery, and will delay one of the Rogue feats by 4 levels to fit Defensive Roll in (probably delay Crippling Strike). You will pick up 2 sneak dice, and 8 skill points. The skill points aren't a big deal - you have enough to max all the required skills with 44 left over (or 1 left over if you pump Discipline), so 8 more points isn't going to make a big difference. For 13d6 vs. 15d6 sneaks, well more is always better, but I am not sure it will make a big difference in effectiveness. But there are already a lot of SD1 builds like that.
Oh, I had another thought about the optional feat at level 18 - Called Shot would be nice to add to that first sneak attack.
TM
Nice build and well done on meeting your objectives.
I too usually take SD5 for the same reasons: HIPS ASAP, then 4 SD pre-epic to maintain BAB, then SD5 for Def. Roll.
Quote: Posted 04/18/06 13:11:29 (GMT) -- Tattoed Monk Oh, I had another thought about the optional feat at level 18 - Called Shot would be nice to add to that first sneak attack.
Hmmm. Does anyone know if Called Shot-Arm stacks with Crippling Strike?
Yes, it does, although the Called Shot effect is temporary (4 rounds, if I recall). Multiple Called Shots also stack within that duration.
I only thought he took the SD5 to keep the character honest, in other words, to mitigate the SD1 cheese. More than a few servers have such restrictions on how much SD is academically honest.
I was primarily motivated by the BAB issue, although I do not generally care for builds that use 1 level of any class (including monk!). I generally aim for at least 4-5 levels of each class in my builds - just feels more realistic to me.
This one will be good for servers that require 5 or more levels of SD, though.
TM
Edited By Tattoed Monk on 04/18/06 14:00
If he NEEDS more shadowdancer it's a different story. In this forum, you don't.
However, I would still sacrifice 1 BAB for more skillpoints and sneak-damage anyday. That was the point I was making. You all hold valid points, I would just do it different.
Except for HiPS I have never found good use for shadowdancers, but that part is a discussion for another place. _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG
However, I would still sacrifice 1 BAB for more skillpoints and sneak-damage anyday. That was the point I was making. You all hold valid points, I would just do it different.
I would agree about 1 point of AB (by sacrificing Epic Prowess), but I disagree about 1 point of BAB, since that would cost him the 4th attack. With only 3 attacks per round, he only gets 1 in the first flurry. Unless he gets an IKD or has a perma-haste item, that will be the only one with sneak damage. So you would be doing 1 attack with 15d6 vs. 2 with 13d6.
So if you want the 1 level of SD route, I would take 7 fighter pre-epic, and lose the epic feat (your pick of which one) rather than take more Rogue pre-epic and lost 1 BAB.
TM
Build Update: I adjusted the pre-epic levelling order somewhat, to optimize the skill dumps (new order lets you get UMD to multiples of 5 earlier, and more sneak damage earlier). You can change the pre-epic part of the first version to this version. I also changed the epic section for environments where Self-Conceal is not necessary (i.e. where there is easy access to items that grant it, Cloaks of Displacement, scrolls of Imp Invis., etc.). You can pick either the original epic progresison for SCV, or this one for no SCV but slightly higher AB, AC, and more sneak damage.
