A Holy Sword for Dark Days Rogue 3/Weaponmaster 22/Paladin 15 Human, Lawful Good PvE 1-40
The character search revealed no hits for this class combination but I posted a similar build with monk instead of rogue. Monk is stout, adds feats (took Monk to 6 and WM to 19) BUT AC is subject to flat-footed penalty. Which . . . is troublesome. So here's a Holy Sword for Dark Days.
Fort base/spcraft (charisma): 23/27 Dex base/spcraft (charisma): 21/25 Will base/spcraft (charisma): 18/22
He can use any item in the game, including scrolls. If you put plate on him, his AC goes up by one. I might trade a good bit of set traps and heal for 43 listen, which can be useful v. the HIPSters. You can build it dexer and get 8 more AC but the damage goes way down, which is a concern when you are multiplying it. No room for IKD, which is sad, but you will crit pretty fierce and you have 2d6 sneaks going for you, too.
The rais d'etre of the build is his AB, of course. Which is pretty stout. And the criticals.
I played around with the allocation of ability points between Charisma and Constitution and resolved that Fortitude and 80 hitpoint was more important than the benefit of say a 12 charisma. Build to taste of course.
Good hunting.
Ithacan
Feat correction - Kail Pendragon
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 04/25/06 21:38
I like this a lot, but I'd encourage you to buff charisma to 10, since I'm pretty sure Cha 8 is going to net you a -1 penalty to all saves (it does with blackguard, anyway...) _________________ CATS!
Not with paladin
yeah, not with pally. and with charisma-boosting equipment, saves just get better.
cheers.
Ithacan
Quote: Posted 04/24/06 21:00:28 (GMT) -- Ithacan
A Holy Sword for Dark Days Rogue 3/Weaponmaster 22/Paladin 15 Human, S: 14 to 30 D: 14 C: 14 W: 14 I: 14 CH: 8
1 Pal 1 Feat: WF Rapier*; Feat: Dodge 2 Pal 2 3 Pal 3 Feat: Mobility 4 Pal 4: STR (15) 5 Pal 5 6 Pal 6 Feat: Expertise 7 Pal 7 8 Pal 8 STR (16) 9 Pal 9 Feat: Spring Attack 10 Pal 10 11 Pal 11 12 Pal 12 Feat: Whirlwind Attack; STR (17) 13 Pal 13 14 Pal 14 15 Weapon Master 1 Feat: Extend Spell 16 Weapon Master 2 STR (18) 17 Weapon Master 3 18 Weapon Master 4 Feat: ImpCrit; 19 Weapon Master 5 20 Weapon Master 6 STR (19) 21 Weapon Master 7 Feat: Gr Str I (20) 22 Rogue 1 23 Pal 15 24 Weapon Master 8 Feat: Great Strength II (21); STR (22) 25 Weapon Master 9 26 Weapon Master 10 27 Rogue 2 Feat: Gr Str (23) 28 Weapon Master 11 STR (24) 29 Weapon Master 12 30 Weapon Master 13 Feat: Epic Discipline; WM Feat: EWF 31 Weapon Master 14 32 Weapon Master 15 STR (25) 33 Weapon Master16 Feat: GrStr (26); 34 Weapon Master17 WM Feat: Armor Skin 35 Weapon Master18 36 Weapon Master19 Feat: GrStr (27); STR (28); WM Feat: Epic Prowess 37 Rog 3 38 Weapon Master20 39 Weapon Master21 Feat: GrStr (29) 40 Weapon Master22 STR (30) WM Feat: Epic Damage Reduction I
I'm LOVING the idea! Question: how does one take EDRI with a con of 14? I know that the prc class Legendary Dreadnaught gives this feat, but I'm fairly certain that wm requires you to qualify for it. Please let me know if they have changed this.
Peace
He can't. I'm not sure what he was thinking, but it's probably residue from a previous attempt that probably aimed for EDR.
The only other thing I see, is why Paladin at all? I noticed your preamble mentions that there was little reason to go beyond 15 levels of Paladin, but I can think of many. Such as, getting 3 Holy Swords a day instead of one, and increasing the duration of all you buffs, particularly Holy Sword. It has also been determined that Paladin level has a direct correlation to the effectiveness of the on-hit Dispel (though what formula is used is anybody's guess). In other word's, not all Holy Weapons are created equal.
But with no charisma, no Smiting or Divine feats, I'm not sure why you took Paladin at all, unless it was to buff, and in which case, why not take a Cleric and get better buffs? _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
But with no charisma, no Smiting or Divine feats, I'm not sure why you took Paladin at all, unless it was to buff, and in which case, why not take a Cleric and get better buffs?
Exactly. I'd make him a smiter, with WM paying up for the loss of AB when you're going CHA based. _________________ "And one calculates time from the dies nefastus on which this fatality arose – from the first day of Christianity! – Why not rather from its last? – From today? – Revaluation of all values!"
Well the Grimoire indicates that the WM class gets Damage Reduction as a feat and when you click on it, it jumps to the barbarian DR -1 off every attack.
As for the other, well, you could take cleric at the cost of five AB (three base (you'd take cleric to 12 in pre-epic) and two for having to allocate ability points from STR to WIS for the level 8 spells. Your AB would still be ok but it'd be a completely different build.
All in all, I like the build as scripted. You might have to take Improved Whirlwind Attack - useless - instead of DR but I will have to check that. If so, the choice between three extra pally levels and the three WM levels becomes tighter. One AB and a useless bonus feat v. extra spell slots, effectiveness, and duration. So you would be pally 18, WM 19, rog 3. Which could work.
WMs get EDR as a bonus feat if they meet the requirements. You do not. _________________ "And one calculates time from the dies nefastus on which this fatality arose – from the first day of Christianity! – Why not rather from its last? – From today? – Revaluation of all values!"
EDR requirement is 21 CON by the way.
And you don't qualify for Improved Whirlwind Attack either, IIRC, the requirement is 25 DEX.
Quote: Posted 04/25/06 13:40:05 (GMT) -- Ithacan
All in all, I like the build as scripted. You might have to take Improved Whirlwind Attack - useless - instead of DR but I will have to check that. If so, the choice between three extra pally levels and the three WM levels becomes tighter. One AB and a useless bonus feat v. extra spell slots, effectiveness, and duration. So you would be pally 18, WM 19, rog 3. Which could work.
That would be much better. You can't even take Improved Whirlwind Attack, given your dexterity, so it's the choice of more/better buffs and 20 hp/one AB.
Also, I'd say you should drop Strength for Charisma. Paladin is pointless without Charisma, and higher Charisma means you could get Divine Might/Shield. You could keep 2 points of strength by dropping Dex to 12, since buffing your dex does nothing for you that plate mail won't.
Of course, you could keep the unarmored option solid if you switched rogue to monk, but that would mess up the concept. _________________ CATS!
It won't be the first time the Grimoire is wrong but if you go to Prestige Class - Weaponmaster and look at the feats, it says Damage Reduction, not Epic Damage Reduction. And if you click on it, it sends you here:
Damage Reduction I - IV Type of Feat: Class Prerequisite: Barbarian 11 Specifics: This feat allows the character to shrug off damage from each attack. · Level 11 Damage Reduction I 1/- · Level 14 Damage Reduction II 2/- · Level 17 Damage Reduction III 3/- · Level 20 Damage Reduction IV 4/- Use: Automatic
Soooooo, I am guessing that it's wrong, based on who has aligned themselves against me. And I don't think there is any feat that this guy will qualify for if not this one. Soooooo, what? Paladin 18, make the casters happy? Costs you an AB.
Quote: Posted 04/25/06 16:25:47 (GMT) -- Ithacan
It won't be the first time the Grimoire is wrong but if you go to Prestige Class - Weaponmaster and look at the feats, it says Damage Reduction, not Epic Damage Reduction. And if you click on it, it sends you here:
Damage Reduction I - IV Type of Feat: Class Prerequisite: Barbarian 11 Specifics: This feat allows the character to shrug off damage from each attack. · Level 11 Damage Reduction I 1/- · Level 14 Damage Reduction II 2/- · Level 17 Damage Reduction III 3/- · Level 20 Damage Reduction IV 4/- Use: Automatic
Soooooo, I am guessing that it's wrong, based on who has aligned themselves against me. And I don't think there is any feat that this guy will qualify for if not this one. Soooooo, what? Paladin 18, make the casters happy? Costs you an AB.
It should say EDR. Only Barbarian and Dwarven Defenders can get other DR.
You could keep WM for Epic Toughness. Which isn't exactly a wise move. 1 AB isn't going to matter that much. _________________ CATS!
The only other thing I see, is why Paladin at all? I noticed your preamble mentions that there was little reason to go beyond 15 levels of Paladin, but I can think of many. Such as, getting 3 Holy Swords a day instead of one, and increasing the duration of all you buffs, particularly Holy Sword. It has also been determined that Paladin level has a direct correlation to the effectiveness of the on-hit Dispel (though what formula is used is anybody's guess). In other word's, not all Holy Weapons are created equal.
But with no charisma, no Smiting or Divine feats, I'm not sure why you took Paladin at all, unless it was to buff, and in which case, why not take a Cleric and get better buffs?
Well, I can't really speak for the author, but I built a similar build (using ShadowDancer because I mistakenly thought that Rogues couldn't be Lawful Good).
The basic premise behind using Paladin instead of Cleric, is that to get full benefits of Divine Favor and Greater Magic Weapon, you need 15 caster levels. If you use a Cleric, you would *need* to pump your Wisdom to at least 18, as you would have access to 8th levels spells. By using Paladin, you can leave your Wisdom at 14 and put the additional points into Strength for additional AB and damage.
Of course with the loss of Darkfire, the additional benefits gained from the extra Strength are debatable.
Edited By dmuzzy on 04/25/06 17:02
You lose darkfire but you can use the scroll or flame weapon, if either is available.
The other thing (beyond simple base AB) is the choice of your weapon. The cleric would either have to use a feat OR take a rogue level pre-epic, losing another AB. For PvM or just playability, that is probably ok. But for the real fun, fighting at 40, hard to swallow.
I think the answer is above, though: Paladin 18 Weaponmaster 19 (where you get the holy triumvirate of epic feats (EWF, AS, and EP) and Rogue 3. Costs you 1 AB and one mostly useless (not entirely useless) feat.
Thanks for the feedback. And now there's one posted.
Kail - Please change the Level 40 feat to Epic Toughness (which is sad, because it is half as good as regular Toughness). Thanks.
Done and updated the HPs total too - Kail
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 04/25/06 21:40
Here is the alternate leveling guide (Rogue 3/WM 19/Paladin 18):
Your saves remain the same as do your skill points. You can now allocate to Taunt if you prefer instead of say. . . spellcraft?
One further point regarding taking paladin over cleric. If you get any charisma buffing equipment, the calculus changes. If you get +6 ability gear (+12 to the ability), all of your saves go up by five.
Good hunting.
Edited By Ithacan on 04/25/06 20:21
I'm still just not seeing the point of Paladin unless you're going to pump Charisma. Cleric gives you a lot more buffs than just AB and damage, and unless you have Charisma it tends to be worth more than paladin. _________________ CATS!
Quote: Posted 04/25/06 20:45:38 (GMT) -- avarielo
I'm still just not seeing the point of Paladin unless you're going to pump Charisma. Cleric gives you a lot more buffs than just AB and damage, and unless you have Charisma it tends to be worth more than paladin.
I'll give you a few pointers. Higher AB unbuffed. Power to buff to +13 on his own, plus any ability stats. A cleric can buff to up to +20 in some cases, but counting lower BAB and heavier investment into WIS which costs you more AB and damage even. Then a Pally get Taunt and the odds are changing here. Now start counting the dispel-on-hit and the cleric swiftly starts to hang dangerously far behind. Take into the account your greater crit range OR multiplier from a martial weapon and darn.
You will find arguments for going cleric instead, mainly healing, but don't say PAL isn't a good choice with the strong-points I made above. I have played a few both Clerics and Pally's, and the pally is the hardest hitter, and he is done with his short-term buffs in a round or two, all depending on his equipment.
Pally isn't useless here, it's not like cleric totally outshines it and makes it worthless in this combo. No way. _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG
- Kail