This will be more or less immune to Dev Crit with the high fortitude saves, more or less immune to area-affect spells with the high reflex save, more or less immune to mind-affecting spells with the high will save. Effective against HIPSters with the High Listen Skill and Elf active modal detect. Effective against Melee with the High AC and Epic Taunt Skill (DC of 52 against Concentration skill check). It's high enough such that even a caster may have a problem resisting the Taunt. Heaven help you if he knocks you down with the sneaks (7d6) and the Crippling Strike. Being knocked down and disarmed are his weaknesses, countered only with his high AC (no discipline as I couldn't get it anywhere near his AC). So first strike will be important, as always. UMD enables use of invisibility scrolls for that purpose. Uncanny dodge means he'll keep his AC in mobs or flatfooted. Which is nice.
Any, here is the latest in the Avenging Commando series. Check the ears, heh.
Rogue 13/CoT 10/Paladin 17 (Dex Version)
Elf, Lawful Good Playable 1-40 PvE
S: 8 D: 16 to 32 C: 12 W: 14 I: 14 CH: 14
1 Pal 1 Feat: WFinesse 2 Pal 2 3 Pal 3 Feat: WF Rapier 4 Pal 4 Ability: DEX (17) 5 Pal 5 6 Pal 6 Feat: Knockdown 7 Pal 7 8 Pal 8 DEX (18) 9 Pal 9 Feat: ImpCrit 10 Pal 10 11 Pal 11 12 Pal 12; Feat: Extend Spell; DEX (19) 13 Pal 13 14 Pal 14 15 Pal 15 Feat: Blind Fight 16 CoT 1 DEX (20) 17 CoT2 CoT Feat: Feat: Power Attack 18 Pal 16 Feat: Divine Shield [Taunt to 20] 19 CoT 3 20 CoT 4 CoT IKD; DEX (21) 21 CoT 5 Feat: Great Dexterity I (22) 22 Rogue 1 23 CoT 6 CoT Feat: EWF 24 Rogue 2 Feat: Great Dexterity II (23); DEX (24) 25 Rogue 3 26 Rogue 4 27 Rogue 5 Feat:Great Dexterity III (25) 28 Rogue 6 DEX (26) 29 Rogue 7 30 Rogue 8 Feat: Great Dexterity IV (27) 31 Rogue 9 32 Rogue 10 DEX (28); RFeat: Crippling Strike 33 Rogue 11 Feat:ESF: Taunt 34 CoT 7 35 CoT 8 CoT Feat: Armor Skin 36;CoT 9 Feat: Gr Dexterity V (29); DEX (30) 37 Rogue 12 38 Pal 17 39 Rogue 13 RFeat: ESF: Listen; Feat: Great Dexterity VI 31; 40 CoT 10 CoT Feat: Epic Prowess; DEX (32)
AB: 30 base + 11 dex + 3 EWF + 1 EP = 45 + 6 (Dex Equipment) = 51 +5 GMW = 56 + 5 Divine Favor = 61 + 1 Aid + 1 Bless = 63 + 3 Divine Wrath = 66 Damage: 1d6 -1 (15-20 crit x2); 7d6 sneak attack AC: 10 base + 11 dex + 2 armor skin + 8 tumble + 3 shield = 34 + 5 equipment: 59 + 6 dex equipment = 65 + 4 Haste = 69 Divine Shield (w/Cha equip): 77 HP: 348 max Fort base/spcraft: 32/36 (equipped: + 16 rings and con buff + 6 cha buff = 54) Dex base/spcraft:34/38 (equipped: + 16 rings and dex buff + 6 cha buff = 56) Will base/spcraft:28/32 (equipped: + 16 rings and wis buff + 6 cha buff = 50)
You lose your ESF Listen and Taunt, and Crippling Strike . You just got a little harder to hit. Build to taste. _________________ We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender - Winston Churchill
Here, again, we have issues dealing with dex-based characters. This is by no means to rip on you, Ithacan, as you've been established here for quite some time, and I give you the utmost respect. However, I think the Dwarflord is going to have to host a clinic.
Now, if this is meant to be a level 40 PvP build, have at it. As it stands, its from 1-40, so I must treat it as such.
First, Dex-based, but no Uncanny Dodge until Level25. Since you have an 8 strength, I have to assume that you aren't really wearing Full Plate and Towershield. Therefore, for the most precious portion of this character's career, he's a sitting duck. Sure, he has Divine Shield, but it's not like he's turning any heads with that 14 Charisma, and at the end of the day Divine Shield is still Dodge AC. This means, when you are losing all that Dex AC when Flatfooted, you're also losing all your Dodge AC. And that's if it's even on since the duration is so limited. The 12 Con isn't doing him any favors, but I suppose its the best you could afford in the circumstances.
Am I correct in seeing that DS is taken at Lvl18? That makes the above paragraph even more significant, as I'm not sure how he is to survive those tough combat encounters.
Further, the 8 strength insures that he's not going to hurt anybody, and one could almost make the argument that Divine Might is more important than Shield in those early levels.
Also, Dex-based, but no HiPS, no Epic Dodge, no Self Concealment? Your list of allies grows thin. You acquire 13 lvls of Rogue, yet no ED? You have to ask yourself this: (i)What would you rather have? Crippling Strike and ESF: Listen, or Improved Evasion, Defensive Roll, and Epic Dodge?
At this point, why not just go strength-based? It would solve 2 of your biggest problems: damage output and not having to worry about UD. The other option, of course, is to Chr-based.
I guess I'm also trying to figure out why you wait until Lvl 22 to take your first Rogue level. Is it to avoid the xp penalty for as long as possible, or to max your BAB? If it's the former, I would eat the penalty, and if it's the latter, I would slap in 4 Rogue pre-epic and still eat the penalty. Just for evasion, UD and UMD alone is worth the penalty, not to mention the other skills and some possible sneak damage.
My conclusion: if you're going Dex-based, get UD and ED as soon as possible. If you can't get that, go Str or Chr based, or a little bit of both. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Here, again, we have issues dealing with dex-based characters. This is by no means to rip on you, Ithacan, as you've been established here for quite some time, and I give you the utmost respect. However, I think the Dwarflord is going to have to host a clinic.
Heh, two things have made me a better builder, the gentle remonstrations of you and certain others on this forum -- much like Baloo clubbing Mowgli -- and the harsh environment in which I play the builds. I never resent the criticism; far from it. It is why I post here. My builds and my building get better. Thank you for that.
Quote: Now, if this is meant to be a level 40 PvP build, have at it. As it stands, its from 1-40, so I must treat it as such.
First, Dex-based, but no Uncanny Dodge until Level25. Since you have an 8 strength, I have to assume that you aren't really wearing Full Plate and Towershield. Therefore, for the most precious portion of this character's career, he's a sitting duck. Sure, he has Divine Shield, but it's not like he's turning any heads with that 14 Charisma, and at the end of the day Divine Shield is still Dodge AC. This means, when you are losing all that Dex AC when Flatfooted, you're also losing all your Dodge AC. And that's if it's even on since the duration is so limited. The 12 Con isn't doing him any favors, but I suppose its the best you could afford in the circumstances.
Am I correct in seeing that DS is taken at Lvl18? That makes the above paragraph even more significant, as I'm not sure how he is to survive those tough combat encounters.
Further, the 8 strength insures that he's not going to hurt anybody, and one could almost make the argument that Divine Might is more important than Shield in those early levels.
Would you believe Playable 25-40? I am so biased now towards the level 40 build. I think it'd be playable, but probably not as much fun til level 25.
Quote: Also, Dex-based, but no HiPS, no Epic Dodge, no Self Concealment? Your list of allies grows thin. You acquire 13 lvls of Rogue, yet no ED? You have to ask yourself this: (i)What would you rather have? Crippling Strike and ESF: Listen, or Improved Evasion, Defensive Roll, and Epic Dodge?
At least this one I anticipated, heh, in my second post. And you left off Epic Taunt. Improved Evasion is of little use with this build because it's Reflex save is so high. And Defensive Roll is a prerequisite feat, of little use imho. ESF Listen and ESF Taunt are really useful, as is Crippling Strike. But Epic Dodge is stout and may be worth the exchange.
Quote: At this point, why not just go strength-based? It would solve 2 of your biggest problems: damage output and not having to worry about UD. The other option, of course, is to Chr-based.
Here is the strength-based version.
Click Here
The dex-based version gets 1 higher AB and 8 higher AC (that's significant) and gives up 1 fortitude. But still has a dominating fortitude.
Quote: I guess I'm also trying to figure out why you wait until Lvl 22 to take your first Rogue level. Is it to avoid the xp penalty for as long as possible, or to max your BAB? If it's the former, I would eat the penalty, and if it's the latter, I would slap in 4 Rogue pre-epic and still eat the penalty. Just for evasion, UD and UMD alone is worth the penalty, not to mention the other skills and some possible sneak damage.
Your suggested fix - taking rogue levels pre-epic - would also hurt the fortitude saves as well as the base AB. It can be done but I wouldn't do it or recommend it IF you are building to try and dominate in a level 40 PvP environment. IF you are leveling this on a Role-Player or the OC (or anything like the OC), take Rogue at levels 1 and 7, replacing paladin levels pre-epic.
Quote: My conclusion: if you're going Dex-based, get UD and ED as soon as possible. If you can't get that, go Str or Chr based, or a little bit of both.
You're critique is spot on for a Playable 1-40 build. I don't think this is a straight level 40 build but the pre-epic years will be hard ones, it is true.
Thanks very much for the trip to the learning tree, O' Grizzled Lord of the Dwarves.
Cheers,
Ithacan
One (hopefully) final tweak, to the skills. With the saves so high and UMD for scroll use, I think you can forgo any spellcraft, given that it comes 2/1, and max out Spot to really make the most of your elf modal detect. So:
Obviously, that can be debated. But Spot comes 1 for 1, Spellcraft comes 2 for 1, and your saves with this build are really high. And spot can be useful on a PW that hides boss items behind trap doors and such.
Cheers.
Quote: Posted 05/02/06 13:30:58 (GMT) -- Ithacan And spot can be useful on a PW that hides boss items behind trap doors and such.
Cheers.
Nope, but a good search score can. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Quote: Posted 05/02/06 13:30:58 (GMT) -- Ithacan And spot can be useful on a PW that hides boss items behind trap doors and such.
Cheers.
Nope, but a good search score can.
Hmmmm, you think search over spot? I am pretty sure the hidden doors on my PW are on a spot check but that may be just the way they chose to balance a PvP server (because who on earth is putting anything into search?).
I'm starting to get a little confused here, I think I'm repeating stuff said on another of your builds.
As I said on the STR version, 14 CHA is just low with Divine Shield/Might/Wrath (+5 on Divine Wrath this time, not +3 as you wrote), give it a little more CHA me says.
Divine Wrath's power is +3 at level 5, and +2 every 5 levels after that.
Just 1 Rogue level doesn't makes it playable all of a sudden, at level 25...well, some enemies will have DR already by level 25, I'd say his damage is playable from level 31...
I will say it's good at level 40, do not infer my message.
I have tweaked the pre-epic level guide:
From:
13 Pal 13 14 Pal 14 15 CoT 1 Feat: Blind Fight 16 CoT 2 DEX (20) CoT Feat: Feat: Power Attack 17 Pal 15 18 Pal 16 Feat: Divine Shield [Taunt to 20] 19 CoT 3 20 CoT 4 CoT IKD; DEX (21)
to
13 Pal 13 14 Pal 14 15 Pal 15 Feat: Blind Fight 16 CoT 1 DEX (20) 17 CoT2 CoT Feat: Feat: Power Attack 18 Pal 16 Feat: Divine Shield [Taunt to 20] 19 CoT 3 20 CoT 4 CoT IKD; DEX (21)
This gives you GMW +5 earlier, +5 to Divine Favor earlier and lose out on Power Attack for a level, which is no big deal.
. You just got a little harder to hit. Build to taste.