The purpose of this build was to make an Epic Dodging sneaker with a useable epic summons to tank for him. Obvious base class is Rogue, with either Blackguard or Shadowdancer for the summons. I wound up going with blackguard because it continues to gain Sneak Damage and other niceties without some of the overlap that come with SD and a high level rogue. If there were enough feats, I may have taken a single level of SD for HiPS, but I don't think it really needs it, and I wouldn't like the flavor, anyway .
However, aside from choice of base class, I think there are several things unique to this build that the others don't have (as well as things unique to the others that this one doesn't have, of course).
Starting/ Ending: Str 13 Dex 17 Con 10 Wis 8 Int 14 Cha 14
Max HP: 340 Average HP (no rerolls): 260 AC (naked): 32 AB: +42/ +42/ +37/ +37/ +32/ +27
Saves: Fort 23 Ref 35 Will 18
Advantages: 17d6 Sneak Attack Damage 6 attacks per round unhasted (pick up haste and you have 3 attacks in your first flurry) Epic Dodge Epic Vrock Good AB that is further enhanced (effectively) by Taunt Skill Loads of Style Points
Disadvantages: Low Fort and Will saves (can be improved with CHA boosting gear) Low HP Low damage potential against sneak immune creatures
Tactics and Variations Originally, I was trying to build something with high Sneak Attack damage, an Epic Summons, and a Death Attack DC of at least 30 (something for the arcane casters and other rogues to worry about, but few others). I accomplished what I set out to do, but the lack of Epic Dodge with all that Dex really bothered me, not to mention that I found this version to have a higher AB, a better summons, more skill points, and only one less d6 of sneak damage. All in all, this one wins out in several respects, though the loss of 50% concealment from Improved Invisibility on the Assassin spell list hurts a little bit.
When I was testing this build, and I first saw the stats of my Epic Vrock, I thought, oh no, this won't possibly work as well as I hoped it would (as far as I can tell, the Epic Vrock basically levels up as a Fighter = your Blackguard levels - 4, with a few extra bonuses thrown on top). However, I was very satisfied with the functionality. Even though the Vrock won't be doing much damage, and he can be hit fairly easily, his DR really helps him last long enough for you to bring your Sneak Attack damage to the enemy (102d6 per round). There aren't too many foes that can stand up to that for too long.
The halfling penalty to strength was a slight issue, considering that you need a minimum 13 STR to qualify for Blackguard. Since STR isn't the primary damage source, I chose Halfling for purposes of personal preference, but if you are so inclined an Elf can have a 14 STR and otherwise identical starting stats.
It's also possible to have Epic Dodge three levels sooner by sacrificing +1 to saves (by starting with a CHA of 12). However, there is also a leveling rearrangement required that puts skill dumps a wee bit further apart in late epics, which is why I designed it this way.
I'm working on a story, but I'm a slow writer and I'm busy with several things, so it may take a while.
Comments appreciated.
Enjoy!
Corrected a typo - Kail Pendragon _________________ There's always time to procrastinate.
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 05/02/06 02:02
Quote: Death Attack doesn't become useful until late epics
Oops. This is a remnant of the first version, which used Assassin. Should be ignored. Sorry about that.
Also, in case it was unclear before, I couldn't find any blackguards with an Epic Vrock who meet the pre-reqs for Epic Dodge using the Rogue class. _________________ There's always time to procrastinate.
Edited By koolthursday on 05/02/06 01:23
Nice goings, Kool, seems very interesting, quite a rogue-knight or something like that.
Not much to say for tweaking the build. Some may think it wise to take a third class, but I'm not so sure. The epic Vrock is an okay Summon and should last, as you say, long enough to connect your deadly attacks.
Kudos to you, chilled midweek. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
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Why dont you pick up divine might and shield for some extra ac and dmg , if you can get some items that boost cha you can get 8 divine dmg , and with 6attacks /rnd its will help vs sneak immune opponents.
... wasnt there an issue about rogue and bg sneaks not stacking ?
Being DEX based, since you won't be using heavy armor, and you already dual-wield, you could very well give it a Monk level.
-1 BAB and -1d6 sneak attack, but you gain a lot of APR and better AB progression (or however it is called the fact that monk AB goes down by 3 instead of 5), automatic Cleave is good for Blackguard requirements and frees a feat there.
I remember an issue about Improved Sneak attack not stacking with Death Attack, a little bit off though. I don't know about BG and Rogue sneak attacks not stacking.
Being DEX based, since you won't be using heavy armor, and you already dual-wield, you could very well give it a Monk level.
-1 BAB and -1d6 sneak attack, but you gain a lot of APR and better AB progression (or however it is called the fact that monk AB goes down by 3 instead of 5), automatic Cleave is good for Blackguard requirements and frees a feat there.
I remember an issue about Improved Sneak attack not stacking with Death Attack, a little bit off though. I don't know about BG and Rogue sneak attacks not stacking.
Using a monk level isn't a bad idea. It frees up two feats, actually (don't need to take Power Attack, either, if I understand things correctly). If you do go the monk route, I would start with a STR of 6 and a Wis of 14, which hurts damage potential a bit, and carrying capacity a lot, but gains you a +2 to AC and +3 to will saves. You also lose one AB, but what you have is still respectable, and now you would be on the better attack progression. Oh, and noone wants to share a room with you because you reek of cheese .
To be honest, I didn't even think of taking monk because I don't envision any of my characters as being lawful , so a lot of times it doesn't even occur to me.
The sneak attack/ death attack bug is that if you have a death attack (from Assassin), but no sneak attacks from class levels (Rogue or Blackguard), then the Improved Sneak Attack feat will not stack, even though you are allowed to take it. Rogue, Blackguard, and Assassin sneak attack/ death attack d6s all stack without a problem, iirc. _________________ There's always time to procrastinate.
Why dont you pick up divine might and shield for some extra ac and dmg , if you can get some items that boost cha you can get 8 divine dmg , and with 6attacks /rnd its will help vs sneak immune opponents.
Three reasons: (1) feat starvation, (2) I don't want to rely on Charisma boosting gear, and (3), I don't want to rely on short term buffs. The biggest factor is number (1), though. Even if you go the monk route, and gain those two extra feats, it still won't work because you no longer meet the Str prerequisites (and you would still have to take Power Attack). _________________ There's always time to procrastinate.
This looks good to me. I think the little guy would fare quite nicely in my environment (if anyone fares nicely at all). _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Mmm blackguards.
Mmm Halflings of Dooooooom.
Great concept. BG and rogue sneak attacks do, indeed, stack (and in this build stack very nicely). The epic vrock is one of the better summons, but summons in general tend to be underpowered. You'll probably want to UMD scrolls of things like improved invisibility and greater stoneskin onto him for a tough fight.
You could also vary this build to use a sling for ranged sneak attacks - halflings get a +1 AB bonus when using thrown weapons or slings. Two of the dual wielding feats would have to be replaced with pointblank shot and rapid shot, but one would get freed. The bully throwing rocks! _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
could you (or one of the elite builders) please post this build with that 1 incorporated monk lvl option? I also like the idea of that sling as a ranged weapon; you can quick slot that sling with a small shield/buckler for the AC boost. _________________ Regards, Chip
I'd probably do something along these lines for a Monk-Sling user. It stops short of Monk 6, which is rather unusual, but Improved Knockdown is less valuable for a ranged attacker, and dropping a rogue level is not an option without losing epic dodge, so it comes down to a blackguard bonus feat & sneak die vs. 10% extra movement.
Other level splits I might consider are Rogue 16/ Monk 2/ Blackguard 22 or Rogue 13/ Monk 2/ Blackguard 25.
Also, I didn't check it in a leveler, so there may be mistakes, but I think this is accurate.
Skills (278 total): Hide: 43 Listen: 43 Move Silently: 43 Taunt: 42 Tumble: 40 UMD: 23 (25) 44 left over for rogue skills
Max HP: 418 AC (naked): 32 AB (w/ mundane sling): +44/ +39/ +34/ +29 AB (w/ Rapid Shot): +42/ +37/ +32/ +27/ +42
Saves: Fort 26 Ref 36 Will 21 14d6 Sneak Attack _________________ (I enjoy writing parenthetically (a lot)).
WOW! I am more impressed with your timely response! =)
thank you thank you!
ahh.... i see. but I thought the advice given was just for 1 lvl of monk for the Cleave feat. I didn't expect that you would use that many lvls of Monk. Do you mind to go into a few more detailed reasons why?
After looking over your original build a bit more, I was thinking of just tossing that one lvl of monk in at char lvl 2 and be done with it, and then start taking the BG lvls asap (at around char lvl 8, I think). Even with the synegy broken I'd still much rather have that extra BG AB than those 4 extra monk lvls. Iguess that's why I'd like ya to explain, if you don't mind. _________________ Regards, Chip
Edited By chipelp3 on 10/11/06 17:24
Monk's giving a speed boost (at Monk level 3) and +1 AC from 5 Monk levels. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Also, extra Monk allows for tumble dumps while still getting Epic Dodge at level 27. Rogue can be used instead (for a final split of Rogue 16/ Monk 2/ Blackguard 22) or in a straight level 40 build you can delay Rogue 13 until level 39 (finishing at Rogue 13/ Monk 2/ Blackguard 25).
With those three classes, you can't get any higher of a BAB, because you can only take 10 levels of Blackguard pre-epic. Taking fewer than 2 levels of monk will actually get you a lower AB, because Rogue 9 doesn't come with any boost to AB. _________________ (I enjoy writing parenthetically (a lot)).
Sweet! thanks guys! Ima gonna use the 5 monk then! =) _________________ Regards, Chip
Well done, Kool. A killer-dark halfling and now with the monk boosts/speed -- SWEET!!!
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, so a lot of times it doesn't even occur to me.
Also, extra Monk allows for tumble dumps while still getting Epic Dodge at level 27. Rogue can be used instead (for a final split of Rogue 16/ Monk 2/ Blackguard 22) or in a straight level 40 build you can delay Rogue 13 until level 39 (finishing at Rogue 13/ Monk 2/ Blackguard 25).