-High AB. This build has a 46 AB with a mundane weapon. -10D6 Sneak Attack combined with Improved Knockdown (good results with this AB), which in turn create plenty of opportunities for sneak attacks. -Crippling Strike - an extra bonus when successfully delivering Sneak Attacks -Weapon Specialization and Epic Weapon Specialization - grant an additional 6 points of damage per hit, which is handy when critical and sneak hits are out of the question. -Reasonable AC - which can be improved from using expertise -Improved Evasion -High UMD. He can cast spells from scrolls and wands. -Can set/ retrieve all traps including Epic -High Open Lock, Search scores and reasonable Discipline as well.
Disadvantages
-Low saves generally, in particular Will. Some preparation is definitely required for dealing with this weakness.
This whole idea stemmed from trying to improve on a previous incarnation of a Fighter/ WM/ Monk that I had once upon a time, although never posted here.
The idea in its infancy was to try to design a tournament duellist, such as you may find in the higher echelon's of society. Hence, the attention was to Attack and Damage dealt as opposed to protection against magic and the selection of Rapier (this could be changed for Scimitar, etc.)
I would delay the Great Con a bit, so you can take EWF at level 21 and EWS at 24. Then take Great Con after that sometime. I would also consider dropping Con to 15, skipping the Great Con, and putting 2 points into Wis or Cha (Wis gets you +1 to the low Will save, Cha gets you +1 to UMD). That also frees up another epic feat.
You can also save a few skillpoints: Spellcraft uses modified ranks, so you can drop it by 2 (saving 4 skillpoints), Epic Traps only need a 58 to disarm, with take 20 out of combat you only need 38 (saving 9), Epic Traps only need a 43 to detect, so a 42 is enough to guarantee detection (saving at least 3, although you could drop a bit lower and still detect pretty efficiently). Epic traps also only need a 65 to set, so you can drop your set skill by 2, although you could even drop it by 22 and be able to set all deadly traps (but not Epic).
I would consider spending some of those on Hide and Move Silently. He won't have super stealth skills, but with his sneak damage it might be useful to occasionally be able to sneak up on an enemy.
I think you switched the feats at levels 38 and 39 - ISA is a rogue feat, and Armor Skin is a WM feat. Also, since almost all of the Rogue skills will have reached their max before level 40, you could take the WM level last to get 1 more into discipline if you want (unless you take Move Silent and Hide, those you would want to max as a rogue).
TM
Other than the bonus to criticals, what is the utility of having Weapon Master at all, let alone 19 levels? I'm not that well-versed on WM, but it seems to me that the required feats could be better utilized, not to mention the fact that other classes would work quite well with the F/R combination.
As for the build itself, it seems that you have achieved what you set out to. And good god, the skillpoints!
Thanks TM.
The Great Con was taken early purely to round up that stat figure to give you the extra +1 to Fort Save and Hitpoint increment. This can be delayed until later as you say.
I had considered 2 points into WIS instead and the idea does have merit, particularly when you could then substitute Great Constitution for Epic Will, giving you +5 to your Will save instead. However you lose 1 point from Fort and 40 HP, particularly as you can not fit Toughness into the build currently. Some thought needed here methinks.
Nice points on the skills and will take them on board.
Hide and Move Silently I am not sold on, as this chap is set to wear heavy armor and his Dex bonus is not high enough to compensate, for my tastes at least. Not to mention the penalty to both Hide and MS in armor.
Good Catch with 38 and 39, I had meant to sort that. I will when I revise this.
BradpieceNHS, the main purpose of the WM is as you say for the improvement with criticals, but it also gains a higher AB every 3 WM levels from 13th onwards, helping this to reach a 46AB with a mundane rapier, as well as a base of 10hp pre-CON adjustment each level.
You are quite right that Fighter/Rogue could work well with other combos, but WM was a pre-req for me when designing this due to the concept involved. To be honest you could increase the quantity of WM levels by 3 and reduce Rogue by 3 levels, but this is highly debatable in terms of the deficiencies that the build would suffer.
Other than the bonus to criticals, what is the utility of having Weapon Master at all, let alone 19 levels? I'm not that well-versed on WM, but it seems to me that the required feats could be better utilized, not to mention the fact that other classes would work quite well with the F/R combination.
As for the build itself, it seems that you have achieved what you set out to. And good god, the skillpoints!
Lately I have seen more than one comment on the "uselessness" of more than 7 WM lvls by new posters. I actually am among those that question how good it is to go for only 7 lvls instead, considering the heavy feat investment required. I consider 19 WM lvls almost a minimum for my builds. The AB boni and bonus feats every 3 lvls after 10, one more ki damage a day for every lvl and the possibility to take a second WoC as a WM bonus feat in epic lvls more than justify a heavy investment in the class for melee builds.
I...Samphus, nice build! You've got a similar lvl split to my Stealthy Blade of Doom, especially the version with FTR 4 and WS/EWS. My build is a dexer though so the comparison ends there. I'd personally take a ESF as the last rogue bonus feat instead of ISA. Slippery mind also might be of use but I'm not sure it's worth it. As you pointed out 3 more WM lvls is a possibility and an attractive one to me too, but my love for WMs make me biased.
Cheers, Kail _________________ To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives They fought for you and me Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
One note on Disable Traps: if you want to recover them, that adds +10 to the DC, so you need a modified 48 ranks in it to recover Epic traps. Keeping your skill maxed for a modified 47 means you only need a potion or scroll of Fox's Cunning or an item that boosts INT by 2 to guarantee you can recover all Epic traps. (I might be tempted to drop ISA and take Epic Skill Focus:Disable instead. Then you can drop your investment to 38 ranks in Disable and you'll still be able to recover Epic traps as well, and also have freed up skill points for use elsewhere).
Cool build. I like Rogues, and the Rogue/FTR/WM combo is pretty fun. _________________ Where I'm playing now: World of Greyhawk.
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 05/04/06 17:17
Nice build there, Samphus, you avoid the problem of getting WFinesse so late by going STR. Good STR-based rogues sure is fun, and this is a warrior through andthrough. But so much more.
As for Kail's comments on WM, I too feel taking that heavy feat-investment WM should be taken far beyond lvl7. AT LEAST 16, preferrably 19 or more.
Smooth. Grimnir _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG
OK then, thanks to all for the feedback and kind words. I have made some changes based on your suggestions, which have given some improvements overall:
Starting Stats remain the same, but the Epic Feat selection has altered.
2x Great Strengths have been dropped and the ISA, which have allowed Epic Will, Epic Skill Focus: Discipline and Toughness to be taken.
Skills have been adjusted in line with the recommendations, giving an extra 5 crossclassed ranks in Spellcraft and +1 to saves versus spells.
Losses -1AB and -1pt damage output, -1d6 sneak attack, which is acceptable I feel.
Overall you have a further 40 HP, +4 to Will Save and +10 to Discipline
Skills are now:
Disable Trap 43(47) Discipline 42(61) Intimidate 4(3) Open Lock 43(45) Search 40(42) Set Trap 39(43) Spellcraft 18(20) Tumble 40(42) UMD 41(40) Leaving a further 7 points spare
As Grim and Kail have pointed out, if you are going to bother with WM, then you need to take plenty of levels to make it worth while generally; 7 is a waste really, considering the feat investment.
Without taking more Fighter levels, there really is no way to get both Toughness and Weapon Spec pre-epic. And the only other feat I really, really wanted was Called Shot.
Thanks to all.
I have to agree with previous posters - the payoff for investing all those feats in becoming a weaponmaster is getting major AB bonuses and a good epic bonus feat progression.
The only persuasive arugments I find in favor of taking 7 and only 7 levels of WM are gimmick builds, like builds designed around generating critical smites.
I like the character... I'd actually go ahead and take slippery mind instead of ESF discipline for PvE, but for PvP the discipline feat is probably a better choice. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Why go with 14 Dex? If you started out with 14 Con and 13 Dex, you could start with Str 17, which frees up yet another epic feat.
Overall, very good build. _________________ CATS!
I started with DEX 14 & CON 15 for a number of reasons:
+1 Base Reflex save +1 Natural AC (naked that is) Potential (at 24th for a further 40HP and +1 Base Fort Save)
all this set against the benefit of 1 point to STR, which leaves it on an odd number, thereby missing out on any improvement to STR modifier.
Sure I could take Great Strength at 24th instead, which gives me +1 AB, +1 base damage output, but that's it. His natural melee AB is already at 46, which is quite respectable anyway. He needs the hitpoints and saves more.
Xylo, as far as the ESF: Discipline goes, it was mainly to fit the design... Court Duellist.
Slippery Mind may be useful in PvM though.
I'm a lover of the will save, because in the environments I frequent there are high numbers of enemies who have fear auras and there are few or no immunity items. That's one of the reasons why I like the 20th monk level as well. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Never liked the rapier though... I've always thought that when taking WM the most powerful weapon is a must, and I always think a scythe or a double axe taking the most advantage of the critical score, the rapier gets a ridiculous threat range.
Aside from that, I like the build, I've made WMs and could agree with both low and high levels, if you don't have too many feats to spare take as much WM as you can for AB, but if you have a lot of feats, or some other class could benefit more, level 7 is fine, say, Fighter/Cleric/WM can take a very good advantage of WM 7 and then level Cleric since the buffs could be actually better than the WM levels, since attaining critical for buffs such as Divine Might/Favor or Darkfire could make a WM 7 the best investment, but do as you like, WM 19 works neatly in this build.
Darkfire is not multiplied on criticals, Thax. _________________
Quote: Posted 04/26/06 12:05:52 (GMT) -- Ithacan
[...]Harper Scout, the only class so powerful it's capped at five. [...]
Great build. With reguards to the reworked epic progression. Would it not make the build more survivable if you took Con as your level four stat increase and great STR 1 at lvl 24?
Increased hit points and +1 fort save lvls 4 to 24 for only a modest slowdown to ab and damage progression seems like a good idea. _________________ When you think about it, is the memory of a real event, any more 'real' than the memory of a fictional event?
Hmm.. just looked at that and yes it would help.
AB drops by 1 point until 24th, with the benefit of HP and +1 to Fort, so not a bad trade, particularly with the lower HP from Rogue levels.
You won't notice the lack of AB progression until 8th level mind you, as base STR at 4th is 17, but anyway.
Nice suggestion Kalisman.
"You won't notice the lack of AB progression until 8th level mind you, as base STR at 4th is 17, but anyway."
It's not really that bad. -1 ab and damage for levels 8-11 and 16-19. You would catch back up at lvl 12 and again at 20. _________________ When you think about it, is the memory of a real event, any more 'real' than the memory of a fictional event?
To clarify what I meant with that change:
Levels 1 to 7 - no effect on AB Levels 8 to 23 - AB -1 Levels 24 onwards - no effective difference to AB
This is a very nice build, well done. I can't really think of much that would improve this build. I would have gone for an Axe or Warhammer instead of a Rapier. I get this weird mental image of Conan with a fencing foil when I see strength builds with rapiers. If you read the old icelandic sagas, they used to fight duels with axes and shields, so an axe would fit with the build concept. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
Edited By Mithdradates on 05/18/06 10:48
Thanks for the comments Mith.
For anyone wanting to take this build on the weapon choice is quite open to your own preference, having both Simple and Martial proficiencies; and not being limited by Finesse.
I have to agree with previous posters - the payoff for investing all those feats in becoming a weaponmaster is getting major AB bonuses and a good epic bonus feat progression.