Here we have the the seconnd build that Kail and i composed togheter,build that gets both construct and outsider's shape, so you can decide to use slaad or golem form according to the situation:
Added Death Slaad and Iron Golem stats - Kail Pendragon
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 05/18/06 13:10
Quote: Posted 05/18/06 09:06:19 (GMT) -- Imp_lord
Here we have the the seconnd build that Kali and i composed togheter,build that gets both construct and outsider's shape, so you can decide to use slaad or golem form according to the situation:
It looks interesting, but could you post the stats in slaad and golem form for analysis purposes. I'm not really a shifter fan, but I'm working on a build with that class because it is one of the only two classes I've never used, hence I've been reading up on them and looking at different builds.
Since you aren't taking dragon shape, which you could take, why gimp your stats so badly? You could drop your WIS to 16 and raise DEX to 14 and CON to 14. This would let you use some of earlier shifted forms which don't overide DEX (e.g. minotaur) to greater effect and make you more effective unshifted. Since you have level 9 spells, with pretty good DCs I might add, you might want to do some unshifted combat.
Why take expertise? The Slaad and Golem Forms tend to be melee forms and, as I recall, have pretty good resistances. Why not move toughness down and take a ranged weapon focus for another AB while unshifed or grab another metamagic feat.
I thought you needed to be an epic shifter (level 11) to take Outsider shape.
With your current set up, I don't think it would be difficult to drop great wisdoms and take undead shape and dragon shape. You would have to take the 13th shifter level at level 40 to get dragon shape. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
I thought you needed to be an epic shifter (level 11) to take Outsider shape.
For some reason you meet the epic shifter requirement when you become shifter 10.
I agree, please post your shifted stats, and perhaps some strategies you utilize? _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
It's pretty nice with Rakshasa form, IMO. This build doesn't have a huge caster level for the Ice Storm, though, but nonetheless. _________________
Quote: Posted 04/26/06 12:05:52 (GMT) -- Ithacan
[...]Harper Scout, the only class so powerful it's capped at five. [...]
Having had something to do with the layout of this build I can offer some little insight in some of the choices, wich is to say my perception of the wishes of the OP regarding this build.
The "missing" shapes are missing because the intent was to have a "boxing" build. At first only Outsider Shape, for Death Slaad was taken, but the lowish AB of the form (due to a lack of an enhancement bonus on creature weapons and a modest STR score) not to mention already having to pump up WIS to 25 to qualify for the feat, suggested to go for Construct Shape too, to take advantage of construct immunities and higher STR (= higher AB). Both forms are viable and each has advantages of its own.
Regarding WIS: since it already got pumped and since it influences both AC in all forms and ranged AB and spells DCs while unshifted increasing it some more came natural. Remember the OP's wish was to have a boxing build using these forms only, he didn't care about the other shapes, not even Rakshasa (which he already gets) as far as I can tell. Also consider that by decreasing starting WIS to 16, Outsider shape would get delayed (till 30th lvl I'd say).
About expertise: I suggested it along with Zen Archery to help while unshifted and before getting the epic shapes. It's one of those "optional" feats in my interpretation.
About shifter's "epicity": as Grim pointed out, a shifter, for some mysterious reason, is considered epic at 10th lvl by the engine.
I've got an all shapes druid/shifter/monk soon to be posted. It's an interesting build which is just waiting for me to find some time to write a background story. Compared to this it misses -1 AC, 10% speed, 4 stunning fists a day and IE but it gets all epic shapes. This build would have feat slots to spend on WF to improve unarmed AB, unfortunately they ain't working while shifted.
I'll edit the OP's post to include Death Slaad and Iron Golem stats... and to correct my name which is Kail, not Kali!
Cheers, Kail _________________ To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives They fought for you and me Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
The "missing" shapes are missing because the intent was to have a "boxing" build. At first only Outsider Shape, for Death Slaad was taken, but the lowish AB of the form (due to a lack of an enhancement bonus on creature weapons and a modest STR score) not to mention already having to pump up WIS to 25 to qualify for the feat, suggested to go for Construct Shape too, to take advantage of construct immunities and higher STR (= higher AB). Both forms are viable and each has advantages of its own.
Cool, context changes many things. As I understand it, the reason that the unarmed weapon focus:unarmed and epic weapon focus: unarmed feats don't work is because when you shift you equip creature weapons which you can't focus in. I remember a while back I found that some of the forms in polymorph self didn't equip creature weapons and you could use those feats. Are there any unarmed shifter forms that don't use creature weapons?
Quote: About shifter's "epicity": as Grim pointed out, a shifter, for some mysterious reason, is considered epic at 10th lvl by the engine.
I just did some investigation into this, it turns out that in the 2da the feat pre-req. is greater wildshape 4 (903) as opposed to epic shifter (986). Hence the shifter is not epic at 10, the feats that require epic shifter just have a different pre-requisite.
Quote: I've got an all shapes druid/shifter/monk soon to be posted. It's an interesting build which is just waiting for me to find some time to write a background story. Compared to this it misses -1 AC, 10% speed, 4 stunning fists a day and IE but it gets all epic shapes. This build would have feat slots to spend on WF to improve unarmed AB, unfortunately they ain't working while shifted.
I'm looking forward to it. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
... I just did some investigation into this, it turns out that in the 2da the feat pre-req. is greater wildshape 4 (903) as opposed to epic shifter (986). Hence the shifter is not epic at 10, the feats that require epic shifter just have a different pre-requisite. ...
That explains it all and I'm not surprised real prerequisites are different from what written in the manuals... like it never happened before, yeah
I'm writing the intro story to my build now, I should be able to post it soon
Cheers, Kail _________________ To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives They fought for you and me Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
The golem shape's a lot more powerful, simply by virtue of merging your items and not just your armor. How I wish druid elemental shapes merged items... *pets his Mystic Druid*
It's an interesting build concept but I think even buffed, both shapes are a bit too weak in the AB department, especially as they don't merge weapons. The Slaad's pretty-good AC and regeneration may, however, make for an interesting defensive form - I'd actually consider going all the way to improved expertise for this purpose. And since the golem merges items, you might be able to get an AB bonus from wearing monk gloves for him. Not sure, may test.
Also, not to nitpick, but if you switched monk 10 at 39 with druid 17 at 40, you should be able to pick Dragon Shape at 39 at the cost of 1 wisdom. Then you can consider going back to tinker with your base stats and/or level progression, or otherwise fiddle. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Gloves never merge, BTW. _________________
Quote: Posted 04/26/06 12:05:52 (GMT) -- Ithacan
[...]Harper Scout, the only class so powerful it's capped at five. [...]
Well that's just "the suck" then, I was thinking of making a golem-centric shifter and now I'm a lot less motivated to. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
BTW, the build has got a Stunning Fist DC = 41 (45 self buffed, 47 WIS capped).
I also agree with my fellow posters that getting DS at least would benefit the build and considering dragon fight unarmed it would keep with the "boxing" build flavour. You'd get a nice boost to AB too:
AB (dragon): 49/ 55 self buffed
Getting Disarm/ID might be wise
Remember the build will have +2 AB in wilderness areas, BTW.
Cheers, Kail _________________ To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives They fought for you and me Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
Not true, not true. They do on the server I play on, as do armor, shields, items, and one weapon.
It's almost sickening watching a 112AC/65AB Dragon walking around.
I gotta bring Jormundgandr there _________________ Wait for me Dragon, we'll meet in the sky By fire and magic, I'm sworn Hell is calling, we cannot be denied Fly to the blackness of the Storm
We must die to be reborn!
hehe, well as Kail said the purpose was a boxing build and that he is, and i really can,t se how a Dragon fits the part, he hads claws not hands how would a claw fit a boxing glove hehe, never liked the shifter shapes like, Dragon UD Master you get my point i don,t like the to powerfull shapes. hehe
Whats the maximum amount of attacks per round this build can receive with the monk levels?
7 attacks is the maximum per round for an unarmed monk.
5 normal progression, 1 haste, 1 flurry. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Just to touch on a couple of things that I seem to recall from my experience playing shifters:
1) Golem shape uses Unarmed, which is why you can Stunning Fist with it, and the Unarmed Focus feat will work with it. You could get Dev and go Golem Shape if you wanted to, could be a pretty neat character. I only know this because I made a 55+ DC Stunning Fist Druid/Shifter/Monk. (Was very very cool, too, by the way. I went all wisdom and used Iron Golem's naturally high strength and Druid buffs for AB)
2) I -believe- that Regeneration on Gloves transfers to shapes. Don't quote me 100% on this, but I recall testing it at one point, and I believe it worked. Further, more updated testing might be required for authenticity.
Edited By Acothea on 05/23/06 09:42
I haven't tested Dev Crit specifically with Golem, but the word is that it ain't working with any of the "unarmed" shifted shapes. You can use SF with Dragon Shape too for example, so being able to use it with Golem is no surprise at all.
Cheers, Kail _________________ To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives They fought for you and me Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
i agree totally with KP that it ainīt working.
i hate dragons borring big _________________ When my imps a sleeping im out Hunting Rabbits.
Quote: Posted 05/23/06 09:40:26 (GMT) -- Acothea
Just to touch on a couple of things that I seem to recall from my experience playing shifters:
1) Golem shape uses Unarmed, which is why you can Stunning Fist with it, and the Unarmed Focus feat will work with it. You could get Dev and go Golem Shape if you wanted to, could be a pretty neat character. I only know this because I made a 55+ DC Stunning Fist Druid/Shifter/Monk. (Was very very cool, too, by the way. I went all wisdom and used Iron Golem's naturally high strength and Druid buffs for AB)
WF and EWF do not aid an unarmed shifted form. You can't Dev Crit Unarmed either (when shifted).
Improved Critical and Overwhemling Critical are the ONLY two Unarmed associated Feats that will aid when shifted.
Quote: 2) I -believe- that Regeneration on Gloves transfers to shapes. Don't quote me 100% on this, but I recall testing it at one point, and I believe it worked. Further, more updated testing might be required for authenticity.
Gloves/bracers/mittens do not transfer anything to any shifted form.
Quote: Posted 05/23/06 09:40:26 (GMT) -- Acothea
Just to touch on a couple of things that I seem to recall from my experience playing shifters:
1) Golem shape uses Unarmed, which is why you can Stunning Fist with it, and the Unarmed Focus feat will work with it ...
Uh, missed that statement before. It ain't so, WF/EWF: unarmed do not work in any shifted form as Bromium points out. Let's wait and see whether 1.68 will do anything about it...
Cheers, Kail _________________ To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives They fought for you and me Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
>.< Thanks for clarification. I recall taking those on my Iron Golem form, and I guess for some reason I thought it had done something.
My bad. ^^
That's probably because you checked your AB on the character sheet and the sheet lies. Oh, how much it lies!
Cheers, Kail _________________ To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives They fought for you and me Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
Having had something to do with the layout of this build I can offer some little insight in some of the choices, wich is to say my perception of the wishes of the OP regarding this build.
