RELIABLE: 15 Ranger/ 6 Fighter/ 19 Rogue. Pay attention to the pre-epic levelling - it's optimised to give you the best Fort and overall saves. 21 points put in Spellcraft to give 25 after equipment. Change UMD to whatever amount you wish
Buffing Spells: Camouflage, UV, Prot Elements, Cat's Grace, One with the Land, Aid, Mass Camouflage, Freedom.
Commentary
High Stealth skills.
Search for surviving trappers
High Detect for killing other sneaks
Damage: The fun part. Average sneak damage using a +4 kukri and +12 Str gear is around 60, On a Crit is 85 per hit. Why can this build do so much damage? 12d6 sneak attack means even attacking with your fists you can do 72 damage. EWS kukri = +6 damage, Str bonus = +5 damage, +4 enhancement, so that's +15 on top of the base 1-4 damage of a kukri. So that's 16-19 dmg, multiply by x2 for a crit, add on any massive crits or bonus damage from the weapon, and then slap on 12d6 on top of that for significant carnage.
The sling. This build should use a sling liberally: to finish near death characters, harrass groups and attack non pm characters with damage shields (bards & mages) AB is the same as when dual wielding, 52, and damage averages 55 a hit.
_________________ Stupidity and laziness annoy me. If my tone seems acerbic then examine your post. If you can find no examples of either, then the conclusion should be obvious.
Epic Prowess is lacking, which makes this NOT A HAPPY FUN-TIME BUILD.
Otherwise, nice. I like the ESF: Listen as an anti-stealth touch ... but it won't help against anyone with ESF: Hide/Move Silently.
I'd say, drop either ESF: Listen or ESF: Discipline for Epic Prowess. Drop Dex to 18, pump strength to 10, and Con to 12. Get some hitpoints, same AB, no significant losses. _________________ CATS!
Hmmm, I've always hates pre-epic skill focus, I mean, have you read the description? +3 on skill checks, not such a big deal, those feats are for when you have too much feats and nothing else on what top lay them.
I would take the weapon proficiency, focus and specialization earlier, it should be more playable, and take Toughness instead of skill focus: any of those.
20 DEX at level 1 is a waste, you sure can get use of HP, it's very low, change DEX for CON.
Quote: ...it's optimised to give you the best Fort and overall saves.
wth? how come best Fort with that CON?
It's nice, I just think your skill focus is excessive, you forget a lot of good feats.
I'm with Thax on the skill focus feats pre-epic I'm afraid.
Drop all three on Hide, Move Silent and Listen in favour of Knockdown, Improved Knockdown and Toughness. You then get a spare feat at 39th as well.
I'd also consider taking Fighter 5 and 6 at 22nd/ 23rd to get Epic Wpn Spec a whole lot earlier to improve your base damage output to everything rather than another favored enemy so early in the build.
I have to agree with previous posters for some emphasis...
Drop the non-epic skill feats. Skill focuses and Stealthy. Use them to get useful feats earlier in the build, like IKD. This will make you a lot more playable and will have a very minor impact on your stealthyness.
Your hitpoints are critically low. Most arcane casters will have more hp than you, and you have 21 levels of d10 hit dice. You'll want at least a 12 con, if not a 14 con, and toughness. As it is, if a maxed IGMS doesn't kill you in one shot, a stiff breeze will be enough to finish the job after. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Some more detailed suggestions:
Change starting Stats to: STR 10 DEX 17 CON 14 WIS 14 INT 14 CHA 8 removes the negative modifier on damage output/ increases carrying weight increases your base Will save by 3 points and an extra 120 HP You still qualify for Epic Dodge at 33rd level
Drop both Improved Sneak Attack Feats
Currently you get an xp penalty from 17th-40th level of 20%
I'd change things around a bit to be similar to the above to improve: your melee presence, saves, HP, AB, spellcasting You get your melee ability improved at a much earlier stage both pre-epic and epic
Changing your Levelling order pre-epic to this gives you evenly spaced dumps for maximising Tumble at 7th, 12th, 17th and 22nd levels It maintains your BAB of 19 pre-epic and your saves remain the same by this point You will suffer an extra xp penalty 6th to 8th level, but then you will for most of the life of this build anyway
I have to agree with previous posters for some emphasis....
I have to quote the previous 3 posters for emphasis
I am firmly in the skill focus feat camp and practically all my builds have it in one form or not! It may only be a +3 modifier, however it is still a bonus that you would not otherwise get.
SF: Hide, SF: Move Silently & Stealthy grant a combined +5 to both stealth skills, this effectively means that foes are 20% less likely to see you!
I would however change SF: listen to SF: spot & go Spot based...but I guess this is just a personal preferance!
Edited By krsboss on 06/01/06 07:27
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 07:25:22 (GMT) -- krsboss
I am firmly in the skill focus feat camp and practically all my builds have it in one form or not! It may only be a +3 modifier, however it is still a bonus that you would not otherwise get.
A bonus that doesn't actually do anything significant. +3 to hide, listen and move silently is not worth 40 hp and the king of all feats, improved knockdown.
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 07:25:22 (GMT) -- krsboss
SF: Hide, SF: Move Silently & Stealthy grant a combined +5 to both stealth skills, this effectively means that foes are 20% less likely to see you!
They give you +3 to either skill, which you could only derive a percentile chance from if you knew the opponent's spot/listen checks. _________________ CATS!
Well my reasoning behind the 20% (meant 25% anyway) is that the detector rolls 1d20 + spot/listen skill vs. stealthed hide/ms. The 5 skill point increase translated vs. the 1d20 roll becomes 25% !!!
40 HP & IKD will not matter one bit if the person you are trying to sneak can detect you.
Just a few things: regarding Stealthy, SF: Hide and Move Silently-- drop them. I would only take those in a strength build with heavy rogue levels and enough fighter levels pre-epic to make it worth it. As it stands, you are a dexing Halfling with Ranger spells and abilities. That's all you need. They have built in feats for that sort of thing. Further, it may even be in your best interest to drop the ESFs as well. Since there is no HiPS in the build, there is less of a demand for the "Hide me now!" feature.
Now, when I see a Halfling with a starting Dex of 20, I naturally assume that said Halfling will have Epic Dodge by Level 21, no? And SC IV by Level 33. I think I see ED coming in around 33rd level. If you are taking it so late, why bother with a 20Dex? You're just handicapping yourself. I would move Dex to 18, and begin restructuring the build from there. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
You forget hide in your build, Thax. That aside, he can take all points from Discipline and put into UMD and whatever else he lacks if he drops ESF: Discipline. Because if he does, his discipline check is completely useless anyhow. Discipline for casters and dexers are useless unless you take ESF: discipline. Don't get blinded by the oh so powerful Exalted Sorceress.
It's an okay build at the end, but don't make me level it.
If you start with 18 DEX like many here says, and 10 STR and 12 CON, you might be able to reach lvl 20 this side of the Millenium. You don't take Epic dodge until lvl 33 anyway. Yeah, I'm repeating the others. Oh, and assuming you will boost STR to max is not likely. You would want to boost DEX instead, and rarely will you find a setting that gives you the possibility of having both maxed DEX and STR. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
At the moment I have the feeling of "While the cat's away the mice come out to play." Thankyou for your feedback, these are my responses.
Starting from the top
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 00:28:10 (GMT) -- avarielo Epic Prowess is lacking, which makes this NOT A HAPPY FUN-TIME BUILD.
Not every build has to have EP my friend, and the fact this is a sneaker means that EP is -way- down the list. Do you understand what being FF does to a build's AC?
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 01:47:38 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia wth? how come best Fort with that CON?
Quote properly please, I said pre-epic levelling optimised, not once did I say starting abilities or feats.
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 04:56:18 (GMT) -- Xylophone You'll want at least a 12 con, if not a 14 con, and toughness. As it is, if a maxed IGMS doesn't kill you in one shot, a stiff breeze will be enough to finish the job after.
Xy, how many mages are going to detect this build do you think? Additionally, IGMS has always seemed to me like it has a more significant casting delay, a target moving out of sight eg round a corner causes spell fizzle more often than a bigby or dispel. Might be just my perception. Anyway, the max a mage is going to get off is one IGMS if he/she is lucky, and once in stealth is not going to hit you. There's also this cool little skill called heal which you can do while stealthed to restore your hp...
Thankyou for taking the time to do this, as a decent CON alternative it's good.
Yet I also do not agree with it - and would like you to consider a scenario: If you were to pit the original build versus your one in a pvp arena with corners available, who would win? The original has 70 MS versus your 47 Listen. The original has 60 Listen versus your 65 MS. The original has 51 Disc versus your 44 AB, IKD so add 4 to the check, let's pretend it's 48AB. The original has 43 AB versus your 42 Disc.
Conclusion: Original has significantly higher chance to detect, hide from, and KD the modified version. And in a sneaker battle, the one who can detect the other is always going to win. More hp just means it takes longer to die. And not that much longer also, 170 more hp is equivalent to two sneak crits.
Oh and extend spell is a nono. The only value in it is for bladethirst. All other spells have significant duration (camos, OWTL, aid etc) or are level 4 e.g. freedom and cant be extended. Oh yes, and as Grimnir has pointed out, hide is a tad low.
To answer some general criticisms:
Drop ESKF Disc. Find me a melee build on this forum that cannot KD 42 Disc. Either you play on a world with KD immunity items, in which case dont bother getting any, or you get Disc and you get it as high as possible. KD, Disarm, Called Shot are all based on Disc, you cannot ignore it if you are fighting intelligent creatures that use these.
Drop XXX stealth. I'm struggling to find the part where I said this was a melee build This is a sneaker build. It's not going to be of use to anyone if Jack cleric with 36 wisdom and an eskf listen can see you and has remembered a few implode spells today. Anyone who wants to detect it has to gimp also. And gimp alot.
Get HP. I play this build a significant amount, and I do it with only a +2 con item. If you feel you need more hp for your environment, go ahead and change it.
Hell levelling. You got me there. I posted late and forgot to switch things around to make it early levelling friendly. Ofc you're going to take fighter levels earlier for better ab and use of your favoured weapon the kukri, and yes Grizz, take rogue levels earlier to get ED sooner. Fair cop on that one.
The overall problem here, is that we all play on different worlds, and as such are all trying to apply each PW's logic to the build. Take I...Samphus's post and look at the skills. Why has he taken UMD 15, Lore 1? Junk disable? Where I play those amounts would be considered wasted skills as the lore is useless, the UMD is floating in no-man's land and the junk disable couldn't remove a minor frost trap. Yet where he plays those are probably the most efficient use of skill points.
Simply put, regard it as a template for a build that maxes stealth and does -high- damage on sneak attacks. Survivability comes from epic dodge and running away to stealth again, using heal to cover any lucky hits taken. HP is an afterthought.
In conclusion, I can only quote someone who has already posted:
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 10:27:47 (GMT) -- krsboss 40 HP & IKD will not matter one bit if the person you are trying to sneak can detect you.
/signed
edit: And Kail or Grip is going to catch me on the "what is it for" part, sigh ^^. If you hadn't guessed it's Pvp focussed, 1-40 if you switch those feats around to take WF: kukri etc earlier _________________ Some Forum Members believe respect is a right and should be freely given. Myself: I work on a point-buy system, and today my friend you're all out of credit...
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 04:56:18 (GMT) -- Xylophone You'll want at least a 12 con, if not a 14 con, and toughness. As it is, if a maxed IGMS doesn't kill you in one shot, a stiff breeze will be enough to finish the job after.
Xy, how many mages are going to detect this build do you think? Additionally, IGMS has always seemed to me like it has a more significant casting delay, a target moving out of sight eg round a corner causes spell fizzle more often than a bigby or dispel. Might be just my perception. Anyway, the max a mage is going to get off is one IGMS if he/she is lucky, and once in stealth is not going to hit you. There's also this cool little skill called heal which you can do while stealthed to restore your hp...
Try "every epic mage, and cleric, and druid will see you coming a mile away" - they have this spell called True Seeing. One of its benefits is that you automatically pass any Spot checks. Many servers change this to a Spot bonus of +20 - but that's still a big Spot bonus.
I think it's just your perception on the damage thing, or you're fighting creatures/casters who aren't Hastened. And any decent arcane caster won't start with IGMS, they'll start with Bigby (you have absolutely no hope of resisting it, too) or (if it's allowed) Time Stop.
This doesn't even get in to the issue of your saves - for a pure caster you're deathspell bait and mindspell bait even with your spellcraft bonus. A high-DC caster cleric's Implosion, in particular, is going to kill you about 80% of the time and there's no immunity to it. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 00:28:10 (GMT) -- avarielo Epic Prowess is lacking, which makes this NOT A HAPPY FUN-TIME BUILD.
Not every build has to have EP my friend, and the fact this is a sneaker means that EP is -way- down the list. Do you understand what being FF does to a build's AC?
43 is good, but it will not save your life. Every point counts, and even for sneakers EP is very important. Most of the time the only way you can CONSIDER not having EP is if you have HiPS.
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 04:56:18 (GMT) -- Xylophone You'll want at least a 12 con, if not a 14 con, and toughness. As it is, if a maxed IGMS doesn't kill you in one shot, a stiff breeze will be enough to finish the job after.
Xy, how many mages are going to detect this build do you think? Additionally, IGMS has always seemed to me like it has a more significant casting delay, a target moving out of sight eg round a corner causes spell fizzle more often than a bigby or dispel. Might be just my perception. Anyway, the max a mage is going to get off is one IGMS if he/she is lucky, and once in stealth is not going to hit you. There's also this cool little skill called heal which you can do while stealthed to restore your hp...
You're not going to be stealthing in the middle of a fight in order to heal because you do not have HiPS. And you are not going to be taking most mages down in one hit, because of two tricky things - True Seeing and Epic Warding/Stoneskin/Any damage reduction spell known to man. _________________ CATS!
Chopping your post up a bit Xy
Quote: I think it's just your perception on the damage thing, or you're fighting creatures/casters who aren't Hastened. And any decent arcane caster won't start with IGMS, they'll start with Bigby (you have absolutely no hope of resisting it, too) or (if it's allowed) Time Stop.
Then dont appear! Or appear while they're mid cast of another spell. I have no pretensions that this build can solo a crit immune pm sheathed mage...
Quote: This doesn't even get in to the issue of your saves - for a pure caster you're deathspell bait and mindspell bait even with your spellcraft bonus. A high-DC caster cleric's Implosion, in particular, is going to kill you about 80% of the time and there's no immunity to it.
Very true, and as such gear should be focussed to saves vs fort if there is such a caster about, but again, if they can't spot you the advantage is in your court. The max attainable fort vs dev is 49 btw, all you need is 41 fort (+5 from spellcraft) to leave a DC 48 imploder needing 1s.
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 19:14:25 (GMT) -- Xylophone Try "every epic mage, and cleric, and druid will see you coming a mile away" - they have this spell called True Seeing. One of its benefits is that you automatically pass any Spot checks. Many servers change this to a Spot bonus of +20 - but that's still a big Spot bonus.
I'm starting to think I should have stated the obvious in my original post. This is a sneaker. There isn't much point in playing a sneaker if true seeing is instant spot on your world. If it is nerfed to a +20 bonus then that essentially negates Camo and Mass Camo. You still have the One with the land bonus, decent base dex and the pre epic feats for +5. Are you starting to understand now why so many pre epic skf's are taken? _________________ LISTEN! If you say one more thing,I will shove something thats the same size as Elminster,AND his hat,up an orifice so dark and seldom seen that even the Baaetazu of the 9 Hells will not touch it with a 20 foot rusty halberd, DO I MAKE MY SELF CLEAR!
Edited By pocketbeetle on 06/01/06 22:14
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 21:42:08 (GMT) -- avarielo
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 18:07:32 (GMT) -- pocketbeetle Do you understand what being FF does to a build's AC?
43 is good, but it will not save your life. Every point counts, and even for sneakers EP is very important. Most of the time the only way you can CONSIDER not having EP is if you have HiPS.
Please explain to me your train of logic, that leads for you to say that ab is necessary to save a sneaks life?
And then explain to me how having 1 point higher ab will significantly alter this state of affairs.
Are you of the opinion that there is a critical ab for sneak builds, which being above or below will determine whether you hit or miss more often?
You still havent answered my question also, it might help if we both are in agreement about what being FF does to AC
Quote:
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 18:07:32 (GMT) -- pocketbeetle Additionally, IGMS has always seemed to me like it has a more significant casting delay, a target moving out of sight eg round a corner causes spell fizzle more often than a bigby or dispel. Might be just my perception. Anyway, the max a mage is going to get off is one IGMS if he/she is lucky, and once in stealth is not going to hit you. There's also this cool little skill called heal which you can do while stealthed to restore your hp...
You're not going to be stealthing in the middle of a fight in order to heal because you do not have HiPS.
Where did I state that I would be stealthing in the middle of a fight? Bolded above is where I specifically mention going out of sight, thereby allowing you to stealth.
Quote: And you are not going to be taking most mages down in one hit, because of two tricky things - True Seeing and Epic Warding/Stoneskin/Any damage reduction spell known to man.
Where did I state that I would be taking mages out in one hit?
In fact, here:
Quote: This build should use a sling liberally:...harrass groups and and attack non pm characters with damage shields (bards & mages)
I specifically use the word harass, the implication being gradual wearing down as opposed to one hit killing. _________________ Stupidity and laziness annoy me. If my tone seems acerbic then examine your post. If you can find no examples of either, then the conclusion should be obvious.
I specifically use the word harass, the implication being gradual wearing down as opposed to one hit killing.
Well you take your harassing quite a different way most other people do. _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
Hi Finneous
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 22:13:37 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ Are you saying that sneakers do not need AB? I find that logic even harder to follow.
Of course not. The following questions then ask if there is a critical ab necessary. The answer I'm trying to (admittedly bludgeon) him/her into is the recognition that +1 ab is not going to make a sneak build incredibly better. It's crucial on any archer/meleer, but when dealing with a flatfooted character it's no where near as necessary.
Also, You're better off taking 2 Grt Dex since this will also give +1 AC and +2 stealth as well as that +1ab
I state again, EP is way down the list on a sneaker build.
Quote: Well you take your harassing quite a different way most other people do.
I feel that words are being put in my mouth. See the first post on page 2. Several times he is countering claims I have not made. _________________ Character Build Calculator:Kamiryn's uber tool. (That's the tool belonging to Kamiryn, not Kamiryn is a tool you fool!)
Of course not. The following questions then ask if there is a critical ab necessary. The answer I'm trying to (admittedly bludgeon) him/her into is the recognition that +1 ab is not going to make a sneak build incredibly better. It's crucial on any archer/meleer, but when dealing with a flatfooted character it's no where near as necessary.
Also, You're better off taking 2 Grt Dex since this will also give +1 AC and +2 stealth as well as that +1ab
I state again, EP is way down the list on a sneaker build.
I have only one argument: have a look at I...Samphus' build one the first page of this thread. _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 22:35:32 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ I have only one argument: have a look at I...Samphus' build one the first page of this thread.
I've already checked that out and quoted it several times. Can you explain what you mean please? _________________ The following statement is true. The above statement is false.
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 22:35:32 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ I have only one argument: have a look at I...Samphus' build one the first page of this thread.
I've already checked that out and quoted it several times. Can you explain what you mean please?
He has 168 more HP, one point more AB be it ranged or melee, two more AC, three points more Fortitude. It's true that his sneaking skills are a little lower, but the difference isn't that crucial and only a dedicated build will detected either of these. Now, when that happens, and - you can quote me on this - it will happen, Samphus' build is that much more survivable and more able in toe-to-toe melee.
EDIT: oh, his Reflex save is one point lower, but that's not a big deal with Improved Evasion.
Before you make any arguments about not going with toe-to-toe melee, think on this: it may your playing style to sneak attack, then run behind a corner to hide again, and sneak attack. Repeat until foe is dead. But you must realize that not everyone is willing to play the game like that, and that's why some people feel these sort of tweaks are not only necessary but crucial. YMMV. _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
Edited By FinneousPJ on 06/01/06 22:48
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 22:46:08 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ He has 168 more HP, one point more AB be it ranged or melee, two more AC, three points more Fortitude. It's true that his sneaking skills are a little lower, but the difference isn't that crucial and only a dedicated build will detected either of these. Now, when that happens, and - you can quote me on this - it will happen, Samphus' build is that much more survivable and more able in toe-to-toe melee.
Sneaking skills as you say are lower. Discipline, something fundamental to Nwn, is lower. Detect skills are now what is considered 'junk' where I play - 43 no foci. Sneak attacks: now only 8d6 compared with 12d6 ie 30% less
And the point is, all the things mentioned above count for a lot more than the occassional time you end up "toe to toe in melee". If you find yourself in melee more often than you are trying to remain stealthed/ detect other sneakers/ resist kd when running away then you are doing the wrong thing.
And surely you will concede that 42 disc is just going to be kd'd constantly in melee!
Anyway, we're banging posts back and forth, I can see you have your opinion and I obviously have mine. Enough, unless you wish to continue _________________ The following statement is true. The above statement is false.
Quote: Posted 06/01/06 22:46:08 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ Before you make any arguments about not going with toe-to-toe melee, think on this: it may your playing style to sneak attack, then run behind a corner to hide again, and sneak attack. Repeat until foe is dead. But you must realize that not everyone is willing to play the game like that, and that's why some people feel these sort of tweaks are not only necessary but crucial. YMMV.
Oooh ninja edit!
Yes, but these people who don't want to play the game like that should search the forum for a build they do like.
Arguing that a sneak build doesn't have enough tanking ability is like arguing that a druid doesn't have a decent DC implosion
This build is focussed on high stealth. If you want mid stealth and tanking ability - make an edodge monk... _________________ PocketBeetle: Well on the way to earning a PHD in "Applied Idiocy"
Yes, but these people who don't want to play the game like that should search the forum for a build they do like.
The point, I believe, is to offer suggestions as to how a make a build better. If I, or mister Samphus, here, feel this build would be better with a bit more HP, we're going to say so. If you do not want to hear that or any other suggestions, post somewhere else
Arguing that a sneak build doesn't have enough tanking ability is like arguing that a druid doesn't have a decent DC implosion
It's not about "tanking ability", it's about survivability. _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
So basically what you are saying, is that your build's viability in PvP is contingent on having a corner to hide around every time you get into a fight, and hoping that you can break off from combat and make it around said corner before your opponent can react? It seems like if you make a mistake with that tactic, you're gonna get creamed because you don't have the hitpoints to withstand a good offensive character's punch.
Or to put it simply - you can only win with this build if the enemy doesn't get to fight back? I think most builds can win if the enemy doesn't fight back, but I doubt many enemies are going to be that obliging.
Other people will have haste and be able to keep up with your running so that you can't get out of their sight long enough to hide, for example (and fear the monks!). There are many abilities that can keep you from moving, or moving as quickly (such as bigby's, knockdown, called shot leg, even the lowly grease and entangle). And the world simply isn't made of corners.
To put it on a bumper sticker, an intelligent, experienced PvPer won't fall for this trick. Would you?
Getting your hitpoints up over 350, or better yet 400, gives you a chance at survival and escape, or even at victory in a toe-to-toe, when the perfect conditions for your "hit and run around a corner" tactics aren't met.
On the True Seeing issue - if it's a +20 spot check nerfed version, spending 3 feats for +5 to your stealth skills is still pretty wasteful.
You've got 68 hide with your build, +24 from spells, and +6 from max-buffed dex for a total of 98 hide. An arcane caster with ESF Spot will have 53 spot, +20 true seeing, +10 clairaudience/clairvoyance for a total of 83. So far it looks good because you have a 75% chance of sneaking up on him. Without your preepic stealth feats he'd have a 50-50 chance of spotting you. But if he buffs his wisdom, say because he's tired of getting snuck up on, you'll go down from 75% chance of sneaking up on him, to having a 45% chance of sneaking up on him.
So you're spending 3 feats for less than a 50/50 chance of sneaking up on an arcane caster who doesn't want to be snuck up on.
A wis-pumped divine caster with ESF spot and true seeing will have enough spot to see you every single time however, since we can also assume they'll have max-buffed their wisdom.
And a bard with ESF Listen, Amplify (+20 buff), and clairaudience/clairvoyance will have very high chances of spotting you too, because you get a +5 listen bonus just for standing still.
Therefore you're spending 3 feats and not getting a heck of a lot of benefit, from what I can tell. People who don't have a +20 counter-stealth buff won't be able to detect you even if you didn't have the +5 you get from those 3 feats. People who do have a +20 counter-stealth buff will have a good-to-excellent chance of detecting you even with the +5 you get from those feats. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Xylophone said it all. _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
Nothing more to add... everyone has argued my case for me
To put it on a bumper sticker, an intelligent, experienced PvPer won't fall for this trick. Would you?
this made me laugh !!!
well i just read "are you saying snealers dont need ab ?"
Hell if they have the choice between more stealh skillz or 1ab , go with the stealth , youre ab suxs anyway and you wont hit anyone 1on1 , the point of snealers is to hit out of stealth. flatfooted means you loose loads of ac so boosting stealth is more important.
The build is good and can be nasty only drawback imo is that monks can outrun you and being that slow while sneaking can be annoying to play since you have to camp spots instead of hunting peeps ( take 9 monk only 16 rogue and u get some speed and ac when dauling , tho yoou loose feats but still get all the hide feats)
vs mages : dont forget icestorms on the area you were hiding in or wail
Still its a good build with maxed hide /ms and if you play smart ,stay hidden most time and just strike to kill someone you ll do great .
one question Xylophone ...Trueseeing gives +20 spot? lol maybe in your environment.and dont forget about skill points of items which you can get everywhere, thats when the mage has no chance anymore.(i just say hardskill cap at 50, dex adds to hide which this char got plenty , wis a sorc has none ). What has a chance to spot this build is a zen cleric with doamin knowledge.Still with Reliables build you can hit the max hide /ms leaving someone with max spot to a 50/50 chance.
you think you hit with a melee char? well yeah but epic dodge saves and then you run , besides you strike from the back , mostly when your victim is fighting someone else and now he can try to target you when you run while whoever fights him gets +2ab cuz of flanking.
this builds owns melees andyou always can use a sling if you dont want to get that close cuz your vicitm is tooo dangerous.
dont know if pocketbeetle said any of this already, iff so ignore that
you think you hit with a melee char? well yeah but epic dodge saves and then you run , besides you strike from the back , mostly when your victim is fighting someone else and now he can try to target you when you run while whoever fights him gets +2ab cuz of flanking.
Against many opponents, running is not a viable tactic.
Well you take your harassing quite a different way most other people do.
this made me laugh !!!