Spell DCs: Wizard Base Spell DC (add spell level to get the final spell DC): Abjuration / Conjuration / Divination / Enchantment / Evocation / Illusion / Necromancy / Transmution 22/22/22/28/22/22/22/22
Cleric Base Spell DC (add spell level to get the final spell DC): Abjuration / Conjuration / Divination / Enchantment / Evocation / Illusion / Necromancy / Transmution 12/12/12/18/12/12/12/12
Alright, I know what you're asking yourself: Why the hell did you take 8 levels of cleric? Well, I wanted to try something a bit different with this. It's my first -real- mage build (as in, it's not a Sorc/Monk/Pally), and I wanted a bit of an edge against other classes, so I started thinking about how to do this. Mages don't get Silence, I thought to myself, so that's out of the question...but then I thought, "Hey, wait...Cleric does!" Thus was this idea born. The 8 Cleric levels are pretty much -solely- there for Silence. You get four extended and five normal casts of Silence a day.
I know, even a normal dispel could strip the Silence off of me, but the point is to be up close and personal with your opponent. The Hide/MS that Monk gives helps out with this a little bit, but mostly just for hiding behind a corner and ambushing, as any real mage will have True Seeing up, but even with it they can't see you around the corner. So you hide, wait for them, step out and put your silence up, and proceed to kill them while they're trying to find out why they can't cast. If they put up Spell Mantle, you can use the Silence Aura to strip it off of them. The main issue it'll have is with Gloves of Invulnerability, which will render them immune. In this case, you're going to have to Mord them, and get it off. You pretty much rely solely on your Silence against mages.
Against low-will classes (most everything other than a caster, usually) you can use the effective combination of Mind Fog+your very impressive Enchantment DC. A good tactic against anything but a caster would be to put a Darkness up against a wall (or in a dead end of a hallway would be great as well) and block off all routes into the darkness with Mind Fog. Make sure you have Ultravision or True Seeing, and wait for them to hit the Fog. Once they do, use an Enchantment spell of your wish, and then open up on them with your Damaging arsenal. IGMS, Horrid, Prismatic Spray, etc.
Any improvements you can think of are welcomed. =)
~Acothea
Oh, and I have a quick question, if anyone can answer:
Would Divine Power increase your touch attack AB? I'm only wondering, because Divine Power would give this character a +10 or so AB, as well as another +10 (I think +20 is the cap?) from True Strike would give you a pretty nice Touch Attack AB if it works like that. You're not really using the Fourth level cleric spells for anything else...
Actually, your spell DC isnt that high, except for enchantment school. The bad thing is your enchantment spells will begin to be efficient at the end of your lvling, which makes this build a bit weak at the beginning imo.
There are several feats useless too; you could consider swapping them for more usefull ones. luck of heroes or great fortitude are useless.
And you should consider taking at least epic warding...
I took the saving throw feats because I'm not a Sorceror, and thus have horrible saves. a Dev Crit will still likely get me every time, but oh well.
And as for Epic Spells: I don't like them, and consider them cheesey. Epic Warding completely defeats the point of being a mage. Mages are supposed to be glass cannons, not glass cannons with a rotating vortex of adamantium.
Thanks for pointing out that my DC's are wrong...I took them from the character levelling spreadsheet direclty, without double-checking. Sorry about that. The DC's, really, don't even matter, though. The only one worth really counting on will be Enchantment. You're not going to be FoD'ing or Wail of the Bansheeing anyone. If you want to instantly kill someone, throw a Prismatic Spray and hope for the Death Effect. It's a reflex save, if I remember correctly...so toss that at a strength tank and they'll generally go down.
As for being weak at low levels: Meh, is any mage really weak at low levels? At lower levels I'd suggest just tossing deathspells. You're not going to have an amazingly high DC, but it'll usually be enough for low level people, you tend to fail horribly against death pre-epic. Then just switch to Enchantment spells once your Death Spell DC can't keep up with people's saving throws.
And yeah, I know Mind Spells aren't exactly the best option for a mage, but I get tired of seeing Evocation and Necromancy focused mages, so I did something a little different. It can be quite potent when you make sure to dispel any PFA or Immunity To Mind Spell buffs that they have and wait for them to get Mind Fogged. Confusion is nasty.
Edited By Acothea on 06/04/06 09:12
Oh, and this is my first mage, remember, so I'm not really sure what feats are intensely useful. I was iffy about Combat Casting and it's Epic version, since I've never really seen it in action.
Take Healing domain, and one more lvl of Cleric so you get a casting of Heal...
Silence is an iffy spell at best and Globe of Invulnerability pwns you, as will higher level monsters who are immune to lvl 2 spells or lower...
AND Enchantment spells will do jack against 90% of the hard monsters you face who will have Mind Immunity...
Lose the spell penetration feats...8 lvls of Cleric is NOT going to cut it even with the feats, and just Spell Penetration with Wizard is more than enough for you to beat standard SR...
I recommend picking up Necromancy focii, or Evocation focii...
And maybe heavier on the Cleric? If you're taking cleric, I'd say getting ATLEAST Heal, Harm, Divine Power etc is essential as your Silence trick (though creative) is just not going to cut it against 90% of your opponents and doesn't justify taking any cleric lvls at all...
Enchantment isn't a terrible school to focus on if you have lowish DCs, actually, because of Mind Fog. The problem of mind immunity is still a problem, of course, but there are a number of good no-save direct damage spells, a fact which makes Evocation focus less attractive anyway. Necromancy is probably the best focus if you'll have high DCs, not just for death magic but for the debuffing and drain magic.
But enchantment spells are great, when they work at all. That's kinda their problem in a nutshell though - they're frequently ineffective due to immunity, and even when there isn't an immunity they are save-to-negate instead of save-for-half or save-vs-death, and take damage if successful.
I don't think that your silence trick is going to work very well, however, and probably isn't worth taking cleric levels for. I'd strongly recommend doing some tests with it in combat like in the Novice to Epic Character Maker module and posting the results. If it doesn't work as well as you hope, you free up three feats from auto-silent spell.
You don't need Greater or Epic penetration in this build, for fighting toolset-basic SR. In an environment using scripted SR or that has NPCs with alot of monk levels, higher penetration is worthwhile however.
That said, you do want to free up an epic feat or two in this build, to at least take Epic Warding if not both Epic Warding and Epic Mage Armor. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Yeah, your Silence tactic is probably not going to be too effective against casters. Your DC for that spell (is it Enchantment?) is going to be extremely low: 10 + 2 (WIS modifier) + 2 (spell level) = 14. Add 6 if it's Enchantment (although something tells me it's Illusion?) for a max of 20 unbuffed DC. That's going against a caster's high save (Will). I don't see there being much chance of that landing, even with Mind Fog active (which is another Will Save spell).
Thanks all for your input, it really helps. =)
I guess the biggest problem that I never even realized was that silence, when in an aura around you, had a DC. I thought it only had a DC when you casted it on someone else. So, yeah, that kind of throws the entire build down the drain, unfortunately.
At any rate, it was still a fun concept, and I might tinker with it a little bit to get kind of a Red Mage thing going, with Cleric for healing and Wizard for everything else. 26 Wizard would still net me two bonus feats and I'd be fine against Greater Dispel. Only problem is that I'd need to drop a stat at creation to make room for more wisdom, which means less of something important, Con Dex or Int...
Anyway, thanks again for your input. I'm just glad people are actually helping me out with this one. =)
Oh, and sorry, I forgot to list it. This build is designed specifically for PvP, no PvE/M. I only play on one PvE/M server, and I'm not really a fan of it, so most of my time is spent on my PvP.
And thank you for pointing out that the Spell Penetration feats aren't necessary. once again, I'd never played a mage before, so I wasn't sure whether I'd need them or not.
Edited By Acothea on 06/04/06 23:32
Funny thing is, I never considered the cleric at all when I looked at this build. The truth is with all those free skills why would you take monk over bard? This makes no sense to me!!
Monk was just simply for the +2 AC that you'd get from Wisdom. The only thing Bard would give over Monk is UMD and Spot. UMD is pretty unecessary, since you can use Cleric and Wizard scrolls (leaving only bard/paladin, neither of which really benefit a Mage). And you have TS to make up for the lack of spot.
Plus if you are a Wizard/Cleric already...taking Monk completely negates UMD...unless you are fanatic of Bardic instruments...
Plus if you are a Wizard/Cleric already...taking Monk completely negates UMD...unless you are fanatic of Bardic instruments...
Not really, UMD gives access to race restricted gear too for example and there are classes which are not Wizard or Cleric or Monk
Cheers, Kail _________________ To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives They fought for you and me Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
If you silence yourself, I don't think your opponents GET a save. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
If you silence yourself, I don't think your opponents GET a save.
That's what I had believed as well. I haven't tested this, and I don't have access to NWN right now to do so. If someone would be able to test it for me, and post their results, I'd be very appreciative. As it is, if the verdict remains that there is a save, the build is ruined. =/
IIRC there's indeed no save, but the silence does not move with you but stays fixed in the area around the position where you standed when casting it on yourself.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Looking for a realm of adventure? Check out World of Greyhawk, you won't regret it.
IIRC there's indeed no save, but the silence does not move with you but stays fixed in the area around the position where you standed when casting it on yourself.
Cheers, Kail
No, I'm positive that the silence has an aura, 100%. The problem might be, however, that the aura gets bugged sometimes (kind of like Battletide) and thus lags behind and/or stays in one place.
Generally speaking I feel it's a bad idea to post a build that hasn't been combat-tested, just for future reference. Especially in this case, where you've created a "gimmick build" based around silence but don't know exactly how, or if, your gimmick works. It's the poster's responsibility to have their stuff together in these cases, methinks.
That said, I'll see about trying silence out with one of my clerics in a pve arena when I'm home from work. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
There's no save if you have cast it on yourself, only spell resistance upon entering the aura. _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
Edited By FinneousPJ on 06/05/06 17:56
Hmm, I know for a fact that we used to do the silence self thing vs one particular dragon on old Amon, so I do have combat experience with it. Just never thought to look at the combat log! I was too busy stoppin from diyin to look. And it gets sorta redundant after you have camped the same dragon for 2 hours straight! sorry for not addin any "authourity" to the silence thing. Just thought i'd vent alittle!
It works as Finn says, area moving with you and enemies get a SR check when entering the area. Just checked it out. I guess I remembered some bad experience on a particularly laggy server *shrugs*
Cheers, Kail _________________ Looking for a realm of adventure? Check out World of Greyhawk, you won't regret it.
Generally speaking I feel it's a bad idea to post a build that hasn't been combat-tested, just for future reference. Especially in this case, where you've created a "gimmick build" based around silence but don't know exactly how, or if, your gimmick works. It's the poster's responsibility to have their stuff together in these cases, methinks.
That said, I'll see about trying silence out with one of my clerics in a pve arena when I'm home from work.
Well, going into the build I was 100% positive it worked like it does. I've seen the tactic used on my server quite a few times with full clerics. But, the pros here at the EBG made me doubt my own logic. =P
Thanks for getting things cleared up...I'd have tested it myself, like I said, but I don't currently have access to NWN.
It works as Finn says, area moving with you and enemies get a SR check when entering the area. Just checked it out. I guess I remembered some bad experience on a particularly laggy server *shrugs*
Cheers, Kail
Why of course it does _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
Oh, and: "Pft, gimmick build", to you Xylo.
It's much less of a gimmick than those Sorc/Pally/Monks out there in droves of millions. It's just more unique, and requires more tactic than IGMS spamming. ^^
Well, I'm a bit confused on this then. After patch 1.66, I played on a PW I frequented quite often and, after hearing many people tout this tactic, I decided to try it out to see how it worked. I had a low-level Bard build and tried this vs a Bugbear shaman. He was still able to cast within the aura (I cast Silence on my character) and he had no SR whatsoever. (And no, the shamans didn't have Silent Spell) I double checked this, just to be sure, and upon confirming it, I abandoned that tactic altogether.
Quote: Posted 06/05/06 20:48:35 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Well, I'm a bit confused on this then. After patch 1.66, I played on a PW I frequented quite often and, after hearing many people tout this tactic, I decided to try it out to see how it worked. I had a low-level Bard build and tried this vs a Bugbear shaman. He was still able to cast within the aura (I cast Silence on my character) and he had no SR whatsoever. (And no, the shamans didn't have Silent Spell) I double checked this, just to be sure, and upon confirming it, I abandoned that tactic altogether.
It may be that the Shaman's spells were not actually spells, but " special abilities". Now, I'm quite sure they're not affected by silence, but I think that's a logical explanation. Many builders tend to give creatures spells through that menu. _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
mmkay, I had a friend test for me, since I'm unable to, and he sent me the results. This is the most definitive proof I think I can find.
As you can see, my friend backed away and let the cleric start casting, and then quickly moved forward. They got a spell resistance check, and then the spell stopped. He did this twice to be sure, and both times are shown here.
Hope that's enough...
Quote: Posted 06/05/06 21:13:54 (GMT) -- Acothea
mmkay, I had a friend test for me, since I'm unable to, and he sent me the results. This is the most definitive proof I think I can find.
As you can see, my friend backed away and let the cleric start casting, and then quickly moved forward. They got a spell resistance check, and then the spell stopped. He did this twice to be sure, and both times are shown here.
Hope that's enough...
Definitely proof of Spell Resistance checks, but what if he passed the check? Does he not have to make the Will save? FWIW, I'm quite willing to believe I'm mistaken on this, and Finn's explanation of those shamans strikes me as probably the explanation of what I experienced.
Without having two Players, and not an NPC, to test it, we can't really be sure of whether or not there's a save. It was a cleric that he was against, and he claims that the character he used should have had a relatively low DC. *shrugs*
Quote: Posted 06/05/06 20:36:08 (GMT) -- Acothea
Oh, and: "Pft, gimmick build", to you Xylo.
It's much less of a gimmick than those Sorc/Pally/Monks out there in droves of millions. It's just more unique, and requires more tactic than IGMS spamming. ^^
Most wizards are capable of using better tactics than IGMS spamming, it's rather that many players don't want to think and just reach for the biggest hammer they can find to solve any problem, even if that problem could be dealt with by a small screwdriver instead.
The reason I call this a gimmick build is because you're spending three valuable epic feats on one tactic. In a build that's not getting epic warding, you can really use those feats back, certainly justifying in my mind the few minutes it'd have taken to test it out.
And you have to ask yourself - does the tactic justify that use of epic feats? I'm iffy on that, to be honest, because even if there's no save, against opposition with serious SR you're not going to beat it often. You'll have to keep your epic penetration feat now to have a chance of silencing enemies with 32 SR (you'll have a 15% of landing it on said foes with epic pene, 5% with greater pene).
Four epic feats for a 15% chance of an anti-caster tactic to work doesn't seem like good odds to me, making a cleric build with auto silent would make more sense IMO. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Yes, but if I were to make another mage, even say a Sorc/Pally/Monk, I still wouldn't take feats like Epic Warding, or Epic Mage Armour. I just don't like Epic Spells.
This also wasn't really an attempt at an omg-pwn-you kind of build. I was, for the most part, trying to see if it -would- work effectively. As for Spell Resistance: Druids and Clerics are really the only casters that get Spell Resistance, and a Mord is going to take it down. I'm going to be opening every single caster fight with a Mord anyway, as it's simply the smart thing to do. Any Monk with good enough SR is going to be heavily invested in Monk, and not so much in a caster class, thus I'm not going to need to silence him anyway.
And I was just being sarcastic when I "pft'd" you. =P
You know, I'm not entirely clear after looking at that link again:
There's a Cleric, level 40 and there's Acothea the Pious.
The Cleric attempts to cast Implosion and tries to resist the spell (I assume he's trying to resist the Silence Spell?) He fails. Then what? There's no indiciation his Implosion spell failed (and there's no indiciation that Pious has cast Silence - was it cast beforehand?)
What's the situation there?
This is how he told me he did it, exactly:
Casted Silence on himself, which made a white aura around him. Engaged the Cleric. Fought for a while against him (during this time, the Cleric casted no spells), ran away to summon the arena golem (if you're familiar with the mod, it attacks and kills your opponents). When he ran away, the Cleric followed, and then after the golem was summoned (while the cleric was out of the aura) the cleric started to cast Implosion, so he ran up to him. That's the first "Spell Resistance" check that you see. Then he backed up again, and the cleric started to cast Implosion once more, at which time he ran to the cleric once more. That's the second "Sepll Resistance" check.
The proof that the Implosions failed (the only proof I can ascertain) is that his character didn't receive a Saving Throw vs. Death.
And yes, he's using a build I sent him...a Cleric 35/Barbarian 3/Monk 2...it doesn't have any Spell Foci whatsoever, it was built as a healer.
Edited By Acothea on 06/05/06 23:02
Cool. Thanks for the heads up on this. I just tested a bit, but my results re a save throw were unclear. Here's what I did: I made a Cleric level 9 and put him up against a level 15 mage. Cast the Silent spell and then ran at the Mage. As soon as the aura hits the Mage (I was invis), it's considered an attack.
Got the attempts to resist spell message: failure. He cast Ray of Enfeeblement on me (no verbal component).
However, the interesting thing is this. In subsequent tests, he threw up a spell mantle, which absorbs the spell and he's able to cast while in the aura. Also, a Minor Globe will block the effects as well.
*nods* Against a Spell Mantle the best tactic would be to run back and forth, making him hit the aura several times. This will apply the spell effect to him each time you do it, and it will quickly strip his Mantle.
Against a Glove of Invuln, unfortunately, your only option is to Dispel. I'm aware of this, and it's one of the biggest cons of the build.
Quote: Posted 06/05/06 23:26:27 (GMT) -- Acothea
*nods* Against a Spell Mantle the best tactic would be to run back and forth, making him hit the aura several times. This will apply the spell effect to him each time you do it, and it will quickly strip his Mantle.
Heh, yep. I tried this. It's not that effective against improved AI (such as Tony K's), since the mage just starts dumping things like Horrid and Evard's on you, although against the default AI it may work well. But with a human player controlling the Mage, you'll probably be dead long before that tactic works.
Quote: Posted 06/06/06 06:11:47 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Quote: Posted 06/05/06 23:26:27 (GMT) -- Acothea
*nods* Against a Spell Mantle the best tactic would be to run back and forth, making him hit the aura several times. This will apply the spell effect to him each time you do it, and it will quickly strip his Mantle.
Heh, yep. I tried this. It's not that effective against improved AI (such as Tony K's), since the mage just starts dumping things like Horrid and Evard's on you, although against the default AI it may work well. But with a human player controlling the Mage, you'll probably be dead long before that tactic works.
That's because silence is a level 2 spell, it'll take 3-5 applications if not more to wear down a spell mantle.
Flame arrow will probably do a much better job since each "arrow" counts as a new spell for busting mantles. And of course, incendiary cloud is always good for wearing mantles out since it applies 8 levels of spell every round.
But this goes back to my previous point in some regards - you will end up having to fall back on "standard" mage duel tactics with this build against most opponents, making the feat investment for silencing a questionable one. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
sorry for not addin any "authourity" to the silence thing. Just thought i'd vent alittle! 
It works as Finn says, area moving with you and enemies get a SR check when entering the area. Just checked it out. I guess I remembered some bad experience on a particularly laggy server *shrugs*