The REAL Devastating Rogue (with no rogue levels)! Monk 12 / Cleric 13 / Ranger 15
The official Bioware Devastating Rogue sucks. Here is my version of a devastating rogue, though not actually having any rogue levels it might seem like a bit strange to some, however this build is surprisingly effective!
PvP build, playable 1-40, though has XP penalties at points Best played 27 upwards
XP penalty, 17-22 – 20%; XP penalty, 36 – 20%; XP penalty, 39 – 20%; XP penalty 40 – 40%
Search engine reveals the following builds with these class combinations:
-untitled build- however this build is from 2004 and absolutely nothing like mine.
Self buffed with +12 to strength: 56 / 56 / 56 / 51 / 51 / 46 / 41
Basic idea with this build is to damage buff with Cleric buffs such as Divine Favor, Darkfire & Battletide, then run around with extended Silence, hiding around corners jumping out for a 3 hit hasted volley before running around a corner again.
Ranger buffs such as camouflage, mass camouflage & one with the land, combined with trackless step give a nice +28 to hide skill taking it to 85 without any hide gear or dexterity buffing.
Naturally the viability of Corner Sneakers is dependant on True Seeing being NERFed!
Edited title (it was "the REAL devastating Rogue (with no Rogue levels)")- Kail Pendragon
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 07/02/06 16:21
Well, it's obviously a nice character, but as always with clerics you're going to have one major problem: Dispels. Many people in PW's and even in Arenas can obtain Dispel Scrolls or Rods, and a Greater Dispel (maybe even a regular dispel) would completely obliterate your AB, because you rely so much on Cleric to buff it.
Other than that, it's pretty neat...and confusing for not being a rogue.=P
I don't understand why its name is Devastating Rogue. _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
I don't understand why its name is Devastating Rogue.
Yeah. It has no real rogueish abilities. How is it a rogue? _________________ CATS!
Quote: Posted 06/08/06 06:43:45 (GMT) -- krsboss
The REAL Devastating Rogue (with no rogue levels)!
That kind of reminds me of a line in "the simpsons".
"You can receive this car absolutely free!!! *quietly* Warning: this product is not free".
Or how on the itchy and scratchy show, a message comes up afterwards saying "The preceeding program contained scenes of extreme violence and should not have been viewed by children."
Otherwise, the build is nice... but I like rogues *sob*
Edited By Big Meph on 06/08/06 08:50
Cleric buffs are really only for damage, and in fact the most important Cleric buff is your extended Silence as this helps to negate peoples listen checks, allowing for moderately junk Move Silently!
...
Yeah I know there aren't any Rogue levels, hence the name (with no Rogue levels)! However most sneakers ARE rogues, so a character that performs in such a Rogue-ish fashion could be condiered a Rogue...even if it does not ACTUALLY have the Rogue class ! ! !
Quote: Posted 06/08/06 10:34:09 (GMT) -- krsboss
Yeah I know there aren't any Rogue levels, hence the name (with no Rogue levels)! However most sneakers ARE rogues, so a character that performs in such a Rogue-ish fashion could be condiered a Rogue...even if it does not ACTUALLY have the Rogue class ! ! !
Oh, but your character does not perform in a Rogue-esque fashion because he lacks the skills. Besides, the point of the Devastating Rogue in the Epic Builds page is to have huge Sneak Attacks and Devastating Critical. Your build does not achieve this, and thus is definitely not the "real" Devastating Rogue. _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
Rogue n.
1. An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal. 2. One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp. 3. A wandering beggar; a vagrant.
As you can see, being able to sneak about, pick locks, steal from people, and sneak attack people aren't pre-requisites to being a Rogue. To be a Rogue, you merely have to be unsavoury.
Quote: Posted 06/08/06 12:59:01 (GMT) -- Acothea
Rogue n.
1. An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal. 2. One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp. 3. A wandering beggar; a vagrant.
As you can see, being able to sneak about, pick locks, steal from people, and sneak attack people aren't pre-requisites to being a Rogue. To be a Rogue, you merely have to be unsavoury.
I'm not talking about a characterisic, I'm talking about the class. Rogues, in D&D, pick locks, steal from people, sneak around and sneak attack; they set, search for and disable traps, and that sort of stuff. That's why I used a capital letter. _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
Quote: Posted 06/08/06 12:59:01 (GMT) -- Acothea
Rogue n.
1. An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal. 2. One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp. 3. A wandering beggar; a vagrant.
As you can see, being able to sneak about, pick locks, steal from people, and sneak attack people aren't pre-requisites to being a Rogue. To be a Rogue, you merely have to be unsavoury.
Unfortunately, that only applies to reality, and not the D&D multiverse. If you say you're a rogue, you are class type rogue. For more help, read this comic from aout half way through.
This guy would get totally owned in like 2 hits by just about any big bruiser out there. 270 hp and only 30 AC? I think I'll take the other 'real' devastating rogue that bioware made.
Are you including +12 from weapon enhancements to your 'buffed' AB? If so, please do not do that. Just include the AB your char can reach without such enhancements. If you can get +12 weapons, other people can probably get +12 armor, so its kinda worthless for comparison to say that's your max AB.
Why take so many monk levels? I'd personally only take a few of those (maybe just 1 at the end of the build, to avoid ECL penalties) and then put the rest into Cleric.
Edit: Epic Skill Foci can be taken without monk levels, afaik. I'd definitely drop to about Monk 6. Nice trick with swapping FE for other feats though in ranger. Still a real problem that you have no ROGUE in your rogue build.
Edited By Ythaniel on 06/08/06 14:24
Quote: Posted 06/08/06 14:20:05 (GMT) -- Ythaniel
This guy would get totally owned in like 2 hits by just about any big bruiser out there. 270 hp and only 30 AC? I think I'll take the other 'real' devastating rogue that bioware made.
Instead of laughing at other peoples' builds, perhaps you should offer suggestions as to how to make them better.
Quote: Posted 06/08/06 14:20:05 (GMT) -- Ythaniel
Why take so many monk levels? I'd personally only take a few of those (maybe just 1 at the end of the build, to avoid ECL penalties) and then put the rest into Cleric.
NWN doesn't even have ECL (Well, it does in a strange way, but that's immaterial ) _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
Edited By FinneousPJ on 06/08/06 14:27
Sorry to be a bother, but what's ECL? I don't know pen and paper very well... yet.
EDIT: I don't suppose that it stands for epic character levels, by any chance? And if it does, what epic character level penalties are there (aside from XP)?
Edited By Big Meph on 06/08/06 14:59
Just for reference, I was explaining that he might have used Rogue as a descriptor. Just like you might call someone a "Swashbuckler", when they're actually just a Fighter.
Quote: Posted 06/08/06 14:44:49 (GMT) -- Big Meph
Sorry to be a bother, but what's ECL? I don't know pen and paper very well... yet.
EDIT: I don't suppose that it stands for epic character levels, by any chance? And if it does, what epic character level penalties are there (aside from XP)?
ECL = Effective Character Level
ECL penalties to XP result when you have two (or more) classes with more than 1 level difference and neither (none) of those classes is a) a prestige class or b) your race's favored class. The penalty is -20% XP per level difference. Prestige classes aren't counted in this calculation (in NWN, not sure if that's a DND rule). Humans' and Half-elves' favored class is the one in which they have the most levels. Thus an Elf (favored class wizard) with 3 Rogue and 1 Ranger would have an ECL Penalty of -20% XP, since neither class is a favored class, and there is more than 1 level difference between them.
Edited By Ythaniel on 06/08/06 15:17
Quote: Posted 06/08/06 15:16:48 (GMT) -- Ythaniel
ECL = Effective Character Level
So far your right.
Quote: Posted 06/08/06 15:16:48 (GMT) -- Ythaniel ECL penalties to XP result when you have two (or more) classes with more than 1 level difference and neither (none) of those classes is a) a prestige class or b) your race's favored class. The penalty is -20% XP per level difference. Prestige classes aren't counted in this calculation (in NWN, not sure if that's a DND rule). Humans' and Half-elves' favored class is the one in which they have the most levels. Thus an Elf (favored class wizard) with 3 Rogue and 1 Ranger would have an ECL Penalty of -20% XP, since neither class is a favored class, and there is more than 1 level difference between them.
but now you are confusing Favored classes and xp-penalties. ECL is effective character level, true. Say, you are a Drow, it has ECL+2. What that means is that a Drow that is a level 1 fighter counts as being lvl 3. So he need s the same amount of xp that others need to become lvl4 to become lvl 2.
A Drow Wizard10/Rogue2 counts as being lvl 14. 12 class levels + 2 lvls from its ECL rating. The total ECL is 14. That affects xp received and such things, he counts as a lvl 14 character in every way, except when counting Hitdice, for resisting spells etc. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
That is correct. Ythaniel basically got it right, he just confused ECL with xp penalties. ECL determines your xp granted through combat successes based upon your effective character level. A Wizard4 would have an ECL of 2, so would receive xp as if he were a 2nd level fighter, while a Bard8 would have an ECL=4 (IIRC). Races and favored classes aren't figured into that equation, but after that equation. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Addressing some points brought up earlier by various people, but first:
This is a PvP build. It's main tactic is to use Cleric buffs to damage assist when applicable (darkfire mainly) and Extended Silence to cover the basically junk Move Silently skill.
: enter into stealth run around attack the first viable target you find use your 3 attack hasted dual weild volley run away enter stealth : repeat
if your 'well chosen' target has low fort, your 39 DC dev crit will kill them in one blow, otherwise you will still do a reasonable amount of damage before repeating again...and don't forget...EVERYBODY rolls 1s
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Monk levels are very useful for this as they allow you to move at speeds greater than your non-monk opponents, thus easily beating them to the "corner"
Quote: Posted 06/08/06 14:20:05 (GMT) -- Ythaniel This guy would get totally owned in like 2 hits by just about any big bruiser out there. 270 hp and only 30 AC? I think I'll take the other 'real' devastating rogue that bioware made.....
modified values of AB are buffed with basic Cleric buffs only, Divine Favor, Divine Power, etc...
If your big bruiser cannot detect 85 hide then he is not going to see until it is too late and he's been hit with a volley with a 15% chance of auto death!!!
Yes sneak attack would be nice, however Monk speed is more essential than anything else, oh & Cleric buff: Silence...oh and dual wield from Ranger...!!!
Oh, but your character does not perform in a Rogue-esque fashion because he lacks the skills. Besides, the point of the Devastating Rogue in the Epic Builds page is to have huge Sneak Attacks and Devastating Critical. Your build does not achieve this, and thus is definitely not the "real" Devastating Rogue.
How does it not perform in a Rogue-like fashion?
And how exactly do you perform in a Rogue like fashion in a PvP enviroment. Sneaking around stabbing people in the back seems very rogue-lie to me...and with the feat devastating critical also very devastating.
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this might not be the most elegant build ever to grace the scene's of the Epic Character Builders Guild, however it would easily kill a good deal of the builds here without even breaking a sweat!!!!
Quote: Posted 06/15/06 07:40:53 (GMT) -- krsboss
Addressing some points brought up earlier by various people, but first:
This is a PvP build. It's main tactic is to use Cleric buffs to damage assist when applicable (darkfire mainly) and Extended Silence to cover the basically junk Move Silently skill.
: enter into stealth run around attack the first viable target you find use your 3 attack hasted dual weild volley run away enter stealth : repeat
if your 'well chosen' target has low fort, your 39 DC dev crit will kill them in one blow, otherwise you will still do a reasonable amount of damage before repeating again...and don't forget...EVERYBODY rolls 1s
Do you realize that any build (with sneaking skills) can pull of corner-sneaking? It is usually frowned upon, too. But sure, great strategy _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
The thing with this build is, if you had named it properly (ie no mention of ROGUE) there would be no discussion on it at all. It is a typical DC build, no more no less. All this discussion about "rogue" is immaterial. I appreciate that you think you said this "is" a rogue, but I am certain to see that it clearly isnt what you said it is.
To be a rogue in NWN, you use the rogue class! Non of the combination of classes you picked up can replace the skill set for Rogue, so you are not! You are a cleric/ranger/monk who likes to lurk in the shadows, ambushing people cuz you dont have the face to face skill to stand toe to toe. Please understand, I am NOT saying your build is ineffective, it most certainly IS. But just because you sneak around doesnt make you a rogue! I know this is the point of this silliness!
How you rp a build is immaterial to this forum, UNLESS your rp AND classes make sense. In an rp sense, most certainly, a character with the strategy that you outline WILL be a rogue! They will LOVE the idea of sneak attacks! Most certainly, they would have LOTS of sneak damage to really make up for the fact that they lurk in shadows. All that was made is that you have forfieted lotsa sneak damage for basically nothing special.
Let me put it this way: IF i create a pure fighter with High AB (str) and DC, then walk up to someone who sees me and I swing my +10 greatsword of smiting silliness and he rolls a 1, does that make me a rogue? No. It makes me a DC fighter. This is what you are basically telling us.
For the second time in 2 days, I am moved to beg the question, WHY are we having such a long discussion about something so simple.
Edited By avado on 06/15/06 16:30
Quote: Posted 06/15/06 16:23:25 (GMT) -- avado
To be a rogue in NWN, you use the rogue class! Non of the combination of classes you picked up can replace the skill set for Rogue, so you are not! You are a cleric/ranger/monk who likes to lurk in the shadows, ambushing people cuz you dont have the face to face skill to stand toe to toe. Please understand, I am NOT saying your build is ineffective, it most certainly IS. But just because you sneak around doesnt make you a rogue! I know this is the point of this silliness!
Well, that's better than I ever could have said it.
Quote: Posted 06/15/06 16:23:25 (GMT) -- avado
For the second time in 2 days, I am moved to beg the question, WHY are we having such a long discussion about something so simple.
Such is the nature of man. _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
Indeed, let's drop the discussion about the roguish nature of this build and let's focus on its characteristics and potential improvements.
It would be wise for the OP to suggest a new, less controversial name maybe using a synonim of rogue (Devastating Rascal maybe? )
Cheers, Kail _________________ Looking for a realm of adventure? Check out World of Greyhawk, you won't regret it.
ZOMG I cannot believe that my build has been renamed.
It is not the Devastating Rascal...if the name I used misleads people then that is because of their own stupidity!
My original name did state that it had NO ROGUE levels so why was it changed.
Other people MAY speculate as to what may be a name for my build however it is not the name I gave it.
If I had wanted to call it the Devastating Rascal, Deviant Critter...or anything else I would have called as such...
Do suggest another name then, I'll edit it in. "The REAL Devastating Rogue (with no Rogue levels)" will not do however.
It's not a matter of people's stupidity. The original title and your comments regarding the Devastating Rogue are still in, so the connection you wanted to point at is left. Rogue is something very specific in NWN/D&D and this is no Rogue. It's neither the Devastating Rogue at all, since that is a well known build on the official Epic Builds page. The former title has both nothing to do with the build and it refers to another well known build with which, again it has nothing to do. Build a, I dunno, Rogue 24/FTR 6/CoT 10 and call it "The REAL Devastating Rogue" or "The Improved Devastating Rogue" and everything's fine. I could have called my Holy Reaper "The Playable Damage Adept" and it would have been fine (but I prefer to put such pointers in the description of the build). Even though there's much freedom regarding titles, your former one is not fine. I'm sorry you can't see it.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Heavy metal Or no metal at all Whimps and posers Leave the hall!
Do suggest another name then, I'll edit it in. "The REAL Devastating Rogue (with no Rogue levels)" will not do however.
Imho it should be the builder who names a build - even if the name seems to confuse some people. If someone wants a devastating rascal then make one but don't rename other people's builds. _________________ Character Build Calculator(works with Excel, Open Office) 2.83: updated to NWN 1.69.
It should also be noted that the OP didn't set precedent with this concept, that is, naming a build a "core class", and then not have that class present in the build. I recall Mithdradates having The Ultimate Dex Ranger, and yet, there was not one level of Ranger in the entire build. I'm sure there are others. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Okay, I think people are missing the point here. The name was an obvious reference to the BioWare Epic Build Devastating Rogue, however the build itself is nothing like it! The original Devastating Rogue is a Rogue-heavy build with a lot of Sneak Dice, skill points, Devastating Critical and Crippling Strike. This build doesn't even have Sneak Attacks and yet it was named "The REAL Devastating Rogue" or whatever it was -- that's ridiculous. This build has nothing to do with the Epic Builds page Devastating Rogue. Griz, wouldn't you think it blasphemous if someone posted a build called "The REAL Assassin King" which was a Cleric/Sorcerer/Ftr or some other abomination?
EOL as far as I'm concerned _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
[blah blah]Griz, wouldn't you think it blasphemous if someone posted a build called "The REAL Assassin King" which was a Cleric/Sorcerer/Ftr or some other abomination?
Not to imply this build is an abomination, mind _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Not really. I don't think there are any misconceptions about what the build is. It's a dev crit kukri-junkie that happens to call himself a rogue, yet no Rogue levels. I think we are all painfully aware of that by now. The issue, at least for me, is having a Moderator take the liberty to rename it because they find it disagreeable. Do I think it should be called the "REAL Devastating Rogue?" Unequivocally not. And while I would suggest to the OP to come up with a more fitting name, I would not change it without his consent to do so.
Is it misleading? Absolutely. Is it a poor choice in naming? Without a doubt. Should we bethump his Build thread with posts about how his Name choice is less than desirous? Incessantly. Would I want someone to appropriate a name from my build to suit their own build? Not ever. Would I not allow the allow OP to have a choice in the naming? Yes, I would, unequivocally, unless it were so distasteful as to violate the ethics of the Forums as a whole. It is my belief that any reasonable person will see the build title, then look at the build, and then shake their head and say, "Wait a minute! This isn't a Rogue. This isn't a Rogue at all!" and subsequently move on to their next search.
At the end of the day, it's about choice, lads, choice. Even if they be poor ones and ones we disagree with. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Finn clearly explains the main issue I see. I believe that point is clear so I won't go anymore into it.
I should have probably been clearer in asking krsboss to suggest a new title for the build, but the fact is that I did once suggest a change of title than the issue slipped my mind until I was deep into updating the index. I apologize if my approach seemed rude, it was not my intention.
To answer GD's issue: intentionally duplicating a well known build name in a build that bear no resemblance not even to the original build's concept is not just disagreeable on my side, it is unacceptable. It may not be written (yet) in the rules, but it's a matter of common sense. Moderator's job is to change such things; I expect any moderator to change an unproper format without asking the OP's permission, for example. I'm not trying to senselessy limit the freedom of choice of the OP here (or of anyone else for the matter), but to moderate "conflicting interests". In fact the connection the OP wanted with the Epic Builds page Devastating Rogue is left in there, at the very beginning of the post, for all to judge whether this build has anything to do with it.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Heavy metal Or no metal at all Whimps and posers Leave the hall!
Serioulsy what all you guys miss out is that unless you get +50 to skill points easily by items this build has the best stealth available for a dev sneaker . Ranger buffs to increase Hide (24 pts from buffs) + silence to be safe from any listeners.
It is the Real devastating Rogue because unlike the crappy build on the epic page it CAN hide from others. (it has been stated that this is a pvp only build ) The "build" on the epic page has an awful low hide and ms and everyone should be able to spot it quite easily,it has no speed and its ab is so low it needs to catchthe opponents ff'ed, thats why it is rather useless and sucks.
ITs a shame to see how a really great build gets teared apart by people that obvioulsy lack some knowledge when it comes to pvp and are more focused on PvM which is totally different.
In what way is this build teared apart? If he didn't want any suggestions I'm sure he'd have told us. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
It is the Real devastating Rogue because unlike the crappy build on the epic page it CAN hide from others. (it has been stated that this is a pvp only build ) The "build" on the epic page has an awful low hide and ms and everyone should be able to spot it quite easily,it has no speed and its ab is so low it needs to catchthe opponents ff'ed, thats why it is rather useless and sucks.
ITs a shame to see how a really great build gets teared apart by people that obvioulsy lack some knowledge when it comes to pvp and are more focused on PvM which is totally different.
Why on earth are we still talking about this! The name, devastating rogue is a bioware "hall of fame" build (what else do we call that list??) It IS a dev crit build WITH HUGE sneak attack. That is the bioware build concept! THis build is a dev critter with NO sneak damage. To quote:
Quote: Hail the Devastating Rogue. Unique, powerful, deadly. The rogue who specializes in raw power rather than in dexterity. This build makes an especially deadly warrior, and virtually anyone caught off-guard is almost certainly assured death. With a maximum of 84d6 sneak attack, high melee damage, and very likely devastating critical hits in his first attack maneuver, he is no laughing matter. Woe to the unwary who cross his path.
The uniqueness of this build is the fact that he can deal 84d6 sneak attack damage on his first attack phase, consisting of 3 attacks, if hasted. This is because of the 3 phases of combat per round of the NWN game engine, where attacks are divided into 3 parts, such that this character would get 3 attacks in the first phase (1st second), 2 attacks in the second phase (3rd second) and 2 attacks in the final phase (5th second).
I dont get your point at all. The real devastating rogue has NOTHING to do with stealth, with hiding. It is about IN your face combat. Again,
Quote: Hail the Devastating Rogue. Unique, powerful, deadly. The rogue who specializes in raw power rather than in dexterity. This build makes an especially deadly warrior, and virtually anyone caught off-guard is almost certainly assured death. With a maximum of 84d6 sneak attack, high melee damage, and very likely devastating critical hits in his first attack maneuver, he is no laughing matter. Woe to the unwary who cross his path.
Now, you and the builder of the dev rogue have different ideas on the effectiveness of his build and that is good.
The point the mod's are trying to make (I hope) is that, this was the CONCEPT of the builder of the devastating rogue. Like it or not, that is HIS right. TO post a build that has the intent of trying to put down another's IDEA isnt in the spirit of this guild. We are here (i hope) to help each other learn and improve our JOY of this game we all love.
Now I know that sometimes people get carried away and excited and we get posts that contain off topic suggestions (see my cleric/sd/wm build if you arent sure what it means to ignore the OP build) but in the end, its a game.
THe whole thing is this: in hind sight, vision is always 20/20. It is MUCH easier to look at someone else' idea and twink it than to create your own (for some of us). But do we want this forum to be a bunch of "get back at 'em" builds. You know, the "REAL" mage slayer (sorry tyr ) or the "true" sith lord (sorry highlander) or, heaven forbid (pun intended), "tyr's Improved Devastating Thud with a dagger!" (that's mine). All that the mods were trying to do is PREVENT all this (i hope).
Do i agree with the change? It doesnt matter. It is them who has to answer to bioware if things get out of hand (have you ever read those stickies at the top!! some of it is serious ).
And just so my position is perfectly clear, the word ROGUE (in nwn) does NOT mean stealth ONLY! It is a class, not a method of combat.
*now i take a bended knee and fold my hands* Let a higher power end this thread. PLEASE!
BTW, i do like bloodmerc's hint for a name: the Devastating corner Shadow Killer! But there would be no selling feature to that, and he'd have about 1000 looks with no posts cuz it would be true. In the end, the build is a VERY good one. We just all lost sight and got hung up on the details.
This post is for general information purposes only, and does not constitute a legal opinion or render any legal advice. It may not be relied on for any purpose, and gives rise to
Edited By avado on 07/28/06 05:39
Thanks for an excellent post Avado.
I will accept no further comment on this builds name in this thread, as explanations has been given and decisions made. If someone feel it must be discussed further, open a thread in general discussion. I hate to do this, but such it has become. That decisison is final.
Grim _________________
Quote: Posted 03/06/06 18:56:45 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ Trollborn Asgardian by the master of the Norse legends, Grimnir himself!
Serioulsy what all you guys miss out is that unless you get +50 to skill points easily by items this build has the best stealth available for a dev sneaker . Ranger buffs to increase Hide (24 pts from buffs) + silence to be safe from any listeners.
It is the Real devastating Rogue because unlike the crappy build on the epic page it CAN hide from others. (it has been stated that this is a pvp only build ) The "build" on the epic page has an awful low hide and ms and everyone should be able to spot it quite easily,it has no speed and its ab is so low it needs to catchthe opponents ff'ed, thats why it is rather useless and sucks.
ITs a shame to see how a really great build gets teared apart by people that obvioulsy lack some knowledge when it comes to pvp and are more focused on PvM which is totally different.
Thank you...I rest my case!
There is little point in making a sneaker that can be seen.
As I stated in my original post, sneaking, corner sneaking ( CSing ) does not work in enviroments where True Seeing has not been altered. Luckily in most PvP enviroments the spell (at best) gives a bouns to spot.
Sacrificing Rogue levels was a descision I made with the build such that it could get silence and try to avoid detection as much as possible.
It may not have been the most acceptable name that I decided upon, however I truely believe that in all fashions it IS more of a devastating rogue than the bioware build!
It may not have uber sneak attacks (any for that matter) but it can do something that the other build cannot...hit it's targets & hide from them as well.
In fact it has higher detect than the Devastating Rogue' hide / ms AND higher hide / ms than the Devastating Rogue's detect. Not to mention the fact that monk speed not only gives it higher FF AC, but also the ability to run away, hide and come back before the Devastating Rogue has moved anywhere....oh and not to mention it can Haste itself & make itself invisible...these factors in my opinion make it the REAL Devastating Rogue even though it has no Rogue levels.
(Well, it does in a strange way, but that's immaterial 
)
). 