The Dragon Slayer is playable level 1-40, PvM/Single-Player, and in PvP environments where dragon-kin are permitted to roam free.
"He who fights too long against dragons becomes a dragon himself; and if you gaze too long into the abyss, the abyss will gaze into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The Dragon Slayer – by Deborah Tyr
Overview: Paladin (9), Bard (21), Red Dragon Disciple (10)
Starting Race: Human (Half-Human, Half-Drake)
Alignment: Start: Lawful Good Finish: Neutral Good HPs: 460 (+26-30 Singing)
SPELL CASTING: • Bard Spells: Level 6 o SR 21 + 1d20
o Bard Spell Casting per Day (or rest period): o 1st Level – 5 Spells (Protection, Grease, Balagarn’s Horn, Mage Armor, +1 More) o 2nd Level –5 Spells (Eagle’s Splendor, Bull’s Strength, Owl’s Wisdom, Cat’s, +1) o 3rd Level – 5 Spells (Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Keen Edge, Curse, +1 More) o 4th Level – 5 Spells (War Cry, Improved Invisibility, +3 More) o 5th Level – 5 Spells (Ethereal Visage, Mind Fog, Greater Dispelling, +2 More) o 6th Level – 4 Spells (Ice Storm, Dirge, Energy Buffer, +1 More)
• Paladin Spells: Level 2 o 1st Level – 2 Spells (Divine Favor, Bless) o 2nd Level – Open (1 available with any +2 wis item): Aid or Aura of Glory
• Also Skilled in the Use of Magical Devices (UMD)/Spellcraft
FINAL SKILLS (233 points): Concentration 40 (43) Discipline 42 (54) Perform 43(48) Spellcraft 43(45) Tumble 40(39) UMD 15(20) Lore 8(31) * Bard Song: adds +7 (+9) to all skills, see below.
OTHER DAMAGE-TYPES:
• PALADIN: o Smite Evil, Sonic Damage (Smiting AB: adds *Cha-bonus to AB: as above, +5 (+9 Self-Buffed); Sonic Damage: as above, +9 Damage (for Paladin Level) ; o Lay-on-Hands, Positive Energy Damage [*Cha-bonus (*9)x9 (or, 81 total)]
• DRAGON: o Breath Weapon, Fire (6d10 Fire Damage (or, 60 total), Cone Effect)
OTHER USEFUL INFORMATION:
* Combat AB: at “the Cap” (+12 STR): +49 (non-buffed); +65-plus (Self-Buffed Only) * CHA-Bonus (Divine): at “the Cap” (+12 CHA): +11 (non-buffed); +15 (Self-Buffed)
Bard Song/Curse Song: • Bard Song - at Level 21 Bard (48 Perform): Inspires self and all allies in area of effect (30’ area), as follows: o +2 AB, +3 Dam., +2 Fort, +3 Will, +2 Reflex, +7 Skills, +5 AC, +25 HPs (temp.)
• Curse Song – at Level 21 Bard (55 Perform, i.e., +7 Skill (song buffed)): Weakens all enemies within area of effect (30’ area), as follows: o -2 AB, -3 Dam., -2 Fort, -3 Will, -2 Reflex, -9 Skills, -5 AC, and -30 HPs (damage)
WHAT FOLLOWS is the EPIC PATH of the DRAGON SLAYER, during the first 40 levels of his/her career:
08: Paladin(8): CHA+1, (CHA=15) * Start the Process of Switching Alignment, here 09: Paladin(9): divine might * After Leveling, must complete alignment change
10: Bard(1): 11: Red Dragon Disciple(1) 12: Red Dragon Disciple(2): CHA+1, blind fight –OR- still spell, (STR=19), (CHA=16) 13: Red Dragon Disciple(3) 14: Red Dragon Disciple(4): (STR=21) 15: Bard(2): curse song 16: Red Dragon Disciple(5): CHA+1, (CHA=17) 17: Bard(3) 18: Red Dragon Disciple(6): improved critical 19: Red Dragon Disciple(7): (CON=16) 20: Red Dragon Disciple(8): STR+1, (STR=22) 21: Red Dragon Disciple(9): epic weapon focus, (INT=14) 22: Red Dragon Disciple(10): {Darkvision}, (STR=26), (CHA=19) 23: Bard(4) 24: Bard(5): STR+1, epic prowess, (STR=27) 25: Bard(6) 26: Bard(7) 27: Bard(8): great strength I, (STR=28) 28: Bard(9): CHA+1, (CHA=20) 29: Bard(10) 30: Bard(11): great strength II, (STR=29) 31: Bard(12) 32: Bard(13): STR+1, (STR=30) 33: Bard(14): great strength III, (STR=31) 34: Bard(15) 35: Bard(16) 36: Bard(17): STR+1, great strength IV, (STR=33) 37: Bard(18) 38: Bard(19) 39: Bard(20): lasting inspiration 40: Bard(21): STR+1, (STR=34)
Tip: Bard Ability-Stat Boosts (2nd Level Spells) are very long-lasting (1 hr/level). Thus, make sure to buff yourself before adventuring (or after any rest period), and you’ll enjoy all these buffs, including: increased smiting power, self-healing/positive energy damage, and spells.
"Come not between the dragon, and his wrath." - William Shakespeare, King Lear
Edited title to add new account name - Kail Pendragon
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 06/12/06 22:26
Thar be Dragons: The Tale of the Dragon Slayer By Deborah Tyr
A long time ago, on a tiny blue planet called Earth, before the human-kin, there lived the dragons. Gold ones, red ones, black, green and blue, their colors and alignments all represented, like stings of varying colors and intensity, which come together to make up the rainbow. These dragons fought amongst themselves, some for wisdom, others for hunting grounds, with others still fighting for gold; neither good nor evil in the truest sense were the dragon-kin, in whom all the alignments were represented, with the differences bringing balance into the world, and thus being necessary. The dragon wars raged on for centuries, and then, one day, there suddenly came human-kin.
It is said, in ancient Chinese scripture, that a demi-goddess, being half-goddess, and half-drake, is responsible for the appearance of the human-kin, whom she created secretly one day while sun basking near a river bank, in accordance with a secret recipe known only to the god-kin. The creation lore of the North American Indians teaches us that it was a raven who was responsible for human kin; on the other hand, and the Ancient Chinese would not necessarily disagree, so far as it was believed that dragons were shape-shifters, taking any form they pleased, with many enjoying the bird form. It is a difficult question, for which the likes of human kin may never know the answer, other than that, as humans, we think, and therefore we are. And yet, that the dragons roamed the ancient world, what we now think of as dinosaurs, lends credence to these stories.
What we know from these ancient stories is that the dragon, whatever its form, was a wise and magical beast, which are said to have visited a number of ancient Chinese philosophers. These dragons appeared out of curiosity, as they were curious to find out more about these new beasts called humans. On finding that the human kin could think and speak, these dragons were delighted, with some generously sharing their teachings. Some of these dragon teachings, it is further said, found its way into the ancient book of Confucius, whose own learned readings, some say, included some ancient writings drafted by those while keeping the company of a dragon. Whether or not a dragon is responsible for some of the Confucians’ thinking, we may never know. But we do know from Ancient Europe that this friendship between the dragons and man-kin was sparse at best, and at worse non-existent. In short, most dragons did not like this new beast called man-kin, whom they saw as a threat, taking over their lands and hunting grounds, always sneaking off with their gold, and constantly insisting on interrupting their peaceful dragon songs. No, to interrupt dragon music, regardless of a dragon’s alignment, was to a dragon an utter sin: as a result, a great number of dragons detested the man-kin. While many went out of their way to avoid humans entirely, others were bent on destroying him. And yet, the dragon wars raged on, with whole towns and villages destroyed in the process; puny humans. In the dragon wars, there were many human casualties.
At least this was the relationship between humans and dragons as seemed to exist in Old Europe, in that part of the world now known as Great Britain, which suffered a peculiar dragon infestation problem. There, a long time ago, it was taken as a scientific fact that dragons were a constant menace to human society, being responsible for every disaster, from geysers and poisonous gas, to earthquakes and forest fires: science was certain that it was dragons who were responsible for all the chaos in nature, and that dragons were out to destroy humans; although few who ever encountered a real, live dragon lived to tell the tale, there were survivors of the dragon wars. Be they innocent villagers whose entire village had just been destroyed by dragon quake or dragon fire, or brave and noble knights who made it their life’s mission to save human-kind by chasing after the dragon beasts, there were Britons who did not need science to confirm what they had witnessed with their own eyes: thar be beasts roaming about the lands, and those beasts be dragons.
One of these survivors was the Dragon Slayer, a brave and noble knight, specially commissioned by the King to hunt down the dragons. Wherever they struck, wherever they roamed, the Dragon Slayer was out to protect the people, and secure justice for the land. He was a hero of the people, a legendary knight, and his appearance alone gave the people hope, where they had none before. The Dragon Slayer was their champion and, when he fought, he fought with all the hope and the prayers of the people: they were in his heart, as he was in theirs. Their thoughts and their prayers were at all times with him. And for the people, he delivered: slaying dragons all about the lands. Big ones, little ones, red, green, and blue: he did it for the people. His name was shouted all across the land, a hero he was, and the people loved him for it. But the dragons knew of him, too.
One day, while the Dragon Slayer was camping out in the woods on a dragon hunt, an ancient red dragon came upon him and knew instantly who he was. In one foul breath of fire, the ancient red blew, and then swallowed up the Dragon Slayer whole, including his tent: an evil red, for sure, but by no means stupid.
Gasping for breath, and rudely awoken from his rest, confused, the Dragon Slayer had but a few seconds to react, before becoming a pile of dragon goo. Quick thinking, the Dragon Slayer pulled out a blade, a tiny dagger, from his breaches, and set quickly to work. With great strength and tenacious ferocity, the Dragon Slayer slashed at the Dragon’s innards, and with a great gush of blood pouring forth from the Dragon, the Dragon Slayer managed to cut his way through. The evil red was dumb founded and confused, seriously wounded; it hesitated, not knowing exactly what to do.
Reaching, quickly, for his blade, which he had hung earlier that evening in a tree before turning in, the Dragon Slayer reacted. With thundering speed, great strength and precision, the Dragon Slayer’s blade came crashing down upon the evil red’s throat, and in an instant, it was over. The red came crashing to the ground, dead, its blood flowing, like a river, and splattering the Dragon Slayer thoroughly. Although he had been victorious, yet another dragon downed by his blade, another notch for his belt, the Dragon Slayer also fell to the ground, exhausted and burned, and covered in dragon blood. He could barely breathe.
No one knows exactly how much time passed while the Dragon Slayer lay out in the woods, but many say that the ordeal changed the Dragon Slayer forever. Some say that the great and legendary Dragon Slayer died that day; others insist that that’s simply not true. What is known is that the effects of the dragon blood is magical, filled with potent properties, and that such properties worked their magic on the Dragon Slayer, bringing him back to life from the brink of exhaustion, by mixing in with his own blood, and in short, rearranging his molecular structure. One day, awoken from his woodland sleep, he heard music: dragon music, and was surprised to see that he could not only breathe fire, but had also sprouted wings; dragon fire and dragon wings. Born of the human kin, he was now dragon kin; half-human, half-drake. Where his adventures next took him, no one can be certain: that he’s still out there, somewhere, slaying the evil dragons, in between his new ability to hear and perform the dragons’ song is, however, what some believe.
The next time you look to the sky, and see a bird singing in the tree, you might reflect upon this story, and ask yourself the following question: is that bird, up there in the tree, is it really just a bird singing, or be it a dragon, perhaps even the Dragon Slayer, trying to speak?
Added bolding - Kail Pendragon
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 06/11/06 09:06
NOTE: This is the condensed version of the above story (post no. 2, which follows immediately after the build itself). The full-version of this tale is full of information regarding dragon history and lore, whereas this version simply focuses on the Dragon-Slayer.
The Tale of the Dragon Slayer (Condensed Version) By Deborah Tyr
A long time ago, in a part of the world now known as Great Britain, there was suffered a dragon infestation. Dragons were blamed for all the chaos in nature, and it was believed that dragons were out to destroy humans. Few who encountered a live dragon lived to tell the tale, but there were survivors of the dragon wars. Be they innocent villagers whose entire village had just been destroyed by dragon quake or dragon fire, or brave and noble knights who made it their life’s mission to save human-kind by chasing after the dragon beasts, there were Britons who witnessed these beasts with their own eyes: thar be dragons, indeed.
One of these brave and noble knights was the Dragon Slayer, of noble blood and kind of heart, who was specially commissioned by the King to hunt down the dragons. Wherever they struck, wherever they roamed, the Dragon Slayer was out to protect the people, and secure justice for the land. He was a hero of the people, a legendary knight, and his appearance alone gave the people hope, where they had none before. The Dragon Slayer was their champion and, when he fought, he fought with all the hope and the prayers of the people: they were in his heart, as he was in theirs. And for the people, he delivered: slaying dragons all about the lands.
Big ones, little ones, red, green, and blue: he did it for the people. His name was shouted all across the land, a hero he was, and the people loved him for it. But the dragons knew of him, too.
One day, while the Dragon Slayer was camping out in the woods on a dragon hunt, an ancient red dragon came upon him and knew instantly who he was. In one foul breath of fire, the ancient red blew, and then swallowed up the Dragon Slayer whole, including his tent: an evil red, for sure, but by no means stupid.
Gasping for breath, and rudely awoken from his rest, confused, the Dragon Slayer had but a few seconds to react, before becoming a pile of dragon goo. Quick thinking, the Dragon Slayer pulled out a blade, a tiny dagger, from his breaches, and set quickly to work.
With great strength and tenacious ferocity, the Dragon Slayer slashed at the Dragon’s innards, and with a great gush of blood pouring forth from the Dragon, the Dragon Slayer managed to cut his way through. The evil red was dumb founded and confused, seriously wounded; it hesitated, not knowing exactly what to do.
Reaching, quickly, for his blade, which he had hung earlier that evening in a tree before turning in, the Dragon Slayer reacted. With thundering speed, great strength and precision, the Dragon Slayer’s blade came crashing down upon the evil red’s throat, and in an instant, it was over. The red came crashing to the ground, dead, its blood flowing, like a river, and splattering the Dragon Slayer thoroughly. Although he had been victorious, yet another dragon downed by his blade, another notch for his belt, the Dragon Slayer also fell to the ground, exhausted and burned, and covered in dragon blood. He could barely breathe.
No one knows exactly how much time passed while the Dragon Slayer lay out in the woods, but many say that the ordeal changed the Dragon Slayer forever. Some say that the great and legendary Dragon Slayer died that day; others insist that that’s simply not true. What is known is that the effects of the dragon blood is magical, filled with potent properties, and that such properties worked their magic on the Dragon Slayer, bringing him back to life from the brink of exhaustion, by mixing in with his own blood, and in short, rearranging his molecular structure.
One day, awoken from his woodland slumber, he heard music: dragon music, and was surprised to see that he could not only breathe fire, but had also sprouted wings; dragon fire and dragon wings. Born of the human kin, he was now dragon kin; half-human, half-drake. Where his adventures next took him, no one can be certain: that he’s still out there, somewhere, slaying the evil dragons, in between performing his dragon song is what the people believe.
Added bolding and italics - Kail Pendragon
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 06/11/06 09:07
About time you made us a story, Deb, good job.
Hm, you have to choose either Blindfight OR still spell. Well, i feel BF quite essential in a melee build, so I would sacrifice Toughness, actually. It would be a pain to see 40 hitpoints go, but it would perhaps be more essential to not be able to recast Imp Invis in mid-combat perhaps. I don't know. I would sacrifice Toughness, but I know some would sacrifice, like you perhaps, still spell.
Rock on, Debert. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Teh awesome story.
I like the build, but I have to agree that 40 HP isn't quite as important and blind fight or still spell. _________________ CATS!
Blindfight definitely isn't optional. I'd consider dropping improved critical for it, as a bard you'll have keen edge to fill the same role.
Finally you might want to consider starting with a 15 strength and 14 int, instead of 16 and 12. Then in epic levels drop one of the great strength feats for armor skin. You lose 2 strength for 1 AB and damage, gain 2 int and 40 skillpoints and 2 AC. Not the biggest change in the world and not really necessary as your AC's not critically low, but an option nonetheless, and may be particularly attractive to people who like having lots of skills. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Blindfight definitely isn't optional. I'd consider dropping improved critical for it, as a bard you'll have keen edge to fill the same role.
But they stack. But agreed, BF isn't really optional
Quote: Finally you might want to consider starting with a 15 strength and 14 int, instead of 16 and 12. Then in epic levels drop one of the great strength feats for armor skin. You lose 2 strength for 1 AB and damage, gain 2 int and 40 skillpoints and 2 AC.
Actually, it's 43. That's definitly worth. Damn, didn't see that one.
Quote: Not the biggest change in the world and not really necessary as your AC's not critically low, but an option nonetheless, and may be particularly attractive to people who like having lots of skills.
Like me for example. Good catch there. _________________
Quote: Posted 03/06/06 18:56:45 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ Trollborn Asgardian by the master of the Norse legends, Grimnir himself!
Hello, everyone! As always, some very interesting suggestions here
First off, thanks for all the great compliments on this one; coming from all of you, and Finn & Kail etc. on the prior version of this character, well, that's just wonderful. Thank you. So glad everyone likes him
Secondly, I'm really glad that all of you like the accompanying story; it took a bit, but wanted it to be a special one, for all of you and the players out there. Dragons and dragon-slayers, well, what's not to love? Seriously, thank you.
Alright, now back to the build, and some of those most interesting suggestions:
a. BF - a good observation; I toiled over that, and concluded that with War Cry, Curse Song, all those other great Bard spells (ie., Ice Storm, not to mention Improved Invisibility), and the dragon fire, that for PvM, BF while nice, wasn't absolutely necessary; on the other hand, you all make a very good point (I know, can hear you thinking, between the lines you're talking PvP (yep, must be that dragon song - where sneakers etc. may be crawling about; true, can fire all of these and imp.invis., too, but if this character's to be a strong first line of defense, in PvP, it would be kinda odd to run away and fire off imp.invis. Come back to this in a sec
b. Still Spell - could drop it, and on other bards I've created, at the lower levels (ie., for great buffs & war cry only), that feat isn't really necessary. However, on this character, at 21 bard, full spell complemented, and LI, still spell is much more integral to this build. Removing armor to buff before combat, on for e.g. a lower level bard, isn't a problem at all; but to fire off those great combat spells etc. on this one, that still spell feat is not really optional.
Thus, the choice - BF or SS, leaving it to players (i like SS here, but BF . . . .
One of the prime considerations for this character, the Dragon Slayer, is that he can deliver so many different types of damage: physical, fire, cold, bludgeoning, sonic, etc. Concept being he fights all the diff. dragons, with their immunities and vulnerablities being very different from each other, reds immune to fire, vuln. to cold, and the opposite for blues, for instance, makes these different damage types so important (applies equally to other characters/creatures, too
AB/AC: c. Ah, but yes, the AB issue -- you know, once it gets up to the 60s without equipment, as it does here (didn't factor some of the extra pally stuff, such as smiting etc., nor are these numbers adjusted to account for the Curse Song's effect on enemyy armor (which in turn also boosts AB, but I didn't factor it in; the numbers are just the naked stats and self-buffs, no other or any adjustments) . . . really, it becomes, well, kinda cheesy, as the 50s pretty much ensure without more that you're gonna hit; looks nice though, doesn't it? LOL
But you're right, at these numbers, it's nuts. Even AC, at 29 unbuffed AC with mundane plate (+3 shield, but don't recommend the use of one), self-buffed up to around the 50s, as much as I love AS (hey, +2 is +2 Again, not necessary for PvM and very acceptable for PvP, but .... (+2 is +2
Tough call - went for the extra AB, but if we bring it down by just one, to +42 unbuffed (right back up buffed), not gonna make any difference really, that is true. Then, we would gain +2 to AC and for PvP, I've always said (and totally agree with all of you) that, it's true, there's no such thing as to much AC.
But this still leaves the BF vs. SS issue: Toughness, although a great feat, and one I'm usually sold on for melee, isn't really integral here, in light of 21 Bard, and lasting impression. His singing will bring 30 HPs right back, and of course, with BF, SS and AS . . .
(Hey, I'm hearing ya, very good points all!!!).
ps. has anyone noticed I tend to think out loud? LOL (really, love the brain-storming that goes on here; that makes all of this so much fun, and then there's those stories
OK, let me cash it out, see what it looks like, and will report back; as to extra skills, hmmmm, I know they're fun, and do try to accomodate as many as possible in most other bard builds (yep, options and accessories, you know I'm sold Here, not necessarily sold on that, in terms of this build; was more aiming for the diff. dam. types, but if I were to raise skills, would toss 'em into Spot or listen (could equally throw 'em into Heal, being pally and all, saving on some of those potion costs, which is very practical).
OK, will be back ..... (always, appreciated!
Deborah Tyr
hey, Grimm: thought we settled on 'robo'
Actually, an announcement is in order, as to the name thing - it's in the process, as we speak, of being changed - the "new me" so to speak is to be TyrTemplar; keeping the Tyr, but dropping the Robert (way, way too confusing .... so, the Robert Tyr is soon to be dead; long live the TyrTemplar
Edited By Robert Tyr on 06/10/06 23:26
Hey, everyone. OK, crunched some numbers and must say, the polish, as usual, just so darn good here Xylo, your point on skills, actually . . . .
you know, toss it into taunt (as I usually do with me bards), as Grim pointed out in other builds, that's another +5 or so to AB (I only counted in taunt once, in a bard build, but put it at a low +2; this, to factor in probabilities and all, notwithstanding war cry and curse song which helps, but still . . .). Here, however, as a 21st level bard, +7 (+9) to skills from song, and -9 to foes' skills with the curse song, extra skills (i.e., taunt) really does make a lot of sense. That dragon song, seems to be getting louder
As Cinn and Mith have pointed out in various builds, melee types don't max out their concentration and, even for slingers who do, the effects of a high level bard song/curse song still make sense. Really, that is great advice re: skills, will push AB far beyond the one point we're talking about, and just makes plain old good sense. Great thinking! (thanks).
AB - will be raised as a result of the great advice re: taunt, etc. AC - will be raised w. AS SS - will be kept toughness - in? out? in? out? (still considering) more skills - for sure
stay tuned, folks (you know, I'm so glad I put all that effort into the story - you guys, all this great advice and interest, such great polish, you know you earned it Thanks so much again, and will repost soon ~ Tyr
Edited By Robert Tyr on 06/11/06 02:36
The real benefit - as we've noticed - of doing the 15 str/14 int thing is the extra skill it lets you max, not the 2 AC from armor skin. The 2 AC is more like a way to make the loss of strength hurt less.
Improved crit and keen edge do stack, and this build can get some good damage out on a crit, but it's no blind-fighting and the character's already using a greatsword for a 19-20 threat range. Improved crit would probably make more of a difference if you went the heavy flail or greataxe routes, ie, weapons with a 20 threat range and x3 modifier.
And a quick edit - I'd drop owl's wisdom out of your spell list, you can't buff into memorizing spells as a paladin because when you rest the buff wears off and you automatically forget the spell. You have to have an item boost.
Take Darkness (can be cast in combat without Still) and Ultravision (cast out of combat) instead for a nice tactical advantage. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Edited By Xylophone on 06/11/06 07:56
I like the build, head the suggestions already given. I'm for dropping toughness and get both BF and SS.
The short essay is simply amazing, well done Deborah. I might need your help with something of mine one day
Kudos to the Dragon Slayer and to his new life as a dragon kin!
Cheers, Kail _________________ Wait for me Dragon, we'll meet in the sky By fire and magic, I'm sworn Hell is calling, we cannot be denied Fly to the blackness of the Storm
We must die to be reborn!
If a 17-20 crit range is deemed enough, then one is assuming you'll mostly be up against opponents that you can only hit on 20's with all but you best attack. And in that case, take the greataxe and take IC anyhow. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Hey, everyone :
Oh, what a great team of advisors I must say; talk about consensus-building (you know, makes me think, all those world leaders, really, some should really listen to their advisors, with others badly needing new ones . . .
thinking, we've two equally good options:
Option 1: what if we keep strength where it is (34 is kinda nice, no? cap thus being 46). With keen edge we double the crit, and w. 460 HPs unbuffed, we can afford to drop toughness so as to fit both SS and BF - yeah, I hate losing 40 HPs, too But bard song brings back all but 10 of em so that it hurts much less - With this, could keep the greatsword or switch to the great axe...
Option 2: taunt would be nice, too. . .So the stat changes, to drop str., raise int, and max out taunt, then taking BF instead of toughness, keeping SS and taking AS in Epic, -
as much as skills would be nice, I really do hate to lose str and hps, 'specially when he can buff up his AC into the 50s-zone but BF does for all the reasons you folks pointed out make sense; so, I'm leaning toward option 1, to let us do this, while keeping his STR . . .
(arrr . . . .options, options
Option 1 or Option 2: would love to hear if there's a consensus, as to which of the two (and then, I'll build it; such a great team, indeed!)
Deborah Tyr (as in TyrTemplar
PS. Kail, great to see ya! So glad you like the dragon story, and appreciate the italics/bolding - looking good! Thanks, and for sure, would love to collaborate with you! - anytime: you betcha!
COMBAT STATISTICS (mundane great sword, illustrative): Base (BAB, Naked): 27, AB: +42/+37/+32/+27 (non-buffed) / AB: +57 (58) (Self-Buffs, No Equipment) Other Modifications: Curse Song (+5 AB), Taunt (+5 AB), (or, AB +68-plus, as adjusted). * Does not include Smiting AB or any other enhancements.
Damage (Mundane Great Sword, illustrative): 2-12, +*STR mod. (crit. 17-20/x2) (15-20 w. keen edge) +13-plus Bard Buffs (Song/Spell) +10-12-plus Paladin Divine/Spell Buffs* Haste: extra attack = double damage
Note (1): Damage Calculation Does Not include Smiting Bonus. Note (2): Great Sword used for illustrative purposes; a Great Axe would be a good option, too.
note: ordinarily, I don't include the taunt effects in AB stats; here, I put it under "other considerations" in rhis build, however, in light of the fact that, at 21 level bard, with high level bard song and curse song, it's like having ESF: taunt almost times two for free (thus making it a proper subject to consider
Option 1 is self-explanatory; however, in consideration of all your great advice (and looking at those skills), definitely thinking Option 2!
Thoughts? Comments?
Edited By TyrTemplar on 06/11/06 23:37
Hey, guys: retesting/playing this character, for option 2, and another tweak came to mind - if we drop bard to level 20, thus bring in one more RDD before moving around the bard, intermittently, we may gets are AB 43 back (unbuffed) - i.e., before level 20, where it matters not really what one classes as True, pally/divine buffs are nice, and there if ya needs 'em, but unlike bard boosts, with only a +5 cha bonus and 9 pally levels, the divines aren't very long lasting.
OK, bard song/curse song - will lose 2 hps (28 not 30), skills up to +7 (and curse -7) insead of the +/-9. As such, taunt DC falls a bit too, to ESF and-a-half (or 7 curse + 7 song); on the other hand, we gain 6 permanent HPs (OK, a far cry from those we lost as a result of dropping toughness. (I'd be lying if I said that didn't hurt ). But, with AC raised, more skills, and if we can keep unbuffed AB where it was (while retaining access to long-lasting Bard buffs and LI, and having both BF and SS in the build, a fair trade off (nice calls)
We keep imp crit, totally agreed with you Gimm that it's important, and with bard keen, it stacks. And we've kept SS while bringing in BF . . .
plus, Xylo, more skills for you
will try to repost the new version today, when I finish testing/building it properly; flying to Vancouver for a meeting, so if I don't gets to it today, will do so upon return
....and now, credit to my advisory coach team, a most talented group, must go out to . . . (thanks guys). Have a great week if I don't manage to get back here today; and see everyone soon )Stay Tuned (gonna figure this out ~ Deborah Tyr
Edited By TyrTemplar on 06/12/06 19:18
Just thought I'd report back before flying off, not to leave anyone hanging or anything
Think Option 2, as is above, with 21 bard as posted, is our best option. Without bringing in another alignment change (not too popular), or dropping cha in favor of str, ie., to get it from ab +42 to 43 (unbuffed)(from 49 to 50 Bulls/GMW) also likely not too popular; if we did this, for +1 AB, we'd in turn drop divine might/shield from +5 to +4, perhaps not a big deal, but would lose some lay-on-hands (heal/positive energy dam.), a couple of bard spells and some curse song/bard song power - for 2 STR and only +1 AB, you're right, just doesn't seem worth it (especially with BF and SS both in the build, and extra skills).
One thing that is worth pointing out/changing would be the option to take toughness instead of armor skin, by leaving it as a choice for players to make in the event of low HP rolls. While +2 AC from AS is nice, may prefer the HPs, depending on the rolls; plus, high level curse song, in effect, by lowering enemy AB (-2) in turn raises AC (+2), but this perhaps is better left as a choice for player's to make (and wait, there's more...., seems you've successfully convinced me as to UMD, which playing it through I can very much see also helps
Accordingly re: UMD, with a bit more mini-tweaking, also managed to raise UMD (with bard song, I managed to get a few more points there, such that it will now be UMD 23 (+7 (+9) Song, for a total of 30 - or, higher than it was before, while pretty much keeping everything else maxed out, including taunt
OK, will repost, as stated on my return, but thought I should report back on that. Unless I've missed something (totally possible, in which case feel free to point it out Otherwise, we're def. going with Option 2, with only the above noted minor mini-tweaks stated herein (thanks again, and stay tuned) ~ Tyr
Edited By TyrTemplar on 06/13/06 03:27
And now, as promised, and without any further delay, here is *the* Dragon Slayer, with more skills, including Taunt, better UMD, and other tweaks as are explained and discussed, above. My apologies once again for the delay, and trust everyone will have fun with this character, as revised. Special thanks going out once more to all who commented - Enjoy!
The Dragon Slayer: (Final, v. 1.2 (as revised)) Paladin(9), Bard(21), Red Dragon Disciple(10)
Starting Race: Human / Ending: Half Human, Half Dragon Starting Alignment: Lawful Good / Ending: Neutral Good
COMBAT STATISTICS (mundane great sword, illustrative): Base (BAB, Naked): 27, AB: +42 (non-buffed) / AB: +58 (Self-Buffs, No Equipment) Other Modifications: Curse Song (+5 AB), Taunt (+5 AB), (or, AB +68-plus, as adjusted). * Does not include Smiting AB, or any other enhancements; does not include any Equipment.
Damage (Mundane Great Sword, illustrative): 2-12, +*STR mod. (crit. 17-20/x2) (15-20 w. keen edge) +13-plus Bard Buffs (Song/Spell) +10-12-plus Paladin Divine/Spell Buffs* Haste: extra attack = double damage
Note (1): Damage Calculation Does Not include Smiting Bonus/Sonic or Any Other Damage Enhancements. Note (2): Great Sword used for illustrative purposes; a Great Axe would be a good option, too.
DEFENSE STATISTICS: AC (naked): 21 / AC (mundane plate only): 29 / AC (mundane plate & shield only): 32 AC Enhancements: AC 44 (Bard Buffs Only), +5 (+7) Divine Shield (even higher with Aura of Glory) Total AC (as enhanced): 49/51 plus * Note: Shield would add +3 AC, but doesn’t seem to need a shield.
Final Skills (276 points): Concentration 40(43) Discipline 39(50) Lore 8(32) Perform 43(48)(*55 Singing) Spellcraft 43(46) Taunt 43(48) (*+7 (+9) Bard Song & +9 Curse Song) Tumble 40(39) UMD 18(23) (*30+ Singing) •Bard Song: adds +7 (+9) to ALL skills; •Curse Song: has opposite effect on foes in area of effect (30’ area).
SPELL Casting: Bard Level 6 (full complement) Paladin Level 2 (2 spells at level 1; level 2 open, w. 1 spell available via any +2 wis boost) For more information regarding the availability/number of Bard & Paladin Spells available to the Dragon Slayer, and for recommendations as to the spells’ list, see above (& commentary thereon).
Other Information:
Bard Song/Curse Song: For information as to the full effects of the Bard Song/Curse Song, see above.
Other Damage (Types): For information as to the Various Other Damage Types Available to the Dragon Slayer (i.e., Ice Storm (Bludgeoning & Cold), Breath Weapon (Fire), Smite Evil (Sonic), & Lay-on-Hands (Positive Energy), and statistics/damage calculations related thereto, see above.
What Follows is the Epic Path of the Dragon Slayer during the first 40 Levels of his/her career:
IMO Extend Spell is a lot more valuable than Still Spell.
Most of the Bard's usefull spells are 1 round / level duration + Warcry & Displacement are both Verbal only spells so can be cast whilst wearing armor.
It may be a pain to have to de-suit to rebuff, however Displacement is far better than II (duration aside) as it cannot be purged!
Hey, KRS - appreciate you dropping by.
Your comment re: extend spell is a valid observation, as some of the Bard's spells would be more valuable if of course they lasted longer, yet, at the same time, other Bard spells are made valuable by still spell. Both feats are nice, but I personally like II and thus chose SS; but that's not to say that ES wouldn't be good also: I know, if only we had one more feat slot, just one
That having been said, if you don't like II and certain other spells as much as I do, then, by all means, take ES instead, as it would permit another style of play as you suggest (and good point). True, some may see it as a pain to have to desuit to rebuff all those great level 2 bard buffs, but these buffs are very long lasting (1 hour per level), such that it would be no problem really at all since, with 21 levels of bard, the buff's duration of 21 hours essentially means that you only need rebuff once a day (or per rest period); while some may find it a pain to desuit once a day, I agree with you totally that it really isn't at all; so, good point, with the choice as to ES or SS coming down to play style
Me, I like to know what I'm coming up against, and formulate a strategic plan of action accordingly, which II permits; but that's just me. Others have a different yet valid approach to the play, which of course I respect, and which ES may better accomodate (so very glad you dropped by, it's all good!
Edited By TyrTemplar on 06/20/06 20:16
Still Spell can also be activated on spells that are not affected by Extend Spell.
This is the case for instant damage spells if you want more of the same spell.
You can't extend a magic missile but you can "Still" it, thus having access to magic missile in lvl 1 slots AND MM in lvl 2 slots.
That is another reason to not overlook Still Spell.
Hey, Bromium: thanks for the comment; indeed, your analogy is a good one, and yeah, there are a great many reasons for taking SS, and reason why I did so. I highly recommend it, too. There are, however, some bard spells that don't need it this is true, and would benefit from extend, depending on what spells you're looking for; Xylo I think above makes a very good observation, as does KRS, as to some tactical spells that may benefit from ES, for instance (and definitely valid, but I also like the ones that require SS which in no way gets in the way of casting the other ones, regardless of duration).
My thought is, hey, I want both, right? But in the final analysis, myself, I do prefer SS, especially with epic level bard, and all those great spells to chose from (well, for a melee build anyway With RDd and pally divine also, what we're really after here is the curse/bard song, war cry, and the ability to inflict different types of damage; but the fact it's a melee that can sling? And that's all the more reason to enjoy SS; either way though, players are unique and have their own style, playing on different worlds, with different needs, and it's all good.
I'm gonna re-post this character, as revised, which is my usual custom, and thinking we might have a discussion as to spell lists or something of that nature when I do; again, I've my own particular favorites, but how wonderful is this discussion: very worthwhile, this way we can, if you'll indulge me, line 'em up so to speak and thus let players decide what feat they want, in accordance with what spells they want. Again, I've my faves and recommendations, but each world is different I well realize, making such a discussion me thinks a totally wonderful idea - thank you. Will repost the final 'final' version soon, and really look forward to carrying this on
Seriously, thank you. 
But bard song brings back all but 10 of em so that it hurts much less - With this, could keep the greatsword or switch to the great axe...
With RDd and pally divine also, what we're really after here is the curse/bard song, war cry, and the ability to inflict different types of damage; but the fact it's a melee that can sling? And that's all the more reason to enjoy SS; either way though, players are unique and have their own style, playing on different worlds, with different needs, and it's all good.