With my recent Knight of Bahamut build, this build was inevitable. I wanted to make use of the RDD strength bonus to create a build that got a warrior level AB with only 3 attacks, so that divine power could add another attack at the higher AB bonus. The build turns out very powerful, but virtually every incarnation of these classes ends up being very powerful. There are a few builds with this class distribution, but none of them get an AB this high and remain relatively undispellable. It's no good to spend 5 minutes buffing only have them all stripped by a scroll of greater dispel or MD. The build will do best in no to mid magic settings, and should remain competitive in higher magic settings (maybe up to +12 or around there).
This build is a testament to the disgusting synergy of power between the Cleric and the RDD, and the general lack of balance between classes. The cleric gets way too many powerful buffing spells (IMHO divine favor should not have been added and harm should have had a fortitude save), and the RDD (IMHO should not have been added in the expansions) gets 14 attribute boosts in 10 levels as well as 4 points of AC. On top of this, add in the Bard's skill list and it is difficult not to get an obscenely powerful character with this class combo.
I chose War domain for Cat's Grace and Aura of Vitality over the almost standard Trickery. Generally it's easier to find a scroll of improved invisibility than a scroll of aura of vitality.
Advantages
-Good AB. Desipite only having a 25 BAB, he has a 42 AB with a Scimitar. With buffs he can easily get a 66 without magic items, 68 with +4 Strength boost from items. -3 Maximum AB attacks. With Haste and Divine Power, this build gets 3 attacks at the maximum AB bonus. -Good Damage. He does 13+1D6 points of damage unbuffed. With buffs he does 40+2D6 points of damage on a regular hit. -Good AC. Without any magic items he can get a 59 AC (71 AC if he abuses the stacking of UEF). Note that War domain was chosen for Aura of Vitality and Cat's Grace, if good Attribute boosting equipment is available he could use Trickery domain instead and pick up improved invisibility. -Level 9 cleric spells with a caster level of 26. He has a ton of buffs, healing magic, plus harm and word of faith. He only has to worry about Mordenkainen's Disjunction removing his buffs. -Ability to use mage scrolls and equipment from other classes. He has a high UMD to use equipment from other classes and as a Bard he can use mage scrolls without UMD checks. -Immunity to Fire and Sleep and Paralysis. -Improved Knockdown. Always useful against casters and hard hitting opponents.
Disadvantages
-Mediocre Hitpoints. With Aid, Endurance and Aura of Vitality he'll end up with over 600 hitpoints. -Low Reflex Saving throw and mediocre Will and Fortitude Saves. Vs. Spells the Will and Fortitude saves are okay, he can also cast an extended clarity to help with will saves and protection from negative energy, death ward and/or undeath's eternal foe will help with the fortitude save. The Reflex Save is a weak point, though freedom of movement will help a bit.
Blood and Faith
Race Human
Alignment Any non lawful
Base Attributes STR 16 DEX 8 CON 12 INT 14 WIS 16 CHA 8
Attribute Bonuses Levels 4, 8 and 12 Increase Wisdom Levels 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, 36 and 40 Increase Strength
Final Level Distribution Bard 4 Cleric 26 Red Dragon Disciple 10
AC 23 (no buffs no equipment) 34 (Full Plate, Tower Shield) 59 (+4 to DEX, Full Plate, Tower Shield, Shield of Faith, Magic Vestment x2, Haste, Undeath's Eternal Foe) 71 (+4 to DEX, Full Plate, Tower Shield, Shield of Faith, Magic Vestment x2, Haste, Undeath's Eternal Foe x4) 69 (+4 to DEX, +5 Full Plate, +5 Tower Shield, +5 Amulet of Natural Armor, +5 Ring of Protection, +5 Boots of the Sun Soul, Haste, Undeath's Eternal Foe) 76 (+4 to DEX, +5 Full Plate, +5 Tower Shield, +5 Amulet of Natural Armor, +5 Ring of Protection, +5 Boots of the Sun Soul, Haste, Undeath's Eternal Foe x3)
Final Saves (Vs. Spells) Fortitude 24 (33) Reflex 15 (24) Will 27 (36)
Fixed base scimitar damage - Kail Pendragon Fixed slashes in title. - Bromium _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
Edited By Bromium on 01/30/08 18:17
So ... beautiful.
Seriously, very good. I like the fact that it has a warrior level AB, 9th level cleric spells and RDD stats and still say "Hey, look at my 34 armored unbuffed AB!" _________________ CATS!
Nice, I don't play a lot of Clerics, but I could see myself playing something like this. One thing I saw though: under base damage with mundane scimitar you have 13+1d10, I am thinking scimitar is 1d6, not 1d10.
Edit- I also dont think that 436 hp is that bad for this type of char. Like you said, looking at around 600 or so with buffs, or if you find some decent con equip. _________________ If everyone is thinking alike, then someone is failing to think.
Edited By DarkStar27909 on 06/13/06 20:41
Funny that you posted this. I built an almost identical version of this about two weeks ago, and it was just too powerful. Take an overpowered PrC and combine it with an overpowered base class, and you have a god. Unfortunately, I had to abandon the idea because of domain/alignment issues with the environ where I played. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Thanks for the feedback.
When I first designed this character I went with a katana instead of a scimitar, hence the 1D10. I thought I'd caught all of those in editing, oh well I guess that's why we have moderators. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
Great battle cleric, this build rocks.
I'm playing the same class combo at the moment, but a caster cleric version getting Spell Foci and Spell Penetration feats pumping WIS only (RDD boni apart).
I would consider going Cleric 10/RDD 8/Bard 2 preepic starting out with Bard for more skillpoints and taking RDD 9-10 immediately in epic. It costs 1 AB and delays cleric into epic but you get back 20+ skillpoints and earlier stats bumps. I believe the choice would depend on the playing environment, as usual. Besides a pure cleric preepic is just mean
I love this combo and I love this mean fighting machine. Mucho kudos Mith!
Cheers, Kail _________________ Looking for a realm of adventure? Check out World of Greyhawk, you won't regret it.
I'll be trying this build. _________________ "... C'est un pays plus nu que la terre polaire — Ni bêtes, ni ruisseaux, ni verdure, ni bois!
Or il n'est pas d'horreur au monde qui surpasse La froide cruauté de ce soleil de glace Et cette immense nuit semblable au vieux Chaos; ..."
Funny that you posted this. I built an almost identical version of this about two weeks ago, and it was just too powerful. Take an overpowered PrC and combine it with an overpowered base class, and you have a god. Unfortunately, I had to abandon the idea because of domain/alignment issues with the environ where I played.
So true--I almost always build with cleric-primary if I'm playing on a high-challenge (high magic) server. There was another thread on the main forums some time ago about how clerics are one of the few classes that are powerful regardless of magic level (argument went something like in pre-epic, if you balance the game to make it challenging for a battle-cleric, it becomes extremely challenging if not overpowering for other classes--I'm sure you've seen this one or something like it).
This is an extremely powerful, well-designed build--as Mith's builds always are. I generally don't build with RDD, but these two classes together are darn near unstoppable. As I see it, the only thing that will really scare this guy is a spell breach or Mord's--and even then he won't be completely crippled with such a high base strength. Epic-primary clerics always suffer from a sub-par reflex save as well, but cat's grace and high SR bridge that gap pretty nicely. I also prefer to take cleric straight to 17 right away, as you have done. Playable all the way up, and extremely powerful at 40. Excellently done. _________________ Favorite PW's: Hall of the Worlds, Higher Ground, World of Iniquity.
Edited By chsmi on 06/13/06 22:38
He should rightfully fear high-AB paladins with Holy avengers too. You can probably out-heal him though. And Harm him to death.
Yeah, clerics are kinda over-powered, but not more so than wizards and sorcerers. In PnP it ain't so. A cleric can't go around highly buffed all day, and a wizard can't waste all his spells in one encounter.
But in NwN, builds as this is top-notch. _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG
It was only a matter of time wasn't it!
I had to stop myself building one of these when I found Jennalee had already done one.
Draconic Cleric
Awesome capabilities in both variants with the huge stat boosts from RDD, buffs from Cleric and Discipline/ Tumble Dumps from Bard.
I may have to revisit this for my own personal use!
*claps*
I must say that this is one of the finer cleric builds I have seen, and I have seen a few in my day! I have never thought about exploiting the div powers like you set up here, but I must say that I LOVE IT!! I have startd my Blood and Faith out on his career (he's lvl 6 so far LOL). The ONLY change I made is to add Dev crit to the build. Unlike almost everyone else here who has been bored silly with this feat, I have never bothered with it. The only unfortunate thing is, to get DC i have had to remove KD/ikd?blind fight and loose 2 gr str . The end result "should" be ok, but who knows, I may get to the end of her and wish I had listened to the master!
Oh, and lookin at jennas build, it is very interesting to see how, by taking almost the identical leveling progression, the choice of when to take feats results in a very different product. Again, very nicely done.
Well, well - what a very nice surprise to come back to You know, I suspected that my Dragon Slayer story might inspire a few more dragon characters, in fact, a little bird in Van (or was that a dragon? suggested that I would. However, never did I expect that the Lady Drake herself would make an appearance on the boards!
There's little I can add that hasn't been stated here already, other than to say that, while ordinarily I'm not terribly keen on Clerics per se, I am very likely to try out this build. Well done, Mith! Very, very well done Indeed: it's the Lady Drake goddess herself!!!
.., while ordinarily I'm not terribly keen on Clerics per se,..
WOW! A follower of Tyr doesnt play clerics! Sorry, I just love lookin at the inconsistencies in this non-real world! Oh yes, tyr can be paladins (sorry for bringing that up ) or fighter/cots etc, I just always thought of them as clerics.
yup. a popular strong build. I'd consider the following variants:
28 cleric/2 bard/10 rdd. stronger sr and longer buffs 23 cleric/2 bard/15 rdd. more ac from rdd 15, more hps, trade cleric bonus for rdd bonus (epic prowess is on the list).
as you mentioned, it is hard to do this class combination incorrectly.
yup. a popular strong build. I'd consider the following variants:
28 cleric/2 bard/10 rdd. stronger sr and longer buffs 23 cleric/2 bard/15 rdd. more ac from rdd 15, more hps, trade cleric bonus for rdd bonus (epic prowess is on the list).
as you mentioned, it is hard to do this class combination incorrectly.
Bard 4 increases playability. And RDD above 10 is such a waste. _________________ CATS!
Quote: Posted 06/19/06 22:56:25 (GMT) -- avarielo
Bard 4 increases playability. And RDD above 10 is such a waste.
ummm. I disagree. Maybe not your cup of tea, but if you take exactly the same feats, except you take 23 cleric/2 bard/15 rdd you end up with the same stats, but with +1 ac, more hps, and minus some skill points (14 taunt isn't really doing too much for the build atm). I'm not sure that should be written off so easily as a waste.
It is possible already to get a few more skill points via the +int increase by taking the rdd levels earlier anyways if that is a concern.
bard 4 is a valid argument, but for lvl 40 play it makes little difference other than skill points. I still think this argument is dodgy simply because this is a very powerful character and I doubt players will strongly feel the lack of their tumble ac or sub-par taunt. umd could be useful for lvling from 22-40 depending on the play environment. if there is very pricy class restricted stuff that could be useful.
I do not mean to detract from the original build posted. I just wanted to offer the pros and cons of some slight variants.
You lose undispellability though by dropping to Cleric 23 and AC is not an issue in such a buffer build for sure.
Cheers, Kail _________________ To hear the sound of Freedom, many gave their lives They fought for you and me Those memories will always live inside us, and now it's our time to be free
Quote: Posted 06/19/06 21:16:36 (GMT) -- jjjhhhlll 28 cleric/2 bard/10 rdd. stronger sr and longer buffs
With a straight level 40 build I might like this one a bit better. For playability, I like the extra bard levels. Both builds are basically undispellable by non wizard/sorcerers (a spellsword will strip about 1/3 of the buffs, a full caster will strip them all). With 26 levels a scroll of MD will remove 5% of the buffs (plus the breachable ones), with 28 levels it could only remove the breachable ones. You could probably even go 27 cleric/3 bard/10 rdd and find a happy median.
Quote: 23 cleric/2 bard/15 rdd. more ac from rdd 15, more hps, trade cleric bonus for rdd bonus (epic prowess is on the list).
Not so much a fan of this one, since I'd rather give up 1 AC and 24 hp so that a rogue can't remove another 20% of my buffs. Still, it might be a good alternative in low magic, where level 9 scrolls are prohibitive. Plus, this variant would now be 5% vulnerable to greater dispel, it might not sound like much but a cleric build will have enough buffs up that it could lose something. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
Edited By Mithdradates on 06/20/06 19:54
in my experience (which is somewhat limited), I don't see greater dispel being used very often. I play mostly pvm in parties. we have mages in the party for breach spells and mords which are very reliable. dispels are not so reliable. monsters tend to mord or not do any type of dispel.
anyways, totally valid points all around. nice to hear the explanations.
I'm a bigger fan of 26+ cleric levels. It gives you the option of taking penetration feats to do some offensive casting. I always would rather have an ability than not have it. In fact that'd be my argument in favor of the 28 cleric (or 27 cleric) versions - you can get up to 32 SR penetrating ability with only 2 feats in those builds and not need epic penetration.
But if you're playing up, 4 bard makes for nice skill dumping. It's a good tradeoff for playability's sake, especially in a hard environment. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Looks like a nice strong build; if it didn't take me so long to level on my server I would give it a try - i've just got 'into' one of my characters as he is finally maturing.
It seems that the OP is saying that "Undeath's Eternal Foe" will increase AC. I don't have a lot of experience with the spell, but the Grimoire indicates that if gives immuity to; negative damage, level/energy drain, sbility score decreases, poisons and disease. It doesn't mention anything about increasing AC ... what's the deal here?
It also gives a dodge AC bonus of +4.
Being dodge AC, the bonus stacks with other sources of dodge and, I think, stacks with itself (ie, if you cast UEF twice, you get +8)... but I haven't tried that so don't take my word for it. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Thanks X,
What is the world coming to, we can't even believe the Grimoire now?! I presume it stacks, as that is what the OP indicated ... interesting. I may go and check out what the wiki says about it.
Being dodge AC, the bonus stacks with other sources of dodge and, I think, stacks with itself (ie, if you cast UEF twice, you get +8)... but I haven't tried that so don't take my word for it.
That's true, it stacks with itself (that's BioWare standard implementation - fixed on numerous servers).
Also, sir mphacon, it's a fact that the Grimoire is wrong on many accounts, take nothing for certain unless you've tested it yourself _________________ "We keep our Feast of Feasts, sure of our bourne, Our aims self-same: The Guest of Guests, friend Zarathustra, came! The world now laughs, the grisly veil was torn, And Light and Dark were one that wedding-morn."
I love this build, ive played with it in the past. One question, is there any way of getting that fort save higher without really messing up this monster cleric build?
That's true, it stacks with itself (that's BioWare standard implementation - fixed on numerous servers).
Wow--amazing that a bug like this would persist. Even more amazing that I've never bothered to try stacking it, as I assumed it didn't stack with itself.
Even though it stacks with itself, I'm not sure I could bring myself to actually do it---feels too much like an exploit!
Good to know you can, though.. _________________ Favorite PW's: Hall of the Worlds, Higher Ground, World of Iniquity.
Quote: Posted 07/11/06 18:47:31 (GMT) -- Kurgan13
I love this build, ive played with it in the past. One question, is there any way of getting that fort save higher without really messing up this monster cleric build?
Drop two great strengths and pick up great fortitude and epic fortitude, that will increase the fortitude save by 6 at the cost of 1 damage and 1 AB. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
Quote: Posted 07/11/06 18:47:31 (GMT) -- Kurgan13
I love this build, ive played with it in the past. One question, is there any way of getting that fort save higher without really messing up this monster cleric build?
Drop two great strengths and pick up great fortitude and epic fortitude, that will increase the fortitude save by 6 at the cost of 1 damage and 1 AB.(/quote)
i would just get epic fort and keep 1 G.S
You would either want to keep both GS or drop 2... no point landing with an odd STR.
Just ideas for this one really:
Drop 2 x Great Strength for 2 x Epic Energy Resistance Acid
Drop 1 X Great Strength for Epic Fortitude
Drop starting STR to 15 and raise CON to 14, then you can choose to drop Toughness for another feat, such as Great Fortitude, Metamagic, or any other suitable feat.
The net effect is to drop Discipline by 2 base ranks, AB and damage by 2 points also.
Your Fort Save increases by 4, Base Acid Resistance is 20/-, which is handy against mage's, considering you are already immune to both Fire and Paralysis, if your Spell Resistance spell does not cover this of course.
Bearing in mind the buffing potential of this beast, 2AB and 2 Damage is not the end of the world, when offset against a permanent 20/- Acid DR and a higher Fort save to try to counter Dev Crit.
Ideas really.
This is one of those times, you wish RDD had been implemented properly and you gained the size increase you should have rendering you immune to the Bigby's hand spells. In that case with the acid resistance feats this would make a fine mage slayer. As it is, against a spellsword with 20 to 30 levels of an arcane class it should have a high enough strength to resist those spells. As the rules stand now, against any build other than a dragon shifter or SR monk, all a focused arcane caster has to do to win is cast time stop+mordenkainen's disjunction+Biby's Grasping Hand (or Bigby's Crushing Hand against a rashaka ***er) and it's game over. Since Mord's breaches spell resistance even a level 40 cleric is gonna get pounded by that combo.
In a devastating critical environment, I would sooner play something like my Hierophant of Velsharoon build. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
Just a question. Why don't you take CC and ICC? I tend to work those into all my melee casters. Do you use defensive casting or what?
I can't answer for Mith, but personally I almost never bother with CC/ICC unless I'm gonna take expertise/improved expertise and I've got the feats to spare. Defensive casting already does the job nicely and the concentration check it's a problem only at low levels, where I just take the AoO by casting in normal mode.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Heavy metal Or no metal at all Whimps and posers Leave the hall!
(b) Base Attributes STR 16 DEX 8 CON 12 INT 14 WIS 16 CHA 8
Attribute Bonuses Levels 4, 8 and 12 Increase Wisdom Levels 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, 36 and 40 Increase Strength
Final Attributes STR 36 DEX 8 CON 14 INT 16 WIS 20 CHA 10
In your str modifier you put you get 36 at the end, 16 at the start, but with the 4 Great Strengths, +8 RDD str bonus, and the +7 points you took at attribute bonus levels you would end up with +19 str to your original 16, not +20 therefore giving you a ending stat of 35.
If there was something in the build that corrected this i may have just missed it , if i did please tell me because im planning on using this build soon
There's 5 Great Strengths, last one taken on 39th lvl.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Looking for a realm of adventure? Check out World of Greyhawk, you won't regret it.
oh ok, i didnt see the one on lvl 27.
I can't answer for Mith, but personally I almost never bother with CC/ICC unless I'm gonna take expertise/improved expertise and I've got the feats to spare. Defensive casting already does the job nicely and the concentration check it's a problem only at low levels, where I just take the AoO by casting in normal mode.
Cheers, Kail
Only a problem at low levels? The PW I play has creatures that can do 50+ damage in a hit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the check for disrupting a spell something like 10 +the damage you take + spell level vs. your concentration check?
Does defensive casting mode make you immune to being disrupted?
Quote: Posted 08/01/06 18:28:01 (GMT) -- GoVols
Does defensive casting mode make you immune to being disrupted?
As immune as ICC does. _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star WreckNothing makes you immune to spell disruption except passing the Concentration check. All ICC and DCM do is negate any attacks of opportunity against you for casting in combat. If you're hit (and you can still be hit by the mobs surrounding you), you still have to pass the Concentration check in order for your spell not to be disrupted, whether you're in DCM or you have ICC. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
So ... beautiful.
I must say that this is one of the finer cleric builds I have seen, and I have seen a few in my day! I have never thought about exploiting the div powers like you set up here, but I must say that I LOVE IT!! I have startd my Blood and Faith out on his career (he's lvl 6 so far LOL). The ONLY change I made is to add Dev crit to the build. Unlike almost everyone else here who has been bored silly with this feat, I have never bothered with it. The only unfortunate thing is, to get DC i have had to remove KD/ikd?blind fight and loose 2 gr str 
. The end result "should" be ok, but who knows, I may get to the end of her and wish I had listened to the master! 
suggested that I would. However, never did I expect that the Lady Drake herself would make an appearance on the boards! 
There's 5 Great Strengths, last one taken on 39th lvl.