*Reducing STR to 8 can lead to 14 INT instead of 12 and picking up a minor death Attack Dc, as well as a slew of INT points as you progress. While not needed, Personally, I'd rather have the skill points. The other option is to go 10 STR, 14 int, 12 wis and lose 1 AC point.
1 Monk(1):Ambidexterity; Weapon Finesse 2 Monk(2): 3 Monk(3):Two-Weapon Fighting 4 Monk(4): 5 Monk(5): 6 Assassin(1):Called Shot 7 Monk(6):Improved Knockdown; Knockdown 8 Assassin(2): Dexterity +1; 9 Assassin(3): Weapon Focus (kama) 10 Blackguard(1): 11 Blackguard(2): 12 Blackguard(3): Dexterity +1; Imp Two-Weapon Fighting 13 Blackguard(4): 14 Blackguard(5): 15 Blackguard(6): Improved Critical (kama) 16 Blackguard(7): Dexterity +1 17 Blackguard(8): 18 Blackguard(9): Blind-Fight 19 Blackguard(10): 20 Assassin(4) Dexterity +1 21 Assassin(5): Great Dexterity I 22 Assassin(6): 23 Assassin(7): 24 Assassin(8): Dexterity +1; Great Dexterity II 25 Assassin(9): 26 Assassin(10): 27 Assassin(11): Epic Weapon Focus (kama) 28 Blackguard(11): Dexterity +1 29 Assassin(12): 30 Assassin(13): Great Dexterity III 31 Assassin(14): Great Dexterity IV 32 Assassin(15): Dexterity +1 33 Assassin(16): Great Dexterity V 34 Assassin(17): 35 Assassin(18): Great Dexterity VI 36 Assassin(19): Dexterity +1; Great Dexterity VII 37 Blackguard(12): 38 Assassin(20): 39 Blackguard(13): Armor Skin; Great Dexterity VIII 40 Assassin(21): Dexterity +1
Edit. Major editing of everything. Removed skillpoints from level-progression, removed class-abilities, removed endeless quoting from nowhere. Removed server specific items. Plus a few minor things. Grimnir _________________
Quote: You shouldn't be offended by this; by hacker standards, your respondent is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you.
Hello there. Just a few things. Your format was completely unreadable and close to the worst and most messy I have ever seen here. Next time use the standard format like everyone else. It's stickied at the top of the builds page. Do not cut-paste from somewhere and put it in quotes. Don't include all skills in level-progression. If you want to give out server specific items and abilities, do so in separate post after the original, or at the bottom of your post.
Don't take my words the wrong way, we are glad you post here, just use correct formatting next time as it makes it easier to get some feedback too. _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG
Don't take my words the wrong way, we are glad you post here, just use correct formatting next time as it makes it easier to get some feedback too.
Indeed, most of us regulars have been coming here for more than a year and we've gotten used to a certain format which we find to be the best. Standardization makes us all more efficient
Another customary thing - though not obligatory, but without it it's pretty hard to give any (good) feedback - is an introduction paragraph (or numerous), wherein you describe what the basic idea of the build is and maybe a little bit why did what you did with classes/feats/etc. _________________ "We keep our Feast of Feasts, sure of our bourne, Our aims self-same: The Guest of Guests, friend Zarathustra, came! The world now laughs, the grisly veil was torn, And Light and Dark were one that wedding-morn."
Hello there. Just a few things. Your format was completely unreadable and close to the worst and most messy I have ever seen here.
It does however cut and paste damned nicely into the IG journel, including class level, skills, and feats, at each level in a simple, Single list. You are however correct this looks better on the forums.
Quote: Next time use the standard format like everyone else. It's stickied at the top of the builds page. Do not cut-paste from somewhere and put it in quotes. Don't include all skills in level-progression.
Sure thing, but skills/feats on a seperate list is still inconvient, at least to my view.
Quote: If you want to give out server specific items and abilities, do so in separate post after the original, or at the bottom of your post.
1.) It was initially at the bottom of the post. 2.) It was all NWN STANDARD items, all +5 or lower. 3.) It was used as an easy way to estimate Non-magic vs a high magic effectiveness.
Quote: Posted 06/20/06 16:13:05 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ Another customary thing - though not obligatory, but without it it's pretty hard to give any (good) feedback - is an introduction paragraph (or numerous), wherein you describe what the basic idea of the build is and maybe a little bit why did what you did with classes/feats/etc.
If it still had class specific bonus's, it'd be quite clear you have a 27BAB dex Fighter with 15d6(11d6 death{21AS} + 4d6Sneak{13BG}) Sneak, and 8 attacks a round(9 I believe if hasted), Darkness 1/day(Every swing in darkness = sneak attack) Invis 1/day, Imp invis 1/day, Ghostly Vistage 1/day, 2 summons per day(Bait), Imp KD(Hence 6 monk and not 5), ect.
While it has no epic dodge, its still a suitably sufficent dex fighter. _________________
Quote: You shouldn't be offended by this; by hacker standards, your respondent is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you.
Migrating Traps U: 10May08
I dunno about this. Dexers without epic dodge are tricky. Still, you get all those nifty assassin powers, so it works.
You need more hitpoints. 304 is too few for a character with epic dodge, SCV, HiPS, 20d6 sneak attack, EWS and the greatsword of ultimate instantaneous killing and really high attack bonus. _________________ CATS!
If it still had class specific bonus's, it'd be quite clear you have a 27BAB dex Fighter with 15d6(11d6 death{21AS} + 4d6Sneak{13BG}) Sneak, and 8 attacks a round(9 I believe if hasted), Darkness 1/day(Every swing in darkness = sneak attack) Invis 1/day, Imp invis 1/day, Ghostly Vistage 1/day, 2 summons per day(Bait), Imp KD(Hence 6 monk and not 5), ect.
While it has no epic dodge, its still a suitably sufficent dex fighter.
To 99% of the people here that is still quite clear. Or just post your total sneak damage along with the rest of your damage. If you post all your class abilities along with the rest of the build it makes it hard to see what you do with the build, what choices you take. See?
Oh, and pm me the playability range, 1-40, PvM, PvP or whatever you consider it to be.
The build itself is quite good. Few hitpoints as mentioned and low death attack DC. But DA is still a nice bonus, everyone rolls a 1.
And I forgot, welcome to the guild. _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG
Quote: Posted 06/20/06 23:02:25 (GMT) -- avarielo
I dunno about this. Dexers without epic dodge are tricky. Still, you get all those nifty assassin powers, so it works.
You need more hitpoints. 304 is too few for a character with epic dodge, SCV, HiPS, 20d6 sneak attack, EWS and the greatsword of ultimate instantaneous killing and really high attack bonus.
Short of using rogue or SD in it, Epic dodge won't work. your right, dexer's without Epic dodge are dicey.. but dropping BG would loose 10 BAB pre-epic. loosing assassin would ditch the nice Death attack. Trading in assassin for rogue would likely be the standard route.. but I wanted something unique.
To 99% of the people here that is still quite clear. Or just post your total sneak damage along with the rest of your damage. If you post all your class abilities along with the rest of the build it makes it hard to see what you do with the build, what choices you take. See?
Oh, and pm me the playability range, 1-40, PvM, PvP or whatever you consider it to be.
The build itself is quite good. Few hitpoints as mentioned and low death attack DC. But DA is still a nice bonus, everyone rolls a 1.
And I forgot, welcome to the guild.
I played it 1-40 PVM, I'm not sure how well it'd do 1-40 PVP, or against say.. Jasperre's AI using critters, However its overall capable enough. And while teh death attack DC is low.. if Hasted, you get 3 attacks in the first combat flurry, thus they roll against death attack 3 times. Not overly great, but deffinatly a perk.
Ohhh, I've been here a while.. I just Lurk a lot. _________________
Quote: You shouldn't be offended by this; by hacker standards, your respondent is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you.
Migrating Traps U: 10May08
Defenses are kind of weak in this build, frankly. The AC is good for a naked score, and you can increase it by buffing wisdom and dex both, but AC is all you have going for you, and the opponents who have the AB to hit you through it are almost certainly going to be quite capable of hurting you badly. Saves (other than reflex) and hitpoints are both quite weak.
You don't have a way to damage the sneak-attack immune either; coupled with your low saves, you should probably avoid fighting undead and dragons, at very least. Maybe constructs and elementals too.
I'm pretty sure you can't take weapon finesse at level 1 as a monk. It requires a BAB of +1 and monks start with BAB 0. The earliest you can take it is level 3.
I'd advise dumping Called Shot and Improved Critical in favor of other feats. Also, 20 spot does nothing for you. Put those points into Spellcraft instead for some saving throw bonuses, that combined with Iron Will and Great Fortitude might give you a chance to save against death and mind magic. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Defenses are kind of weak in this build, frankly. The AC is good for a naked score, and you can increase it by buffing wisdom and dex both, but AC is all you have going for you, and the opponents who have the AB to hit you through it are almost certainly going to be quite capable of hurting you badly. Saves (other than reflex) and hitpoints are both quite weak.
You don't have a way to damage the sneak-attack immune either; coupled with your low saves, you should probably avoid fighting undead and dragons, at very least. Maybe constructs and elementals too.
You cite how its rather ineffective against sneak immune things just after saying enemies that have the AB to hit it will do a number on it. Perhaps I was unclear, I don't expect it to hold up well in a straight up fight. The assassin class is named that for a reason, its not about a stand up, clean, honest fight. Plain and simple, you do not give your enemy the oppertunity to hit. This build hasted, will have 3 swings in the first 2 seconds of combat.
45d6(15d6*3) In addition to normal/weapon damage. Provided you play the assassin, as an assassin.
Admittedly, its a niche market to make a Monk/BG/AS. There is exactly 1 other build that turns up with pulse cap's search engine. Call me crazy, but it works. Sure it can't kill every possible enemy. That's a given. Powerbuilding is like chess, there is build, and counterbuild. If you want a build that will rip this apart, I can do that easy too. But all it'd take to flip those tables is a six second window of oppertunity.
Less time than it takes the average enemy to complete a rest.
You point out the low saves, but an item with +3 universal (Ring of resistance) and say.. +6 nymph cloak(Blackguard remember, CHA mod = Save bonus) could tidy that angle up without(I think) too much fuss.
In this way it resembles a bard: It's not a straight up fighter...but it can fight. It's not a spellcaster...but it has a few magical gimmicks. It's not the devestating rogue...but it can take a chomp out of a suprised enemy.
If you take it for what it is, I think you may find out its more capable than it appears on paper.
Quote: I'm pretty sure you can't take weapon finesse at level 1 as a monk. It requires a BAB of +1 and monks start with BAB 0. The earliest you can take it is level 3.
Ack, quite right, I had it initially at level 3, looked at it when I went to post and said "Level 3 weapon finesse.. Right, one to many that night" and switched lvl 1 and lvl 3 feats without even thinking about it.
Quote: I'd advise dumping Called Shot and Improved Critical in favor of other feats. Also, 20 spot does nothing for you. Put those points into Spellcraft instead for some saving throw bonuses, that combined with Iron Will and Great Fortitude might give you a chance to save against death and mind magic.
Called shot I suppose is reasonable, but ditching Imp Crit.. I disagree, on the basis that pure and simple, this is a flanker capable of dealing substantial damage when not primary target Imp crit goes a long way towardsgiving it soem nominal damage if forced onto a level playing field, as well as on teh off chance you fight sneak, but not crit immune creatures.
As I said origionally, I'd take the STR hit and boost INT for the skillpoints. Normally, I don't make this with the spot score being as low as 20.
As for save's vs death/mindspells. Come on. Its 21 assassin: If the enemy survives to attain the chance to cast spells, your obviously doing something wrong already. _________________
Quote: You shouldn't be offended by this; by hacker standards, your respondent is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you.
Without ESF hide and move silently, I don't believe you will be reasonably able to sneak up on most people in a PvP environment, at least not one where there are intelligent, or even just experienced, players.
I've said this a lot about stealther/dex builds lately - "Any build can win if the enemy doesn't get to fight back. Most enemies are not so obliging, however."
Your death attack won't be very effective against warrior-type melees (their fort saves are strong so they'd probably have to roll a 1 to fail), and you probably won't get death attacks against spellcasters because with their counter-stealth buffs and a skill dump level, they'll see you before you sneak up on them and death attack requires that you be completely unseen before attacking.
45d6 worth of sneak attacks averages to 157.5 damage - impressive, but not fatal even for an arcane spellcaster. At most, it's 270 damage - even more impressive, but still not fatal even for an arcane spellcaster.
For people who listen to the oft-repeated advice in this forum to get some hitpoints, you'll take a chunk out of them, then they'll start fighting back while you desperately try to run away fast enough to get behind a corner and re engage stealth mode. If the person you're playing isn't lagging, or if you are lagging, odds are you can't run away fast enough to do that. The other person's not going to sit there and drool while you do whatever you want to them.
As far as PvE, it's practically impossible to go through a PvE career and not have to fight undead. And PvE tends to be against crowds, so you'll get a flurry of sneak attacks against one, then run with four of his friends chasing you until/unless you can find a corner.
But if you had hitpoints and epic dodge on your side, you could go toe to toe.
Regarding improved critical, the reason to drop it is because you haven't got enough base damage for the criticals to multiply. 1d6 +6 (maxed strength) +5 (enhancement) averages to 13.5 damage; your criticals at x2 will do a whopping 27 damage on average. Worth a feat to crit more often? Probably not. If you're forced into a standup fight you should hit your Darkness spell (and be buffed via UMD with an ultravision scroll) or land a knockdown so you can start getting sneak attacks again.
If the enemy is immune to sneak attacks, they are probably also immune to criticals. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Without ESF hide and move silently, I don't believe you will be reasonably able to sneak up on most people in a PvP environment, at least not one where there are intelligent, or even just experienced, players.
Silly Rabbit, Trix are for Assassins. You have 2 Invis spells per rest. If one wanted, I suppose they could ditch hide and move completely.. but I personally don't put all my faith in spells like that. Even more so as See invis is really not all that expensive.
Quote: I've said this a lot about stealther/dex builds lately - "Any build can win if the enemy doesn't get to fight back. Most enemies are not so obliging, however."
Your death attack won't be very effective against warrior-type melees (their fort saves are strong so they'd probably have to roll a 1 to fail), and you probably won't get death attacks against spellcasters because with their counter-stealth buffs and a skill dump level, they'll see you before you sneak up on them and death attack requires that you be completely unseen before attacking.
Death attack yes. Run around the corner and Hide: NO. That's exactly what I'm talking about when I say you have to know how to play one. It's also why I mentioned above that every attack in darkness is a sneak attack. A great many people don't realize that and fail to see its importance.
You get off three sneak's, and run. You 20% faster due to monk speed, so outrunning the enemy will usually not be a problem. Anyway, you've got a 2 second lead on them, Summon fiend or create undead. Doesn't matter which.
The combat AI in NWN is quite stupid, However it will spot the nearby enemy who'se engaging it, process the information, and engage that enemy before the player realizes its happening. However, this does run a minor risk of failure if, and I stress IF enemy is chasing you using keyboard key's.
Now you've bought yourself an 10 second window. Cast Invis(Plane invis, You always hold something{Imp Invis} in reserve.) to 10 paces to the side, cross past them to get behind, Cast ghostly vistage. get in close(Stealth mode suggested) 2 maybe 3 feet away(You want to be outside of sight once in darkness, but just barely) and slap darkness over them. This will end stealth and invis.. So expect that step forward and swing.
Quote: 45d6 worth of sneak attacks averages to 157.5 damage - impressive, but not fatal even for an arcane spellcaster. At most, it's 270 damage - even more impressive, but still not fatal even for an arcane spellcaster.
Keep in mind, that's the first two seconds of combat. Effectively 15d6 * attacks per round(8 normally, 9 if hasted). 120d6(720 max) non-hasted. 135d6(810 max) hasted. Are you going to hit max on 8 or 9 attacks a round? Not a chance. Are you going to hit maybe a quarter of that.. far more likely.
Quote: For people who listen to the oft-repeated advice in this forum to get some hitpoints, you'll take a chunk out of them, then they'll start fighting back while you desperately try to run away fast enough to get behind a corner and re engage stealth mode. If the person you're playing isn't lagging, or if you are lagging, odds are you can't run away fast enough to do that. The other person's not going to sit there and drool while you do whatever you want to them.
Even if your not fighting an idiot... its very, very easy to turn them into an idiot, see above.
Quote: As far as PvE, it's practically impossible to go through a PvE career and not have to fight undead. And PvE tends to be against crowds, so you'll get a flurry of sneak attacks against one, then run with four of his friends chasing you until/unless you can find a corner.
But if you had hitpoints and epic dodge on your side, you could go toe to toe.
Undead trouble what 9/10 dexer's? I can live with the fact that undead are hard for this build. I honestly figured it was a given. As far as PvE: see above primer on how to use the classes effictively. And as you said:
"If you're forced into a standup fight you should hit your Darkness spell (and be buffed via UMD with an ultravision scroll) or land a knockdown so you can start getting sneak attacks again"
Would this not also hold true against PvE groups?
Quote: Regarding improved critical, the reason to drop it is because you haven't got enough base damage for the criticals to multiply. 1d6 +6 (maxed strength) +5 (enhancement) averages to 13.5 damage; your criticals at x2 will do a whopping 27 damage on average. Worth a feat to crit more often? Probably not.
Valid point. might be worth it to trade in the pair for imp disarm, but like I said.. any time imp disarm would work.. so too would called shot. Being able ot lower stat's I think has a nastier effect, as a weapon can be picked back up. Althought, I suspect against this.. you'd do better to whip out a diffrent weapon... any weapon.. a few seconds of flatfooted weapon acquiring = death in this instance. Likewise potions can be drank to remove the ability lowering, but a Leg shot reduces their pursuit speed mind you.
Quote: If you're forced into a standup fight you should hit your Darkness spell (and be buffed via UMD with an ultravision scroll) or land a knockdown so you can start getting sneak attacks again.
If the enemy is immune to sneak attacks, they are probably also immune to criticals.
_________________
Quote: You shouldn't be offended by this; by hacker standards, your respondent is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you.
Silly Rabbit, Trix are for Assassins. You have 2 Invis spells per rest. If one wanted, I suppose they could ditch hide and move completely.. but I personally don't put all my faith in spells like that. Even more so as See invis is really not all that expensive.
Try this and see how well it doesn't work.
Having see invisibility available is a no brainer in a PvP environment.
Quote: Death attack yes. Run around the corner and Hide: NO. That's exactly what I'm talking about when I say you have to know how to play one. It's also why I mentioned above that every attack in darkness is a sneak attack. A great many people don't realize that and fail to see its importance.
Only if the enemy doesn't have ultravision, which is a pretty standard buff for people who know what they're doing.
Quote: You get off three sneak's, and run. You 20% faster due to monk speed, so outrunning the enemy will usually not be a problem. Anyway, you've got a 2 second lead on them, Summon fiend or create undead. Doesn't matter which.
But they don't have to keep up with you, technically, and you won't get the sneaks off if they spot you first (as noted above about your easily countered stealth). They just have to keep you in view. I don't know where you think you have a lead on them... you have to stand still for your attacks to go off and at least some of their return attacks will process against you even as you're running away.
Also, casters can throw area spells at where they saw you disappear and hit you without being able to see you.
Quote: Now you've bought yourself an 10 second window. Cast Invis(Plane invis, You always hold something{Imp Invis} in reserve.) to 10 paces to the side, cross past them to get behind, Cast ghostly vistage. get in close(Stealth mode suggested) 2 maybe 3 feet away(You want to be outside of sight once in darkness, but just barely) and slap darkness over them. This will end stealth and invis.. So expect that step forward and swing.
You'd better start out with improved invis up for the 50% concealment. Ghostly visage is a joke for concealment, its best aspect is making you immune to level 1 spells (ray of enfeeblement would otherwise be very able to lower your strength to 1 in this build - due to low saves - and you'll be running nowhere fast then). See above about your enemies having ultravision - by the way, if you don't have ultravision you'll be giving yourself an attacker miss penalty by using darkness.
Quote: Keep in mind, that's the first two seconds of combat. Effectively 15d6 * attacks per round(8 normally, 9 if hasted). 120d6(720 max) non-hasted. 135d6(810 max) hasted. Are you going to hit max on 8 or 9 attacks a round? Not a chance. Are you going to hit maybe a quarter of that.. far more likely.
But only the first flurry will be sneak attacks unless you're flanking, have the enemy knocked down, or are in darkness and they don't have ultravision.
And if you're running away after the first flurry, you aren't getting the rest of the attacks that round. If you aren't running away after the first flurry, you're letting the enemy fight you back with their knockdowns, bigby's hands, harm, etc.
Quote: Undead trouble what 9/10 dexer's? I can live with the fact that undead are hard for this build. I honestly figured it was a given. As far as PvE: see above primer on how to use the classes effictively. And as you said:
"If you're forced into a standup fight you should hit your Darkness spell (and be buffed via UMD with an ultravision scroll) or land a knockdown so you can start getting sneak attacks again"
Would this not also hold true against PvE groups?
No, because you KD one and while you're killing him his friends are lighting into you - that's what I mean about having hitpoints and epic dodge. Epic dodge + 50% conceal from improved invisibility + decent AC is incomparable melee defense - it makes it so that you get hit like once out of every 400 attacks on average, someone did the math once. But without all three it doesn't work the same way and you get hit a lot more. This is why people often say that being a dex build without epic dodge isn't worth it.
Darkness is good but it's once/day for you. And you need to UMD yourself ultravision or it's not as helpful.
This isn't a bad build, it's better than many of its peers, but everybody needs more hitpoints - and if you have under 400 as a melee of any sort, you really should be looking at ways to get more. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Just a comment here, while you guys are discussing efficiency in PvP, "I pwn you" comments is not necessary without giving recommandations as to how to improve. And Chaos has said it is mainly a PvM-build too. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
I like sneakers, and villain type characters - a lot Have to agree with Xylo and others here, you need UMD and more HPs, and also need to get your saves up. Yes, BG has Dark Blessing, but your cha isn't of much help; true, you can find equip't to buff it, but unless it's a high magic world, .... Then, if it is, your victims will be all buffed up and likely immune to sneaks . . .
In any case, a couple of high level bard songs followed by war cry or an uber barbarian with Terrifying Rage - neither of these characters need to see you to hurt you, even assuming in the case of bard it's silly enough not to prepare itself to see invis.
Darkness is a great spell, I totally agree; but you need to be able yourself to see through it. As to sneaking, yes, you're somewhat faster than others due to monk and can run and potentially hide; I myself get a kick out of that tactic in single-player mods, but doesn't really work in PvP, especially if you plan on making use of your various death and sneaks. First strike may be on you, and now it's their turn. Plus, Barbarians have speed and spellslingers throw fire balls, bards have ice etc. etc.
Your AB for a sneaker is very good, especially with IKD, and your AC is very nice, too. So nice that I'd be inclined to drop the 1 AC in favor of more skills - UMD; also, would drop improved crit in favor of toughness; you don't have ED, and thus can't roll away. You need a few more HPs(sorry to belabor the point, really I am, but without ED, ...) DevCrit melee characters are gonna be quite upset if you sneak 'em, assuming they don't see you; assuming they've high saves and don't roll low on your assassin hit, ... and then there's all of their friends ...
Please don't misunderstand me, I like your build. It has a lot of neat features, and can dish out some damage. Very playable in a mod for sure; but your saves and HPs, notwithstanding those neat rabbit twix, could be problematic in PvP, where you can't stand still/hide and sneak attack at the same time, in a gang setting; just my two cents worth. Otherwise, neat and me thinks very playable for PvM/single player, for sure
Epic dodge + 50% conceal from improved invisibility + decent AC is incomparable melee defense - it makes it so that you get hit like once out of every 400 attacks on average, someone did the math once.
It was about 1 in 1000, but only in an environment where you can get maybe 60 or so AC. _________________ CATS!
Only if the enemy doesn't have ultravision, which is a pretty standard buff for people who know what they're doing.
Sorry Xylophone, Try it. I've been playing this 3 weeks now and the results are conclusive...I don't care if you have Lowlight-vision, Dark-vision, Ultra-vision, Nightvision Goggle AND 3D movie glasses on.
Unless your a Palemaster, you still get sneaked.
Truesight may or may not counter this.. I don't believe it does, but I may be wrong. Without getting too technical, Darkness applies a specific invisiblity type to the PC's under its effect. nwscript(Yes, that's the script name) Includes all constants from Effect_Type_* to Name_*
Darkness is actually applied as an area of effect. Meaning it has an enter script, and an exit script. Unsuprisingly, they respectively apply/remove INVISIBILITY_TYPE_DARKNESS.
Quote: But they don't have to keep up with you, technically, and you won't get the sneaks off if they spot you first (as noted above about your easily countered stealth). They just have to keep you in view. I don't know where you think you have a lead on them... you have to stand still for your attacks to go off and at least some of their return attacks will process against you even as you're running away.
True, they get just enough swings off for the combat engine to likely turn them stupid.
Smack 3 times. Run off and Gain ground. Feed enemy summons(The combat engine will make them dumb for you at this point, even if only for 3 seconds.) Turn invisible. Them keeping sight of you ceases to be a problem at this juncture. Circle around them. I suggest stealth, as you may be able to walk right next to them in all honesty. Cast darkness. Watch them learn in a most unpleasent fashion that there is no spell in NWN that makes you immune to sneak attacks while in darkness.
Quote: Also, casters can throw area spells at where they saw you disappear and hit you without being able to see you.
Which is why I use the time tested strategy of "Vanish here, move elsewhere" Caster's are gonna make it a hurting puppy, that's a given. It's not going to excell in every situation, it can't kill every sort of build. It will lose at times. That's an accepted fact. Nor can it kill hell baal in 38 seconds while taking 0 damage. It's not a character built on the concept of effectiveness, but its effectiveness sure suprised the hell outta me.
Quote: You'd better start out with improved invis up for the 50% concealment. Ghostly visage is a joke for concealment, its best aspect is making you immune to level 1 spells (ray of enfeeblement would otherwise be very able to lower your strength to 1 in this build - due to low saves - and you'll be running nowhere fast then). See above about your enemies having ultravision - by the way, if you don't have ultravision you'll be giving yourself an attacker miss penalty by using darkness.
But only the first flurry will be sneak attacks unless you're flanking, have the enemy knocked down, or are in darkness and they don't have ultravision.
See above.
Quote: And if you're running away after the first flurry, you aren't getting the rest of the attacks that round. If you aren't running away after the first flurry, you're letting the enemy fight you back with their knockdowns, bigby's hands, harm, etc.
Right, but you move faster(20%) than anything that has less monk levels than you. If your engaging on terrain of your own choosing, that advantage cannot be understated. If one engages in the middle of a 5X5 blank field with this build.. well, if one were to go that route, The obvious solution is the player must have 8 INT and 14 CON. That's the only explanation, for getting into that sort of situation, I can come up with.
Quote: No, because you KD one and while you're killing him his friends are lighting into you - that's what I mean about having hitpoints and epic dodge. Epic dodge + 50% conceal from improved invisibility + decent AC is incomparable melee defense - it makes it so that you get hit like once out of every 400 attacks on average, someone did the math once. But without all three it doesn't work the same way and you get hit a lot more. This is why people often say that being a dex build without epic dodge isn't worth it.
Darkness is good but it's once/day for you. And you need to UMD yourself ultravision or it's not as helpful.
This isn't a bad build, it's better than many of its peers, but everybody needs more hitpoints - and if you have under 400 as a melee of any sort, you really should be looking at ways to get more.
Xylophone, consider it a personal favor, but play it as it is, and with what I've suggested so far a bit and see what you think. Maybe its just where I've been playing.. maybe its that no one that's matched against it has suprised me in the least.
Summarizing 3 weeks of playing him
Cleric's : Kill it. (Unless you catch one resting.. then it had a shot.) Mage's : Kill it. (If they know its comming. Jumping 5 diffrent mages{Seperate occassions} in the middle of the street, without them knowing what was up.. lead to 4 dead mages and 1 dead assassin.) Dex dodge rogue's : Either got handed ther rump, or it was a draw. STR WM's : Never had a prayer CHA Paladin of rightous fury: Never managed to SEE this build to smite it. Admittedly, not a victory, but it beat the gruesome death that'd otherwise occur. _________________
Quote: You shouldn't be offended by this; by hacker standards, your respondent is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you.
Only if the enemy doesn't have ultravision, which is a pretty standard buff for people who know what they're doing.
Sorry Xylophone, Try it. I've been playing this 3 weeks now and the results are conclusive...I don't care if you have Lowlight-vision, Dark-vision, Ultra-vision, Nightvision Goggle AND 3D movie glasses on.
All the things you list won't save them from Darkness, but Xylophone is talking about Ultravision.
Quote: Posted 06/21/06 20:41:08 (GMT) -- ChaosInTwilight Cast darkness. Watch them learn in a most unpleasent fashion that there is no spell in NWN that makes you immune to sneak attacks while in darkness.
Ehm, ever heard of Ultravision?? It's a lvl 2 Bard/Mage/Cleric spell. You can still stealth on those people, but Darkness won't give you any advantages. Actually, since you haven't heard of Ultravision, it will give THEM an advantage.
Sorry to join in on this "my father is stronger than you father" discussion (He probably is. ), but this was at least specific advice. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Ehm, ever heard of Ultravision?? It's a lvl 2 Bard/Mage/Cleric spell. You can still stealth on those people, but Darkness won't give you any advantages. Actually, since you haven't heard of Ultravision, it will give THEM an advantage.
Sorry to join in on this "my father is stronger than you father" discussion (He probably is. :D ), but this was at least specific advice.
Yes I have heard of it. It means they can SEE you when in darkness. That is all. , Everyone is completely ignoring the single important fact: Ultravision HAS NO EFFECT with regards to darkness and sneak attacks.
They can see you inside darkness. Good for them!
They will still get hit by sneak attacks from any hit while in darkness, Ultravision is irrelevent to that. _________________
Quote: You shouldn't be offended by this; by hacker standards, your respondent is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you.
Migrating Traps U: 10May08
errrr.....just a question over here, well, two actually:
1) is it not the case that, if you cast darkness, the end result is that everyone in the zone of effect is treated as themselves having 50-% concealment, unless the attacker/caster has ultravision (i.e., to pierce the darkness in order to clearly attack, without said penalty, be it sneak or otherwise)??? and, if so
2) once darkness is pierced, say, by a person in the zone being attacked, by having ultravision (be it the bard/sorcerer etc. spell or UMD/scroll), then is it not also the case that the person, having so pierced said darkness, is in fact combat ready, seeing the attacker (unless otherwise flanked) and thus not susceptible to sneak so far as darkness is concerned?
Edited By TyrTemplar on 06/21/06 23:53
Hmmm...I play on the same server with Riven, and the Ultravision thing was a mis-understanding...For SOME reason (and we've yet to exactly figure it out) he still gets sneaks from an Ultravision Potion, but DOESN'T get them from spells(Weird, huh? This is where the misunderstanding happened). BTW, Rangers get Ultravision as well...And True Seeing also counters darkness.
You know, having a wierd case of deja vu over here; I once, not so long ago actually, insisted up and down that a particular feat didn't work for a particular character - hmmmm, come to think of it, it was a monk sneaker build, too, and turns out that my game files were corrupted . . . (um, hearing that Twilight Zone music in the background (thanks Dragon - oh, and speaking of dragons, I believe that RDD darkvision makes 'em immune to darkness, too - wasn't sure about TS, though, and appreciate that info). But, yah, these folks kinda know what they're talking about, they're generous with their time, and only interested in making things better, which is a wonderful thing. I'm an "ole time PnP'r" and, while not by any means new to NWN, I'm thankful for the "keen eyes" of the folks here, whom I call my coach team
Just to Reiterate, I like this build; it's got a lot of really good points, some neat rabbit twix, and very playable PvM/Single Player for sure, as I state above. Some of my other comments, and what Xylo and others are I do believe saying, would seemingly make this neat sneaker build that much better for PvP (should you want to of course)- but, hey, if there's a glitch in a server, where you playing at? Sounds like a place I wanna take all my sneaker/villain-types (it's all good, and again, really neat build). Cheers! ~ Tyr
Edited By TyrTemplar on 06/22/06 01:12
Some info for you all. Ultravision DOES, as stated above, hinder everyone from getting any sneak-attacks from Darkness. True seeing DOES NOT help you against the effect of Darkness. Darkvision from RDD or any other source DOES NOT protect even the least from Darkness. This is 100% tested info, and is correct!
Unless it has been modified where you play. _________________
Quote: Posted 03/06/06 18:56:45 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ Trollborn Asgardian by the master of the Norse legends, Grimnir himself!
True seeing doesn't? Wow, RoL has some screwed up spells...I'mma have to test that somewhere else.
If someone would like to direct me towards the "Humble Pie" I do beleive I have an epic serving to try and choke down at this point.
In summary:
There's at least one NWN server out there which has found "New and exciting" way's to break the game.
I'm an Idiot, and generally a particularly stubborn one.
Trueseeing, night-vision goggles, and 3D movie glasses don't help against sneaks in darkness. _________________
Quote: You shouldn't be offended by this; by hacker standards, your respondent is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you.
), but this was at least specific advice.
(thanks Dragon - oh, and speaking of dragons, I believe that RDD darkvision makes 'em immune to darkness, too - wasn't sure about TS, though, and appreciate that info). But, yah, these folks kinda know what they're talking about, they're generous with their time, and only interested in making things better, which is a wonderful thing. I'm an "ole time PnP'r" and, while not by any means new to NWN, I'm thankful for the "keen eyes" of the folks here, whom I call my coach team 
