Medieval Scout – Rogue(17), Paladin(17), Champion of Torm(6)
By Deborah Tyr
Concept: Ever wondered, before the knights went out to fight a war, who went out before hand? To scout the lay of the lands and gather information, and/or to attend to negotiations, and then report back to the King and/or Queen to ultimately conduct the intelligence-gathering process and, as such, direct the conduct of strategic military and diplomatic affairs? Why, the medieval Scout of course.
The Medieval Scout is a Dex-Based Paladin, with good spell access, combat (melee), and stealth; inspired by Finneous, this character is designed for PvM/Single-Player (Level 1-40), but should also be welcome in PvP.
Medieval Scout – Rogue(17), Paladin(17), Champion of Torm(6)
NOTE (1): Does not include scroll buffs available to this character via UMD; Note (2): Stealth Skills Maximized, has Crippling Strike & Epic Dodge feats.
Combat Vitals:
BAB: 27, AB: +41 (No Buffs) / AB +48 [UMD/Cat’s & (Greater Magic Weapon –OR- Holy Sword) Only] +1 Bless +5 Divine Favor +1 Prayer +1 Aid +1 Deafening Clang -- AB +57 (Self-Buffs Only, No Equipment) -- +3 Divine Wrath (Duration: 3-4 Rounds, with Eagle’s & Aura of Glory Only) -- + 3-4 Smite AB Bonus (with Eagle’s & Aura of Glory Only, No equipment)
AB Capped: UMD/True Strike (+20 AB) and Dex-boost (+6 AB), AB +67
*Calculation does not factor in KD considerations.
Author's Note: I hope everyone enjoys this one - not a sneaker-smiter of small stature like the Finn's, but has some nice sneak damage and also AB (with KD); saves and HPs are decent, not through the roof by any means, but has crippling strike plus ED to shrug; also, ability to buff/use UMD scrolls, and much of the stuff you'd expect in a rogue/sneak build. Skills are a bit thin, though, overall, no trap skils for instance, and not exactly a smite power-house Rather than go for pally smite, etc., went for Pally spell access (and should be a pain for arcane casters in particular, while having the ability to go toe-to-toe melee, if necessary
Look forward to your thoughts and comments!
Edited at posters request, fixed some unintentional errors. Grim
Edited By Grimnir77 on 06/26/06 10:57
Note 2 - Elf as a valid alternate: As an alternative, although I prefer the HPs (thus human), might consider the elf class. They get a +2 Dex Bonus (but at a cost of -2 Con); as such, elf would net you +1 AB and +1 AC over the above, but HPs would fall to 372, and Fort to 26 (unbuffed). This, in turn, would impact final skills as follows (again, all other things remaining exactly the same):
Skills if an Elf (188): Heal 3(5), Hide 39(50), Move Silently 39(50), Open Lock 1(12), Spellcraft 20(20), Tumble 35(46), UMD 31(30)
While I prefer the HPs, since this build does have ED and crippling strike, elf is a valid alternative to human. To my knowledge, an elf would also not suffer any XP penalty on this build, due to their affinities and the split-balance either. So, for all you elf fans out there who just know how good scouts does an elf make, this should come as welcome news
Edited By TyrTemplar on 06/24/06 07:58
Have you tested this build Deborah? I think not, since you would have realized the error of the longsword. It does not work with Weapon finesse.
BAB: 27 AB (max, naked): 41 (melee), 38 (ranged) / AB +48 (GMW & Cat’s Grace Only)
+5 Divine Favor +1 Bless +1 Aid +1 Prayer +3 Divine Wrath +5 Holy Sword -- AB 64 (Self-Buffs & Cat’s/UMD Only, No Equipment) --- AB 84-Plus (+20 using a Scroll of True Strike, still no equipment)
*Calculation does not factor in KD considerations.
+20 is all you'll ever get to AB, it's capped by the game engine. Let's assume you buff DEX to max, getting 47 AB. Then you get magical weapons, all your buffs, Truestrike, God's help and a woman's fury. You still won't breach +20, so the most you can get is 67. Ever. The only thing that can breach this cap is Smiting.
Also, GMW and holysword doesn't stack. They both give +5 enhancement, and bonuses of the same type do not stack. Except Dodge. These last mistakes to AB can happen even if you test your build,(well, the stacking of GMW and holysword had been avoided) but the other mistakes would have been easily seen.
The morale and "naughty girl" stamp you get from uncle Grim is because of this: Test your builds. I was tempted to lock this thread until you pm'ed me you correct stats, but the build seems to work so I decided to let it slide for now. PM me or any of the other moderators your correct values. I could easily have edited them in, but I want you to pm it. I repeat for next time Test your builds. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Edited By Grimnir77 on 06/24/06 11:57
K, its time for me to be a "knight" to fdefend the honor of our fair maiden
Grim, maybe we can again point out how AB works! I think people are confused because we look at some amazin posts and we see things like:
AB (mundane Scythe): 37 AB (self buffed): 58 (DF, Bless, Aid, BS, prayer, HS, DW) AB (max): 63 (capped STR)
Smite Evil: +8/+14 capped CHA
Max AB: 77 capped AB, STR, CHA on a smite
or
Quote: Blood And Faith (Bard 4\Cleric 26\RDD 10) Mithdradates
Advantages
-Good AB. Desipite only having a 25 BAB, he has a 42 AB with a Scimitar. With buffs he can easily get a 66 without magic items, 68 with +4 Strength boost from items.
or
Quote: Harbinger of Sorrow (Cleric19/SD1/Bard20) Grimnir77 Moderator
BAB: 25 AB (max, naked): 25 (melee), should be enough for your use, explained later. Ab buffs: Bulls, Emp for +3 from STR. Then you can EASILY cap it. Bless, Aid, Prayer, Battletide, GMW, Divine Favor and Divine power caps it. Then you have Bardsong and Warcry. Plus Cursesong to lower opponents AC. Actually, fully self buffed your attack-sequence Hasted would be: 48/43/38/48/48. Add to that cursesong and it's decent. 27 (ranged)
I am soo short of time, but what I am trying to say is that we should give a mini seminar about AB, cuz we are all confused! btw, I only use these quoted builds because these are builds from players we all look to for guidance and we are now confused about ab. Maybe we need a mini STICKIED seminar on ab?
now im moderator enemy number 1 I was just trying to be my knightly self
Fixed quoting. not sure I was supposed to though..... Grim
Edited By Grimnir77 on 06/24/06 22:57
You're probably right, mister avado. Now, do me favour and write the article and I'll just stickify it I'm getting back to KotOR myself. Have fun! _________________ "We keep our Feast of Feasts, sure of our bourne, Our aims self-same: The Guest of Guests, friend Zarathustra, came! The world now laughs, the grisly veil was torn, And Light and Dark were one that wedding-morn."
Basically, everything stacks until you hit the +20 cap. Exceptions would be enhancements of the same flavor, such as Holy Avenger and Greater Magic Weapon, or GMW and a weapon that is already +5, etc.
The +20 AB cap can be crossed with things like Smite Evil/Good.
Item bonuses which count toward the cap Weapon Enhancement bonus Weapon Attack Bonus
Arcane spells which count toward the cap True strike Magic weapon Greater magic weapon Warcry
Divine spells which count toward the cap Blade Thirst Bless Divine favor Magic fang (and Greater) Aid Greater magic weapon Prayer Divine power Awaken Battletide Holy Avenger
Special abilities which count toward the cap Bard - Bard Song Champion of Torm - Divine Wrath Cleric - War domain's Battle Mastery _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Edited By grizzled_dwarflord on 06/24/06 19:01
LOL, it aint that hard the AB.. but a guide could be of use, knowledge doesn't comes from the sky.
Even so, Grim is right, if you test the build the Character Sheet won't show +84 AB, as well as DEX won't give damage nor Weapon Finesse will work with a longsword, when you test it you can see the "Why the hell isn't this stuff working? it should have so blasting boosted stats!!!"
I do like the build, the concept is ok and it's power is decent I think... but I found some other error there: Tumble. Tumble gives 1 AC for every 5 base levels, DEX modifier does not affect it, it will only affect the Tumble checks, so you should take 40 Tumble instead of 35, by all means.
As for me, I'd take more Paladin pre-epic to get more BAB, I say you should take no more than 8 Rogue pre-epic.
Hey, everyone: Av, Grizz, you're great knights! Maiden rescued
Thanks so much for the chart, Grizz; that is just so helpful. It's a vast sky out there, Thax, it really is, for me at least at this junction, still trying to figure all of this stuff out, as to what counts and what doesn't - getting there, almost, and now with that chart - thank you so much. It's a good class-lesson Short, sweet, and worth every penny (seriously, thanks!). Come back to that in a second.
As to damage, could we please change that to a short swort, 1d6, +*Str mod. (which would be +2 Bull's in the list); that's a pure error on my part, for which I do apologize, due to late night post. (I'm in the midst of writing a medieval history piece and well, while it's great stuff for character concepts, these late nights are killing me (sorry about that)
Now, back to that wonderful chart (and it is!) - I agree that we should post Grizz' chart on a sticky or something; it's short, sweet, and very helpful (trying to hunt all this stuff down, I tells ya; I *do* test my builds but didn't take this one PvP, so wasn't sure how TS works, as AB 41 unbuffed even with a lower BAB worked fine in PvM/mod. Should be okay for PvP, but maybe with a bit more tweaking, could get it up just a bit more (I'm worried about XP penalties, etc., and that's why I settled on the split I did; but it may be possible, with a bit more fine-tuning, you know I'll have a look (thanks thax, and nice to see ya); then there's True Strike....
I know that TS is great for rougues, etc., and that they generally can't live without it in PvP, so added it on; wasn't sure about how the TS & cap thing works (obviously). You folks have and continue to inspire me to look into non-obvious combos, and the like, and that's wonderful). And Grim, I'd "beg" you to do it edit for me just this once; I'm gonna look into some tweaking, to see about the BAB thing as per thax (yeah, he's okay, but higher base to start, if possible, always good) . . . may take a day or so, so....pretty please? If there are any changes, I'll pm you everything when I'm satisfied (um, what if I say pretty please and add a horde of dragon's gold on top? just this once).
Apologies and thank yous to everyone (& Thax, as always, I appreciate your challenges! - back soon
Edited By TyrTemplar on 06/24/06 22:47
Don't worry. I have made the initial edits, just pm me if you have more of them. No need to apologize, I choose to believe you have tested it. We all make mistakes. No need for bribes, but I shalll graciously accept. I forgot to add one thing in my rampage up there: Very good build, nice final damage for a dexer.
AB. Grizz has a good one. Basically it's like this. Ab with mundane chosen weapon. Add stat buffs(max +6 more AB). On top of that all you'll ever get is 20 more, counting song, weapon enhancements and all. Bane of enemies can breach it. The Druid +2 in natural surroundings breach it. Smite breach it. Then there is AC lowering capacities to help. Enhancement bonuses from two different sources do not stack.
Quote: Posted 06/24/06 13:39:36 (GMT) -- avado
now im moderator enemy number 1 I was just trying to be my knightly self
Rather our friend. We have grown into a bit too much, so I apologize for that. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Edited By Grimnir77 on 06/24/06 23:36
I figured I'd be a rebel and actually comment on the build (as opposed to speculating on the mysteries of the AB cap ).
At first I was wondering how a paladin/COT could possibly get by with a charisma of 9, considering that one their most popular abilities (Divine Grace) would be reduced to nothingness.
However I can see that this build can get by without it (quite easily too), with a nice little mixture of UMD and actually being able to cast spells .
Just a thought though, did you consider replacing 4 levels of paladin with COT?
That would give you an additional +2 to saves (sacred defense), Divine Wrath would give +5 bonuses instead (although I'm not sure how it would work, considering it will only last for -1 round), and you'll get 2 bonus feats.
Regardless of what you do, this is still a good build (I like that it has so many hitpoints for a dexer, and it's sneak attacks will hurt )
The problem with going for less Pally is that she loses castings from the good Pally spellbook, Holysword among other things and the duration will suffer. Going for 10 CoT is a good suggestion, but it comes with a cost. _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG
Quote: Posted 06/24/06 23:14:13 (GMT) -- Big Meph
Just a thought though, did you consider replacing 4 levels of paladin with COT?
I wouldn't do that, you'd lose the fourth level spells altogether. _________________ "We keep our Feast of Feasts, sure of our bourne, Our aims self-same: The Guest of Guests, friend Zarathustra, came! The world now laughs, the grisly veil was torn, And Light and Dark were one that wedding-morn."
The problem with going for less Pally is that she loses castings from the good Pally spellbook, Holysword among other things and the duration will suffer. Going for 10 CoT is a good suggestion, but it comes with a cost.
*Yuk* That slipped my mind completely. Oh well, forget I mentioned it.
Edited By Big Meph on 06/25/06 02:43
Thanks much for your compliments on this build, everyone; his charm "snuck up" on me, too - Glad you like him; I see him as a medieval "007 - James Bond" - As to the AB & damage stuff, sorry once again about the late night error. Basically, it's like this:
AB +41 unbuffed (+42 if an elf), add True Strike (+20 weaponry cap), then boost Dex for another +6, for a total AB +67 (+68 if an elf). Can breach this cap with smite, ie., +3-4 from cha, with Eagle's and Aura buffs; if raised +12 (ie., capped), you get a final smite bonus of a whopping +5 AB for his smite strike
His real "power" comes from his mix of UMD/spells, & he can deal some pretty nice damage (sneak and combat), with decent HPs, too, (as Meph, Finn and Grim point out -thanks & well put More COT would mean slightly better saves, but not at the cost of high level spells for, since access to them (and most of their duration) depends on pally level, which can't be bought. Anyway, he's some nice protection spells, and then there's UMD.
choices, choices ... I kinda like that holy sword of his though (and Grim, thought that you liked Pally's with holy swords, too? His real "weakness" if you can call it that, is in the skills department: as a rougue, he's thin; while he has what he needs, would've been nice to get some trap skills in there for instance, but not a necessity or problem.
Still looking into mini-tweaks, but I dunno. To avoid XP penalties would mean either giving up pally spell access or extra sneak, neither of which I'm wanting to do, as would detract from the overall build; then, if we stop and think about it, with unbuffed AB 41 (42 if elf), with all that other stuff, it's kinda neat for a dexer. Plus, he's got KD, his spells/UMD buffs, and of course access to UMD/True Strike...
Thanks again, everyone (and once again to Grizz, for his very useful chart and to Grim, for further info (hmmm, Sherlock & Watson, in the mysteries of Bioware's cap, which mystery is solved ~ Tyr
P.S. To Thax, while I'm still looking into it, must admit it's looking more and more like this build is the one - you remember what happened last time I tried to "sell" XP penalties on a build? -
pss. to Meph & Finn: yep, we cuts up that pally pretty darn good among the three of us, didn't we . . . OOPS. Is that the Rogue coming out? Nah, this one's Lawful Good :lol"
Edited By TyrTemplar on 06/26/06 05:18
Dang, lol, I had a TyrPaladin flashback for a second
I like the idea behind the build. I usually don't like to see rogue and paladin in the same builds (I have never seen a Lawful Good rogue), but I can see why in NWN you would want to do it. Nice extra damage and feats for a dex based holy warrior type in the rogue class. I do agree that that you should keep the current levels of paladin, as you really need that holy sword spell. Again, nice build idea. _________________ If everyone is thinking alike, then someone is failing to think.
Like the build...Intresting concept, I think...One thing, about the AB Cap...I believe the Character Sheet WILL actually show you as having a +84 AB (It has in my experience, anyway), but if you fight a monster/PC/whatever, the Combat Log should show your real AB. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Edited By DragonRaider69 on 06/26/06 05:51
Wait one second....hold that pally steed -- no sooner did I post that I was having difficulty finding a way to raise BAB/AB witout XP or certain abilities pains, when suddenly . . . (alright, Thax, everyone, watcha think of this? -- BAB 28 (near-warrior) & AB unbuffed at 42 (43 elf), and even more HPs? everything else the same, but for -1 AC & -1 Spellcraft bonus (in exchange for max tumble, and even more UMD
Medieval Scout (in Revision) Rogue(17), Paladin(17), Champion of Torm(6), human
I pm'ed you a little info on the xp-penalty thing. I just want to say: You worry to much. . An elf would get xp-penalty though. But not halflings, humans or Half-Elves. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Quote: Wait one second....hold that pally steed -- no sooner did I post that I was having difficulty finding a way to raise BAB/AB witout XP or certain abilities pains, when suddenly . . . (alright, Thax, everyone, watcha think of this? -- BAB 28 (near-warrior) & AB unbuffed at 42 (43 elf), and even more HPs? everything else the same, but for -1 AC & -1 Spellcraft bonus (in exchange for max tumble, and even more UMD
What do I think about what? you didn't wrote the build changed, but I suppose you did what I told you to let only 8 Rogue pre-epic to gain 1 BAB and changed Tumble to 40... regardless, why did you lost 1 AC if you got more Tumble?
Quote: P.S. To Thax, while I'm still looking into it, must admit it's looking more and more like this build is the one - you remember what happened last time I tried to "sell" XP penalties on a build? -
The one? why limit yourself to such a little number?
Dang, lol, I had a TyrPaladin flashback for a second
I like the idea behind the build. I usually don't like to see rogue and paladin in the same builds (I have never seen a Lawful Good rogue), but I can see why in NWN you would want to do it. Nice extra damage and feats for a dex based holy warrior type in the rogue class. I do agree that that you should keep the current levels of paladin, as you really need that holy sword spell. Again, nice build idea.
I can't believe you did it! DUDE, its like Beetlejuice! OMG!
Yeah, rog/paladin can be a hard thing to grasp, rp wise. I think we had a discussion about this type of thing on another post (non-rog rogues), and it is a similar thing here. Because the "rogue" is such a versatile class, like fighter (what is a fighter?) there can be ALOT of range to playing it. A lawful good rogue would be a person who has learned to be devastating in combat, picking out the weaknesses in his opponent, yet, all the while, he fights ONLY for the good of the greater good. It's like the strong quiet type who is just SOOO nice, but so help yee god when you piss him off! It just wouldnt be prudent in a build like this to take OL, DT etc.
Alright, here's the Scout, as revised; I was concerned about XP penalties if an elf, as like the idea of that (once again, I prefer human for HPs, but elf works very well, too (see, comparative stats below).
Medieval Scout (Revised) Rogue(17), Paladin(17), Champion of Torm(6) Human, Lawful Good
NOTE (1): Does not include scroll buffs available to this character via UMD; Note (2): Stealth Skills Maximized, has Crippling Strike & Epic Dodge feats.
Combat Vitals:
BAB: 28, AB: No Buffs: +42 (melee), +39 (ranged) Melee AB: +49 [UMD/Cat’s & (Greater Magic Weapon –OR- Holy Sword) Only] +1 Bless +5 Divine Favor +1 Prayer +1 Aid +1 Deafening Clang -- AB +58 (Self-Buffs Only, No Equipment) -- +3 Divine Wrath (Duration: 3-4 Rounds, with Eagle’s & Aura of Glory Only) -- + 3-4 Smite AB Bonus (with Eagle’s & Aura of Glory Only, No equipment)
Melee AB Capped: UMD/True Strike (+20 AB) and Dex-boost (+6 AB), AB +68 (plus 3-5 Smite AB Bonus)
*Calculation does not factor in KD considerations.
Other Enhancements: Bless Weapon: +2d6 divine damage vs. Undead
Turn Undead (HD): 14+1d20
Defense Vitals: AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 28/31 +4 UMD/Haste scroll +2 UMD/Cat’s Grace -- AC 37 (Does not include Paladin Protection Spells, or Equipment)
ELF Race -- Comparative Statistics +2 Dex/-2 Con (racial adjustment); HPs: 412 +1 Defense – i.e., AC: 29/32 (naked/mundane armor) +1 Offense – i.e., AB +43 (melee), +40 (ranged), / AB +69 (melee) at the cap, plus smite
Edited By TyrTemplar on 06/26/06 17:51
For the RP Aspect...Personally, I don't like it myself, BUT, I can see how you could RP it. Think of it as a Paladin that would do anything (Sneak Attack an opponent, set traps, etc.) to see that justice prevailed.
As to revision: what we've done, is bump COT up pre-epic, while maintaining split b/w rogue and pally (for better BAB/AB, 1 extra fort save, and no xp penalties for our elf friends, I think). This opened up 1 extra feat pre-epic, ie toughness; lost a feat in epic, i.e., Armor Skin (hence, AC loss) - gets 1 AC back though by maxing Tumble, plus a few other minor skill tweaks, for more UMD - still don't get any trap skills though
Then, as Dark points out, not exactly the kinda character you take out crypt robbing (not only can't he disarm the traps, but he won't - and he'll likely arrest ya for even asking ). Yeah, LG: probably not yer first choice as party's rogue, but as a dex/stealth holy ftr, why not?! (and ya know he won't take yer wallet Glad to hear you like the concept, too (I know, not everyone will, seems at first glance kinda odd ....
& Av - well put! & Thanks, yeah: James Bond type; FBI or US Navy Seal/Green Beret Special Ops, MI5, or your very own fabled RCMP special forces (without that neat red uniform
OH, btw: not exactly sure about this T-Pal guy, but eh hem, .... (c'mon now, let's have some fun, learn some stuff (I know I am I "get" that not everyone's into history & stuff as I am; gotta say, though, these line of characters I've recently brought out got me a ton of emails, all positive, and new EU friends (what -- a yank who actually realizes the earth existed before 1776? (I know what some folks think over there, it's terribly unfortunate, but some of us do try and understand
edit -- hey, dragon - nice to see ya, yeah, not yer first choice if you are a "rogue fan" used to doin' rogue things of course; he's the cop type (well put!)
Thanks, everyone, for indulging me at times (as friends often do
You're probably right! (and thanks again for your help and info - appreciate it!)
sorry, needs to make a correction re: turn undead (HD)on the build as revised - should read 14+2d6 ; with pally SR being 17+1d20 (arrrr! ) if um, um, we could just edit that?
OK, if everyone's happy with this one as revised, giving it the good guild once more look over (which no one can like this guild do --- if we could post the revised version up top (unless you want me to repost; thinking though, with some of my past builds being marked final, then final v.2 etc. in past, can get kinda confusing, (not to mention taking up space on pulse cap).
Lemme know what the preferred protocols are, and welcome of course everyone's continuing comments
(thanks again, everyone)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 06/26/06 19:29
Moved an off-topic post here: Click Here
Thanks. _________________ "We keep our Feast of Feasts, sure of our bourne, Our aims self-same: The Guest of Guests, friend Zarathustra, came! The world now laughs, the grisly veil was torn, And Light and Dark were one that wedding-morn."
Thanks, Finn. (t'was a D&D test thing, an RP thing: me bad Nor can I by any means take full credit on the sneak-pally concept as it's inspired by Finn (& James Bond, too - all kiddin' aside, Finn's got a gnomish sneaker-smiter, which is neat. He focused on smite, whereas this one's spell stuff, and, great news, there's 1 more sneaker-pally up, by Meph, focussing on divine stuff (and neat, too As such, 3 nice guy/James Bond-types or what have you to chose from which I just think is neat (& thanks for the edits; to all who helped out/commented on this build, merci & thank you!, and will repost this character, as we've revised him soon.
now im moderator enemy number 1 
I was just trying to be my knightly self 
Rather than go for pally smite, etc., went for Pally spell access (and should be a pain for arcane casters in particular, while having the ability to go toe-to-toe melee, if necessary 
I'm getting back to KotOR myself. Have fun! 
).
Oh well, forget I mentioned it.