Hi everybody! I haven't posted in a while (2 weeks), because I've been on holiday in sydney (with no access to NWN), but since there was nothing to do there, I made builds to pass the time. So I'll be posting quite a few builds in the next few days (including a build based on "what character I would be in the D&D world" from the general discussion thread).
Recently though, I've taken it upon myself to rebuild my older builds using the knowledge that I have now. This was my first ever build, it was a rogue that was designed to be able to handle almost any problem.
Opposition was too strong? Lay traps, persuade, scrolls. Spell casters? Hide in plain sight during spell casting. Pick the lock, use the equipment, be all that you can be.
Here it is!
Swiss Army Rogue, Rogue 35/Fighter 4/Shadowdancer 1
Race – Halfling
Alignment – Chaotic whatever
Playable from 1 - 40
PvP/PvM – Works well in both.
Stats: Starting (Ending) STR 8 DEX 20 (34) CON 8 WIS 8 INT 14 CHA 14
*These aren't strict, although I would suggest keeping toughness... it's HP is low enough as it is.
Skills Total – 404 (you’ve gotta love rogues ) Dis. Trap 43 Hide 43 Listen 41 Move S. 42 Open Lock 33 Persuasion 43 Search 43 Set Trap 33 Tumble 40 UMD 43
Saves Fort – 19 Reflex - 34 Will - 16
Now I realise that 14 CHA and persuade aren't helping this build at all, it was really just there for the sake of flavour. I'd probably be better off sticking with 8 CHA, and using the 6 ability points somewhere else.
Strengths: -High AC + Epic Dodge + Self Concealment V makes him practically untouchable in close combat -Sneak Attack bonus 18d6 + Hide in plain sight = a pain in the behind -Very versatile
Weaknesses: -Abysmal HP, Will and fortitude saves -Has most of the same problems as every other dex based rogue (critical immunity). -AB is rather low
(Re)Fixed AB and AC - Kail Pendragon
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 08/08/06 10:21
Drop some Rogue levels for Fighter to get EWF, EP and EWS. You're giving up too much just for some sneak dice and a couple of skillpoints. _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Drop some Rogue levels for Fighter to get EWF, EP and EWS. You're giving up too much just for some sneak dice and a couple of skillpoints.
A couple!?! If you're suggesting what I think you are that's a loss of 2 epic rogue feats and 48 skill points... point taken though.
Although that loss of skill points would probably mean the loss of a skill completely (which would in turn lessen the point of this build - versatility). This wasn't really meant to be a power build afterall.
Edited By Big Meph on 07/12/06 15:40
Your naked AC is good, but your HP is low... heh, how did you expected HP with 8 CON? You actually take Self Concealment V at level 37, which means your DEX can be lowered without losing SFV... to gain more HP... lowering DEX to 19 would give you 3 points, although maybe lowering it more than that would be a problem... whatever you like.
Agreed, EWF, EWS and EP are great feats which you should take.
EDIT: Just noticed you didn't take pre-epic WS... what do you plan to do when the enemy is immune to sneaks?
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 07/12/06 15:48
Absolutely drop your CHA to 8 and put those points into CON. That alone will net you 120 HPs.
I'd also suggest dropping some Rogue for FTR levels. Perhaps 2 more FTR and 2 less Rogue. You don't lose any bonus feats that way, but you can at least pick up EWF and EWS (I suggest dropping Armor Skin to make room). You'd also get to do a Discipline skill dump if you wish. _________________ This signature will self-destruct in 5 seconds...
Good point, why did you took CHA in the first place? this class spread does not gain anything with it.
Good point, why did you took CHA in the first place? this class spread does not gain anything with it.
Like I explained earlier, this is not a power build, and CHA/persuade were taken for flavour/roleplaying reasons (what with this being an rpg and all).
Also, even with WS and EWS, an extra 5 damage on top of my sneak attacks isn't going to frighten (let alone hurt) anyone... or at least it shouldn't. Against regular opponents (hopefully lacking true-sight/see invisibility/high spot-listen skills), I use the cheese tactics of sneak, hide, repeat.
Quote: Posted 07/12/06 15:48:34 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din I'd also suggest dropping some Rogue for FTR levels. Perhaps 2 more FTR and 2 less Rogue.
I'd be quite alright with that, were it not for that fact that would make this an exact copy of another build on this forum (as far as levels go).
Lastly, discipline in a dex-based build is next to useless (unless I'm versing other dex based builds).
Edited By Big Meph on 07/12/06 16:09
Id' actually move Mobility to level 18 to replace "Thug". You could then move weapon focus to level 6 and take weapon specialization on level 7.
In Epic, I would replace Rogue at levels 39 & 40 with Fighter and take Epic Weapon Focus at 39 and Epic Weapon Specialization as the Fighter bonus feat on level 40.
Net result would be a loss of 2AC and 1d6 Sneak Attack for an AB increase of 2 and a guaranteed 6 points of damage. You won't lose any Rogue Bonus feats, but it would cost you 12 skill points (which you have plenty of).
As far as the Charisma Points, I'm with the others and would recommend placing those points in Con or Str. If you look at your persuade skill, you would still have a net 40 in persuade even with an 8 in Chr. From an RP perspective you could play yourself as an ugly but persuasive little fellow.
Just as an FYI, your AB and AC would be 1 higher than you quoted in your post due to the Halfling racial bonuses. 26 base + 12 Dex + 1 Size + 1 WF = 38 AB. By taking the advice above, you could achieve an AB of 40 and still have a naked AC of 31 (10 base + 8 Tumble + 1 Size + 12 Dex).
I like the build, high Rogue levels for high "Sneaks", tons of skills, ED and SCV.
End of the day, the choice is yours _________________ In order to find his equal, an Irishman is forced to talk to God. Yes, Father. The Almighty says don't change the subject; just answer the &%$#@& question.
Edited By Highlander44 on 07/12/06 17:11
Quote: Posted 07/12/06 17:08:28 (GMT) -- Highlander44 From an RP perspective you could play yourself as an ugly but persuasive little fellow.
Actually, when I played this I was CG, and as such I was playing the build as more of a charmer, then the cunningly persuasive type (which would be more of an evil/neutral thing). Still I see where you're coming from.
Quote: Just as an FYI, your AB and AC would be 1 higher than you quoted in your post due to the Halfling racial bonuses.
I never remember about that, because for some reason they aren't included when you look at your character details (unless you're looking at your feats).
Quote: I like the build, high Rogue levels for high "Sneaks", tons of skills, ED and SCV.
Well you seem to be the first... wanna start a club?
Quote: Posted 07/12/06 16:01:17 (GMT) -- Big Meph
Like I explained earlier, this is not a power build, and CHA/persuade were taken for flavour/roleplaying reasons (what with this being an rpg and all).
Meph, if this is not a power build, then why start with DEX at 20? I understand the desire to reach ED and SC V, as well as netting the high AC and finessed AB and all that, but with a 20 DEX it leaves you wanting in some other key areas (8 STR and 8 CON).
Would it not be possible to start with an 18 DEX, get all the same DEXer goodies, and have maybe 10 STR/12 CON?
Just my 2 pennies...
Hmmm, I can understand an RP perspective, but not if that's making you resist nothing, +3 persuade checks versus 120 HP, survival is a part of the game, and you need to level up to increase checks too. Dead guys don't level up easily, you might like that HP at any rate.
Quote: Generally what I do against any enemy that's too strong... traps and spells.If that doesn't work, hide and hope they go away.
forgive me if I don't think it's an useful tactic to hope they go away. Again, I suggest EWS only to fight sneak immune enemies, which come up to at least all undeads, contructs and elementals, which are quite a lot, I don't know as a fact if it would be enough, but you could get in troubles... Or else persuade them not to kill you
I do like the Self Concealment V and sneak attack power, but I don't rush to say "it's awesomely powerful" for the obvious reasons of low HP and low base damage (and you say it's not a powerbuild); it is quite ok.
You aren't likely to ever run into a situation where you'll need charisma or focus bonuses to your persuade checks when you have a high persuade skill. And if you do need such a bonus, you can buff your charisma and/or have a persuade item.
Extra hitpoints is extremely good, however.
Definitely trade off rogue levels for fighter ones. You won't miss 2 or 3d6 extra on your sneak attacks, but epic specialization and other combat feats will really improve your ability. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Hmmm, I can understand an RP perspective, but not if that's making you resist nothing, +3 persuade checks versus 120 HP, survival is a part of the game, and you need to level up to increase checks too. Dead guys don't level up easily, you might like that HP at any rate.
I'll explain my actions a little bit better. As I said in my original post, this build is a rebuild of one of my older builds. When I made this build, the last RPG I'd played was a game called "Arcanum". Anyone else who's played it may understand where I'm coming from.
Well anyway, as I was saying, in arcanum there weren't any classes as such, but to improve your skills you had to keep constantly improving your stats (hence why I started with the "high" CHA).
The reason I put so much into persuade is that in Arcanum, persuade was about 8-10 times more useful then in NWN (especially considering that if you were good enough, you could convince the last boss to kill himself).
Quote: forgive me if I don't think it's an useful tactic to hope they go away.
Heretic! Be gone from my post!
Quote: I do like the Self Concealment V and sneak attack power, but I don't rush to say "it's awesomely powerful" for the obvious reasons of low HP and low base damage (and you say it's not a powerbuild); it is quite ok.
Did I say it was awesomely powerful? I'm not being sardonic or anything. I'm quite serious because it was 2 am and I don't remember much. If I did then I take it back. The main point of this build was versatility, sort of like a shifter in a way. While I don't excel in any real aspect (aside from hiding ), I am still good enough to get by.
Definitely trade off rogue levels for fighter ones. You won't miss 2 or 3d6 extra on your sneak attacks, but epic specialization and other combat feats will really improve your ability.
As I said earlier, that would make this build almost an exact copy of some other rogue builds (I'm not the only one who thought that a level of SD, a handful of fighter levels, and 30+ rogue levels would make a good build).
I had a few thoughts to submit (I realize some of these were already mentioned):
Stats (inclusive of racial-modifier): Starting (Ending) STR 12 +1 DEX 18 +4 (32 +11) CON 12 +1 WIS 10 INT 14 +2 CHA 10
The key advantage to putting the 2 points into WIS is the extra point in Will Save, as it won't do much to help the 41 Listen score.
Overall, I really like the look of the build.
--- Angel Of Death 1982
Hey buddy, glad to see you made it on here. I'd welcome you, but I'm quite sure that Kail or Anuis would have already done that.
Quote: Posted 07/18/06 05:16:57 (GMT) -- Big Meph
Hey buddy, glad to see you made it on here. I'd welcome you, but I'm quite sure that Kail or Anuis would have already done that.
Thank you, Big Meph. Yes, Anuis kindly welcomed me in. _________________ Angel Of Death 1982
forgive me if I don't think it's an useful tactic to hope they go away. 
)
You won't lose any Rogue Bonus feats, but it would cost you 12 skill points (which you have plenty of).