OK, this is my first build here, so it may not be as good as it could be, any help you feel you can give will be greatly appreciated. This build focuses on stunning fists, it is especially good when used against mages with other characters to kill the stunned mage quickly
Race: Elf Alignment: Any Lawful (Evil eyes are best)
Stunning Fist DC: 56
It's quite a good build from what I can see. I'm not sure I'd play it, (no-offence, I just prefer my non-kama monks to STR based) but it looks like it works well enough.
2 thoughts though. Firstly, you probably would be better off replacing the last 4 Improved Stunning Fists with Great WIS.
You will lose 6 DC on your stunning fist and gain 2 AC, but believe me when I say that you will rarely come up against anything that can pass a will save of 50. And even if you do, chances are that you're better in combat then them (except maybe a dragon shaped shifter).
Or they could be replaced with Great DEX to increase your AB instead (in which case you would lose 8 stunning fist DC).
Other thought is, what do you do against undead? (or anything immune to criticals and/or mindspells for that matter).
Edited By Big Meph on 07/20/06 00:42
good points, but first, let me improve on your suggestions. Why not choose Armor skin and epic prowess plus two imp stun fists instead of wisdom? armor skin gives the same ac bonus as 4 points into either wisdom or dexterity, and epic prowess the same as two dexterity, so you can get the same benefits, from just two feats. Also, i think stunning fist is a fortitude save isn't it?
Against undead? this is what you do... you die, nah, just kiddin, against undeads, you have your bludgeoning fists, like all monks, and are basically a dex monk, without the extra ab, and a little less ac. So it just means you lose your greatest skill, it's just the same as what happens when a crit. hitter goes against an undead. You've lost your greatest bonus, but you've still got some damage left over. Besides, every build has its weakness, this one's weakness is high saves/crit. immunes. Also, i agree, perhaps i have gone a bit overboard on dc, with +12 stat equipment, your dc reaches 62. But the bonus of the huge dc, is that nobody can save, and you've got less ab then you normally would, so you'd be hoping, that the single stunning fist you land on them, is going to be near impossible to stop.
One suggestion I would make is drop 10 monk levels for 10 CoT levels, take 4 pre-epic for +1 to your AB and an extra attack (with your low AB you might end up in a couple hit on a 20 situations and an extra attack helps there) and take 6 in epic for 2 great wisdoms and epic prowess (which would let you increase dexterity twice, instead of wisom). You would lose 4 to 9 (not sure if it's character level or class level that affects the DC) from your stunning fist DC, but you would gain signficant save bonuses (+7 to fortitude, +8 to refexes, +4 to will) +3 to AB, +1 to AC and an extra attack.
It's a pretty good build except for the AB which can be problematic, particularly since stunning fist isn't a touch attack so opponents get their full AC to defend against it (it also only lasts 3 rounds). _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
Also, i think stunning fist is a fortitude save isn't it?
Just go through my first reply, and whenever I wrote the word "will" replace it with the word "fortitude".
EDIT: Also, do you really need "Extra Stunning Attacks"? What I mean is, seeing as you are using a pure monk, by the time you hit level 8, that extra 3 stunning fists is going to seem rather useless. And once you hit 40 .
Edited By Big Meph on 07/20/06 05:17
The DC is calculated like this: 10 + (Char.level /2) + Wis modifier + feats. There you go Mith. Going CoT would not decrease his DC just because he drops out on monk. _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Edited By Grimnir77 on 07/20/06 05:58
I'm not a very frequent user of Multiclassing, and I like to prove that pure class characters are better then you think.
No, you don't need extra stunning fist, but i was running low on feat ideas (stealthy is another example)
Losing levels in monk loses another bonus you have. Losing ten monk levels, loses 10 spell resistance, 2 ac, and 30 percent speed bringing your speed down to 200% from 230, or 400% from 427.15 if you have haste. You also gain 3 feats from taking 10 CoT, not 5, because you would normally gain 2 as a monk. 2 of those feats are lost pre-epic, meaning you only get 1 more epic feat. That's some reasons why i kept it pure classed
Quote: Posted 07/20/06 09:50:51 (GMT) -- Mars_of_war I'm not a very frequent user of Multiclassing, and I like to prove that pure class characters are better then you think.
I know what you mean. I used to be the exact same way. My first three characters were a pure monk, a pure rogue, and a pure sorcerer.
Quote: No, you don't need extra stunning fist, but i was running low on feat ideas (stealthy is another example)
Might I suggest Great Fortitude instead? It would still help to increase you fortitude, and still be more useful then extra stunning attacks.
Quote: Losing levels in monk loses another bonus you have. Losing ten monk levels, loses 10 spell resistance, 2 ac, and 30 percent speed bringing your speed down to 200% from 230, or 400% from 427.15 if you have haste. You also gain 3 feats from taking 10 CoT, not 5, because you would normally gain 2 as a monk. 2 of those feats are lost pre-epic, meaning you only get 1 more epic feat. That's some reasons why i kept it pure classed
I just thought you might like to know that haste only gives you a 50% speed increase. It doesn't double your speed. Also, a monk receives a 10% speed increase, every 3 levels, starting from level 3.
Which means that a level 40 monk goes an extra 130% faster then other characters (gaining 10% more speed at 3,6,9,12,15,18,21,24,27,30,33,36,39). So a level 40 monk with haste is 180% faster then a non-hasted non-monk character.
Edited By Big Meph on 07/20/06 10:51
that would be true, IF nwn was done properly, but it isn't. Make a level 30 monk, and give him haste equipment, and he will move more then 50% faster. Also, my numbers were total percent speed, so normal people move at 100% speed, and level 40 monks move at 230% speed
Not sure how important this is with a pure Monk who gets a variety of AC sources and moves at nearly DM speed, but to what extent does this guy get chewed up pre-epic for lack of Uncanny Dodge? _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
This is pretty much the build i play on bastion of war, though i don't play very often, and i have found it very effective, because in that kind of environment, you can run in, make a few stunning fist attempts, then run away again, before they have the chance to strike you. Same goes for normal PvM servers, provided they don't have crit. immune, they can get pummeled by you. Perhaps people underestimate Stunning fist a bit. It's three rounds that your foe is stunned for, if you know what you're doing, you can keep your foe from attacking you in most cases, thanks to improved knockdown, and that stratagy works right from level six when you get it. No epic dodge, well, like i said, in most cases, you don't want them to get the chance to attack you. You move at godly speeds, attempt a stun a few times, then move at godly speeds away if they aren't stunned. That's why the build has a lack of discipline. Because you don't give them the chance to knock you down.
I've never played BoW, so I can't intelligently comment, but the tactic is a sound one, provided you have a way of "finishing" the opponent once he's down. I've played a non-monk who relied on Stunning fist to paralyze an opponent, and then he finished him by delivering a ton of sneak dice at a much higher AB. I'm not sure if this cat here has the oomph to sustain a "finishing". The only thing you have are 1-20 fists and whatever strength bonus you have added via items. It seems that while you can Stun with high success an unsuspecting opponent, you have little left to do once the opponent is stunned. If your opponent is a DwD, I don't see how'll you'll take them. Same goes for a Shifter, or anybody who can go into Iron Golem form, or Undead Shape, or any Mage or Sorcerer who just Sanctuaries and puts up a Mestils and Premonition, or any opponent with PM levels, or RDD builds, and even to some extent high level Barbs. The only characters who seem like they would fall victim would be typical AAs or the gratuitous Fighter10/Bard2/WM28s in the world. PvM is even more problematic, for the higher you go in level, typically the higher DR and Immunities you come across in Boss encounters.
However, if in BoW you're referring to team tactics, then I can see a fellow like this performing gloriously. You send this guy in up front, who hits quick, leaves the opponents standing there in a daze, while the Assassin/Shadowdancer materializes from the shadows and just lays waste in 3 rounds everyone with massive sneak dice. Or even just the strength heavy Half-orc Weapon Master who Great Cleave crits his way around the horn with with his Great Axe x4crit blasts.
Just some food for thought. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
yeah, this guy is great for stopping those annoying monk/aa builds from running away, can't outrun a pure monk.
I've always wondered about DwD and other DR builds, can you actually bypass it with magical weapons? or is it a +inf., so it just reduces that much damage. Also, the build does about as much damage as a dex non-ranger or rogue build would, with its 1-20 damage, and yes, against things with crit. immune, you've lost your greatest weapon, but you have other weapons, basically after you lose that, you're reduced to a dex/wis monk with 10 less epic feats
yeah, this guy is great for stopping those annoying monk/aa builds from running away, can't outrun a pure monk.
I've always wondered about DwD and other DR builds, can you actually bypass it with magical weapons? or is it a +inf., so it just reduces that much damage. Also, the build does about as much damage as a dex non-ranger or rogue build would, with its 1-20 damage, and yes, against things with crit. immune, you've lost your greatest weapon, but you have other weapons, basically after you lose that, you're reduced to a dex/wis monk with 10 less epic feats
I guess when it comes right down to it, you still have improved knockdown and an on/off 50% concealment bonus... not to mention that those wisdom increases have to do something good to your quivering palm DC .
I've always wondered about DwD and other DR builds, can you actually bypass it with magical weapons? or is it a +inf., so it just reduces that much damage.
Basically, against a DwD with 18+ levels, I don't believe you could ever scratch him (assuming he has the 3 EDR feats). Hell, even just a normal melee Rogue/FIghter/CoT can easily have 9/- DR, which pretty much sheers off your damage average per blow. You couldn't get through a Premonition, or anything with +4/x, methinks, unless you were wearing some +4-5 Glvoes of DR piercing. Of course, they could never catch you, but I think in the end players will view you as an ROadrunner. They can't kill you because they can't catch you, but at the same time they will not fear you since it is not likely that you can finish them, unless you spam Stunning Fists (you should include the amount available per day in your build, btw) and blow your whole wad on one opponent.
Quote: Also, the build does about as much damage as a dex non-ranger or rogue build would,
Well, typically such oppoents would have +6damage coming from EWS, and could further supplement combat abilities with UMD. Further, the Rogue can still land sneaks through a number of means that doesn't require stealth or a "stunned" opponent, and therefore still has potential to severely ruin somebody's day. The pure Monk has no such advantage, and in the end is left with the distant hope of raising AB through wearing Dex items and potions of Aid/Bless. With a low AB already, this fellow's list of allies grows thin. Even spamming IKD is going to leave you waiting for a natural 20, and even that is not assured success. He is still left with a great defense, so time is on his side, if anything, and he can break somebody down through a long war of attrition, but as stated earlier, that will rely heavily on the opponents AC, DR and spell protections. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Going pure Monk just isn't worth it. You would be so much better with Monk 20/Ftr 10/CoT 10 (since you didn't - for some extremely strange reason - want ED, even though as far as I can tell you *could* get the 25 DEX). Somehow I'm thinking of Monk 21/Fighter 14/SD 5. But that's already been posted -- perhaps 16/19/5 _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Aye, tis a bit of a roadrunner, but just like that cartoon, this roadrunner is annoying, and can REALLY hamper your progress. Also, if need be, i could change a few imp stunning fists to spell resistance, and then when you're against a caster with epic warding, you can just stand there and watch them waste spells on you, and kill them when they lose their buffs. Some may say that's slack, or cheap, but it's a useful stratagy. Why try and break ice when you could just wait for it to melt?
Guys!, you people are forgeting something!
Just take 5 MS down for 5 tumble...
And Take One Shadowdancer Class!!!!!
Muahahaha, then its just a Killer!
i despise the HiPS exploit, and so, you will never ever see shadowdancer in any of my builds
I'm just planting the idea of HiPS in this character becos its sooo powerful in a build like this! So a few ppl would probably put it in and vwala! it becomes a PvP master
aye, it would be much greater if you did that, but i personally refuse to, and i never expect someone to take a build and follow what is said directly. I've been given builds by people and changed lots of things to make it better, or in some times worse, so that it's not the same build and i can say i built it, with some help
I fail to see how HiPS would dramatically help this character. With no sneak/death attack to benefit from, hiding would be just that, hiding. Providing no real benefit, except enraging the other player.
Edited By Big Meph on 07/24/06 00:51
i believe the HiPS exploit is where you hide, and then your foe has their action cancelled no matter what. Also, all the servers i play on either have no SD, or no HiPS on the SD
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