I've noticed it's hard to find a ranged sneaker (and I mean not a simple Rogue using a bow, he needs high AB), of course, I understand it's harder to sneak on ranged than melee, but it's potentially a great ally on any party, get a melee to cover you while you sneak from afar with good AB, and you can kill very fast. There are some Rogue/Wizard/AA with very similar class levels, (i.e Rogue19/Wizard2/AA19 by Zhoreb which has exact class levels) but none take ISA like mine, so this one makes a much more deadly sneak attack, I try to balance high AB and high sneak attack power, regrdless of how little damage he can sustain, that's why he's more of a party guy.
Playable Levels: 1-40 PvM, untested PvP
Alignment: Any
Elf
Abilities: STR 10 DEX 20 (32) CON 12 WIS 8 INT 14 CHA 8
His HP is low, and AC isn't that high either (although he's got Uncanny), I suspect this guy works best at a medium magical environment, where he can get items to increase damage but not too high AC items (on my enemies) to mantain his AB high. A party would be great, having a melee IKDer at best.
I think his only good buff would be True Strike... only 3 level 1 slots. Having the special AA arrows and being a Wizard with UMD and all, he might be able to beat those sneak immune enemies, although sure they'll be hard. I suggest lots of Invisibility scrolls, if you can get them.
*EDIT* Changed build and skills at Thax's request. CD.
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 07/30/06 03:50
A guy with 32 DEX and no epic dodge is just stupid, no offense _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
None taken, but I disagree.
You can change the ESFs for Improved Evasion and Defensive Roll and 1 ISA for Epic Dodge; it won't lose the integrity of the build... but I probably won't do it.
Yeah, I'd definitely grab Epic Dodge in this build (I wouldn't go so far as to say a high DEX build without ED is stupid, but I will say a high DEX, high Rogue build with no ED is questionable).
I'd drop ESF:Hide, ESF:Move, and one of the Imp SA feats, grab Def Roll, Imp Evasion and Epic Dodge.
Your stelath skills will be very high without the ESF feats (and there are very very few builds that will be able to spot/hear you even without the feats). Epic Dodge will vastly increase your survivability and is a good idea with low HPs. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 07/28/06 19:37:20 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Yeah, I'd definitely grab Epic Dodge in this build (I wouldn't go so far as to say a high DEX build without ED is stupid, but I will say a high DEX, high Rogue build with no ED is questionable).
I was going to put a note saying "in a build that could (easily) meet the pre-requisites," but I didn't. Guess I should have
Nevertheless, even dropping three ISA for ED is an amazingly good trade. _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
I agree with Cin and Fin on this one. No ED in a build with such high DEX (that can obtain it relatively easily), could almost be considered foolish. I also agree with Cin that you should lose the ESF Hide and MS (not Multiple Sclerosis). Using the 2 ESF's in a dex based sneak build, to me, just looks like you're teasing your diabetic opponent with extra sugar on your whipcream covered chocolate mudcake.
If you don't get my analogy, I really can't blame you (it barely makes sense to me). _________________ "You've seen your after life Dilbert. No penalties, no rewards. It's time you loosened up and started harming other people" - Pointy-Haired Boss
I agree with getting Epic Dodge, but since that's already been said I won't comment on it. The one thing I've noticed is that you took a Wizard level at 20...Is there an actual purpose for that wizard level being right there? If possible, move that wizard level further down (around 37-40ish) and pick up more spellcraft to get saves up a bit more against spells (+3 more from what you had, I believe).
Edited By DragonRaider69 on 07/29/06 14:11
You'd lose BAB with Rogue9, I suppose that's the reason. _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Yes, Wizard 2 is only for BAB, 23 spellcraft was a bonus, any more would make me lose either Enchant Arrow or Sneak Attack damage.
Quote: ... but I probably won't do it.
I must've been so asleep, ED is very strong, plus Improved Evasion is not crap either.
Quote: Your stelath skills will be very high without the ESF feats (and there are very very few builds that will be able to spot/hear you even without the feats).
I guess my real problem is about skill checks, really be critical, are those actually high values? 53 is good, I know it's not a bad check, but it just doesn't sounds to me as impressive or really hard to spot to say ESFs are of no use. After more thinking, I realized I can change the AA bonus GDEXes into ESFs, and take ED anyway (in case of not giving up ESFs)... I'll trust your call Cinn, since I'm not very experienced with hiding checks.
Quote: I was going to put a note saying "in a build that could (easily) meet the pre-requisites," but I didn't. Guess I should have
Nevertheless, even dropping three ISA for ED is an amazingly good trade.
I guess I was just thinking on damage and damage and damage as if nothing else matters, I've played AAs with low AC and HP without ED and there was no problem. Is just that doesn't means having ED will not be better.
Quote: Posted 07/28/06 23:16:09 (GMT) -- Big Meph Using the 2 ESF's in a dex based sneak build, to me, just looks like you're teasing your diabetic opponent with extra sugar on your whipcream covered chocolate mudcake.
If you don't get my analogy, I really can't blame you (it barely makes sense to me).
I think I get your point... after some long meditation.
The point on ED has been made though, and it's a good one, I noticed after thinking it straightly, I'll PM a mod with the changes.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 07/30/06 03:34
Great to see you've come to your senses (i.e. agreeing with me ). Also, I'm quite certain 53 Hide/MS is enough for PvM.
Now that you're getting Epic Dodge, I can say good build, I like it! _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
You'd lose BAB with Rogue9, I suppose that's the reason.
Ah, ok. That makes sense. *Nod.* But with Epic Dodge, this is a great support character, as well as a great overall build. Good Job, Thax.
Edited By DragonRaider69 on 07/30/06 18:59
It looks good, a nice sneak attack archer. You're right, in that it isn't well represented in the guild (though personally I would probably try a rogue/bard/shadowdancer or rogue/cleric/shadowdancer instead). If I were you I might drop 2 rogue levels for two wizard levels in epic. You would lose two dice of sneak damage but you would be able to max out your spellcraft and you would pick up ultravision, darkness and invisibility as spells. Just a thought. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
SD is great for a sneaker archer, but the AB is hardly as good. Actually, losing 2 Rogue levels makes me lose 3d6 sneak attack, because ISA can only be taken as Rogue and every level is taken as Rogue for ISA, the Wizard in epic is still a nice idea for Spellcraft and spells...
Why take Wizard at all? Wouldn't Bard be better? More AB, More Skills, More HP's, even a small song for what its worth.
Just curious. Its something I dont get.
Simple, with Bard you get XP penalty, Wizard is the (however was it called, not counting XP penalty) class for Elves. There is little difference in skills anyway since I wouldn't take Bard on epics, you know the song is useless, and Wizard's True Sight can actually get used. AB is exactly the same with Bard and Wizard and the HP is 2 higher per level (4 in total), which is a whortless addition.
SD is great for a sneaker archer, but the AB is hardly as good.
Hence why I suggested the bard or cleric as a third class. GMW might not work on bows but all the other cleric buffs do and a bard can always use curse song before attacking (bard song and war cry will raise that AB by 4 as well). Not to take anything away from this build, it works great and in a party setting this is the better archer. It's just that the others I suggested are a little more self sufficient. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
The one thing I've noticed is that you took a Wizard level at 20...Is there an actual purpose for that wizard level being right there? If possible, move that wizard level further down (around 37-40ish) and pick up more spellcraft to get saves up a bit more against spells (+3 more from what you had, I believe).