This is a varient of The Assasin King Fighter 14/Assassin 25/SD 1 by grizzled_dwarflord. The major difference is that this build gets Devestating Critical in addition to the Death Attack, thereby forcing the opponent to make more saves, thus increasing probability of their failure.
This was my first shot at the varient, and it follows very closely to Grizz's in most areas, though feat arrangment and a few other things could use some editing I think, so bear with me.
Skills: Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, and UMD can all be maxed out, and there are roughly enough points to maximize one additional Skill.
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Advantages:
-Good Death Attack DC -Good Dev Crit DC -Decent Stealth in Heavy Armour -Decent Hit Points for Sneaker -HiPS is always great -Improved Invisibility -Great Damage on a Sneak Attack -Forces many Saves/Checks on opposition
Disadvantages:
-Useless AC -Pretty Garbage Saves -Mediochre AB -A few forgotten things
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Possible Alterations:
-With an additional Shadowdancer level, Darkvision and Evasion are gained. If an Assasin level is sacrificed, only a single Death Attack DC is lost and two feats are gained; however, Darkvision is not entirely useful, and Evasion isn't terribly practical with such a low Reflex Save.
-The last Fighter level could be pushed later into the build, giving the possibility of maxing either Concentration or Discipline during the final levels, and Epic Weapon Specialization can be taken rather than Devestating Critical. The only reason I didn't do this was because I prefered getting Devestating Critical slightly sooner, as leveling is hard where I play.
-Since the current AC is pretty much useless as it is, the Full Plate could be forgetten in place of lighter styles, thereby reducing the Skill Check penalties. Infact, I think that is what I, myself, would do. Remaining unseen is better than having a few extra AC that are easily passed either way.
-Weapon Specialization is only taken to increase playability before the Death Attack fully develops. In the end, an extra two damage means nothing when the Death Attack can deal upwards of 100 damage, and a Critical means instant death. It could be substituted for Toughness to increase playability just the same, as well as survivability even in the higher levels.
-The Shadowdancer level could be taken far earlier than I did. I wasn't sure where it would best fit so I stuck it where it is without much thought on the matter. It could actually be taken after the first Assasin level as long as Mobility is pushed in there earlier. That would give you HiPS earlier, which might give an edge as well as an easier time with playability.
All in all, I don't really know if the above mentioned alterations are better than the format the build is posted in. If anyone has a say in the matter, please share your opinions and comments to help myself and anyone else who may be curious.
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My Thoughts: Forcing Death Attack Saves, Devestating Critical Saves, Discipline Checks with IKD, Spot/Listen Checks, and anything else you can muster with UMD, this build is bound to make an opponent fail at some point which will either mean Parylysis, Death, or falling Prone. In either case, it will mean a loss of a fight to the enemy. A prone opponent will be an easy target for hundreds of d6's in Sneak Attack damage, and a Parylized opponent will suffer the same fate until they either die of massive damage, or of a Devestating blow.
That is why I like the build. When an enemy has to look upon the dreaded 'Death Attack: Hit' and 'Devestating Critical: Hit' and 'Improved Knockdown: Hit' they will surely be rather dissapointed, possibly afraid.
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Thoughts, Opinions, or Advice?
Added link - Kail Pendragon
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 08/08/06 00:18
this is a pretty decent build, his ab may appear mediocre, but with a dex bonus of +6 ab from buffs items etc, and a say...+7 weapon his ab comes out to 51 which is fairly good, but against those high ac characters it might have a bit of trouble inforcing the main point of your build...a.k.a death attack, and dev crit without being able to hit though. I dont really see any ways to increase the ab though so its probably best like it is.
Overall I like this build, ive always prefered characters like this. _________________ ~HGTZOUS
Personally I like this build very much, its looks good with both devcrit and good deathattack. (im a great fan of both)
Now if im not terribly mistaken this build does not need the 15 dex, only 13, or should you want another dexbonus point, thats always nice if your armour allows it. Taking dex 14 frees two abilitypoints, that can be used to raise str to 17 at lv and thereby release one epic feat from great str, giving you the opportunity to either take toughness, epic skillfocus (hide/ms), epic save or mabye even epic weapon spec. (helps vs. crit/sneak immune like palemasters and epic shifter druids).
And you never said what weapon this build uses, nor the playability range.
The thought is good and I actually hoped someone'd make a build with both devcrit and good death/sneakattack, and here it is. Never woulda thought of this myself but all in all I think its good. Great job!
With a +4 Scimitar, (the weapon I chose, which I forgot to make note of) and a few Strength enhancments, it could hit 45-50 on my server, potions of bless and aid included. UMD could muster some scroll power together to help, so I am confident it could get as high as 50. But with HiPS, you catch the enemy flat footed everytime, which effectively eliminates their Tumble Bonus, Dodge Bonus, Dexterity Bonus... and greatly improves your chances. And really, it only takes one hit to kill them.
If your first attack hits, they are stunned or knocked down in most cases, if not dead completely.
Edited By Okembour on 08/08/06 00:17
And to the person who posted as I was posting, the reason I have 15 Dexterity is for Ambidexterity. I am pretty sure it requires 15... right?
Quote: Posted 08/08/06 00:13:19 (GMT) -- Groml
Now if im not terribly mistaken this build does not need the 15 dex, only 13, or should you want another dexbonus point, thats always nice if your armour allows it.
Ambidexterity
EDIT: just beaten to the punch. BTW, it would be nice (but isn't necessary) if you'd suggest a weapon. Seeing as it is already rather similar to Assassin King, you could always use shortswords.
Or if you can live without Improved Initiative (seeing as your initiative really isn't going to beat a DEX based fighter, you could take weapon prof. exotic and go with kukris or katanas.
Edited By Big Meph on 08/08/06 00:26
I could do that, but it just seems better suited to get the small initiative bonus which nets a +6 from feats in the end, than to get Kukris when I could simply use Scimitars.
Scimitars over Rapiers because you can Keen a Scimitar.
If you're worried about AB, then don't use Scimitars. Use a light weapon such as short swords, handaxes, sickles, etc. Personally, I'd probably go with short swords. Sure, you get a better threat range with the scimmies, but you're losing 2 AB by using them. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Oh yeah.. I forgot about that. Gah!
Silly Okembour.
Is there a small weapon with the same threat range as scimitars? If it is Exotic I would take it and drop a feat for it... is that why people take Kukri's so often? They have good threat range?
they're crit range can get down to 10-12 chance of crit.
Quote: Posted 08/08/06 00:45:21 (GMT) -- Okembour
Oh yeah.. I forgot about that. Gah!
Silly Okembour.
Is there a small weapon with the same threat range as scimitars? If it is Exotic I would take it and drop a feat for it... is that why people take Kukri's so often? They have good threat range?
Yep, that's exactly why. Kukri's have the best threat range of the "tiny" weapons. You can get it to as low as 10-20 (that's with Improved Crit, Ki Crit, and keen kukris). Of course, I realise that Ki crit isn't available to you seeing as you're not a Weapon master.
EDIT: Arrgghh! I was beaten again.
Edited By Big Meph on 08/08/06 00:52
Alright then it is settled... for me at least. I am dropping and arranging some feats around for Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Kukris. Another two AB will bring it to 40 without any enchantments or anything. Great!
Any other critiquing? Anything at all?
A more specific question:
Should Shadowdancer be taken in Pre-Epic levels? It could be done if Mobility is moved earlier into the build, and right after the first Assasin level, the prerequisits are met... would it be smarter to do this to get HiPS earlier? I dont see why not, but I don't know if that will disrupt BAB or anything... I'm not too keen on that stuff.
And while I'm here, special thanks to Kail for pointing me in the right direction in the making of this build. He basically spelt it out for me. So thanks buddy.
Quote: Posted 08/08/06 00:54:17 (GMT) -- Okembour
Alright then it is settled... for me at least. I am dropping and arranging some feats around for Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Kukris. Another two AB will bring it to 40 without any enchantments or anything. Great!
Any other critiquing? Anything at all?
Well, he'd be much more handsome if he were a Dwarf... _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 08/08/06 03:18:10 (GMT) -- Okembour
A more specific question:
Should Shadowdancer be taken in Pre-Epic levels? It could be done if Mobility is moved earlier into the build, and right after the first Assasin level, the prerequisits are met... would it be smarter to do this to get HiPS earlier? I dont see why not, but I don't know if that will disrupt BAB or anything... I'm not too keen on that stuff.
While it will make this build more playable, it will lower your total AB by 1.
Quote: Posted 08/08/06 03:24:46 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Quote: Posted 08/08/06 00:54:17 (GMT) -- Okembour
Alright then it is settled... for me at least. I am dropping and arranging some feats around for Exotic Weapon Proficiency and Kukris. Another two AB will bring it to 40 without any enchantments or anything. Great!
Any other critiquing? Anything at all?
Well, he'd be much more handsome if he were a Dwarf...
Don't even start with that nonsense!
And besides, I need the Skills and Feat considering all the available choices Assasin gives me.
An option that might improve this build slightly would be to drop 3 assassin levels, take 2 more fighter levels and one more shadowdancer level. One more shadowdancer level will get you evasion and the fighter levels give you another bonus feat (armor skin ?). A 21 reflex save isn't that bad, a wizard with a 38 INT has a DC of 24+spell level or 33 max baring spell foci in evocation (39 with spell foci). If you cross-class spellcraft you can raise that save to 25, which would give you a good chance of saving against spells, chuck in a couple of save boosting items and you'll get use out of evasion. Also evasion will give you a chance to avoid trap damage, which, with the bonuses from uncanny dodge, should be a breeze for you. _________________ Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do.
Actually that isn't a bad idea once I think of a Feat I would want. Armour Skin just would seem so miniscule to me. The AC is already quite low, as the build cannot buff beyond using UMD, and without a Shield or and innate AC bonuses from races or classes, Armour Skin just wouldn't be the ideal pick for me.
And question: The Darkvision from SD 2, would that surpass magical darkness?
Looks good to me. Basically just a Dev-crit version-- I must confess that I haven't used Dev-crit in over 2 years. Does it still work? Yes, of course it does, don't mind me. Carry on. As you were. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
The armor class isn't that low; in fact it's excellent for a plate wearer. Without a shield, 29 is as good as it gets:
Total = 29. The only way to get it higher without magic is add a shield and/or take RDD or PM levels. I'd take Armor Skin if it's a viable option.
As for Darkvision; no it does not pierce magical Darkness. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Blast. It would be useful if it did. Then I could see through my own Darkness spell. But I couldn't when I tried. I thought the caster would be able to see through his own created Darkness?
Meh.
Ang grizz, the only reason I wanted Dev Crit is because, for some reason, my server hasn't dropped it yet. In most places though, this build wouldn't be overly strong the way I have it set up.
And as for the AC, I'm not saying I should expect better, I'm saying that just about any build can hit it regardless. A pure Fighter with 30 Strength would be gaurenteed a hit on all but the last attack, which he would need a 4 to hit. And that is if he doesn't take any Weapon Focus feats, or use an enhanced blade. It just doesn't seem worth an Epic Feat to add +2 to the AC. But thats me. And perhaps there is no better option.
Quote: Posted 08/08/06 18:32:26 (GMT) -- Okembour
And as for the AC, I'm not saying I should expect better, I'm saying that just about any build can hit it regardless. A pure Fighter with 30 Strength would be gaurenteed a hit on all but the last attack, which he would need a 4 to hit.
But that's what a FTR is designed to do: hit things. So it shouldn't be surprising if he can do that. However, consider the effect magic has on the equation. For every +1 boost to gear, AB rises by one, but AC rises by 5 (since you're adding +1 to all 5 types of armor class). If you can get +5 gear, you're looking at a 49 AC, including Armor Skin (57 with +5 tower shield).
Quote: And that is if he doesn't take any Weapon Focus feats, or use an enhanced blade. It just doesn't seem worth an Epic Feat to add +2 to the AC. But thats me. And perhaps there is no better option.
Look at it this way: you were worried about an extra -2 penalty to your AB, so you decided to burn a feat on exotic weapons to eliminate it. Taking Armor Skin is the equivalent of imposing a -2 AB on all your opponents. Worth a feat? As I said, if it's a viable option, it's probably worth taking. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
I suppose it is. But I suppose I will have to wait until I can get back on NWN, so I can look at the alternative feats before I chose what is more valuable. I might even elect to take Epic Skill Focus: Discipline and bump Fighter until later in the build to max out that skill. I could get Discipline 63 without any gear, then with a few items bump it to around 80 or 90 if I am lucky. Normally I would take the +2 AC, but if a Shadowdancer gets Knocked Down, they are doomed. They can't escape with HiPS and don't have enough Hit Points to sacrifice all their time laying prone on the ground. I would like to eliminate the possibility now that I think of it. Concentration is another one, because if I am Taunted I am doomed as well; however, Taunt is far less common than KD/IKD so Discipline would come first I believe.
Alright, I think I got my plans figured out, but I am always open to more ideas, critiquing, or editing of the build.
You should try to improve your AC and/or HP as much as you can. Don't start with the "A STR based WM can hit me so easy that Armor Skin is not worth it", at any rate, then just go against a Red Dragon Disciple with True Sight (Cleric or Druid) which is immune to paralisis and should hit you quite often, or bring a CHA based Palain/CoT and your DCs are crap, but calm down, there's always another build which can beat you, that doesn't means you won't increase your AC just because of that, Armor Skin, or maybe even Toughness are very viable choices, all-out damage is not 100% effective, a little defense for back up can save you quite often.
It's very nice, let those low Fortitude builds feel the pain, sadly for you, your so hated dwarves are fond to have high Fortitude saves.
Unless you have a mate in you party with clarity on your party, any cleric or bard (with true seeing) will fling off some death or mindspell that'll have you down in no time so you should serioulsy try to improve your saves if this build is for pvp as you dont have any spells or dexbonus to get an impressive amount of hide/ms. Darkness and flee works but you may not always have time to cast.
Quote: Posted 08/09/06 01:22:12 (GMT) -- Groml
Unless you have a mate in you party with clarity on your party, any cleric or bard (with true seeing) will fling off some death or mindspell that'll have you down in no time so you should serioulsy try to improve your saves if this build is for pvp as you dont have any spells or dexbonus to get an impressive amount of hide/ms. Darkness and flee works but you may not always have time to cast.
He's got 55 in Hide and Move (not counting any Armor Check Penalties he may accrue). As for Clarity or the like, he's got UMD to cast from scrolls for those. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Plus, True Sight doesn't see hidden opponents on my server. Only invisible or ethereal. I am also confident I can get Full Plate that will have a Hide Bonus equal to the Skill Check Penalty. Then, with some +2 Hide Equipment in other areas, True Sight won't do a thing with it's puny +10 spot bonus and See Invisibility.
This makes HiPS very, very powerful even in comparison to it's standard self.
As for saves, I know I can get level 1 scrolls at any time I please, which will cover that Protection from Alignment thing, to give me immunity to either alignment's mind spells... very useful. I am also confident I can get a Death Ward.
So I suppose Armour Skin or Epic Toughness really are the best choices, and I think of the two, I might take Toughness in this case. There is always something that can hit me, but no matter what it is, it still has to get me down to -10.
Oh yeah.. I forgot about that. Gah!