Amazingly, pulse cap's search engine returned no results for this class combination. Note the odd synergy between cleric and assassin -- using an assassin epic feat to obtain Improved Combat Casting.
Advantages: 1) 11d6 Death Attack, DC 34 (w/maxed int: 40) 2) Many ways to generate death attack opportunity: Darkness+True Seeing/Ultravision, HiPS, Improved Invis 3) Lvl 9 cleric spells 4) Decent all-around saves 5) Can stealth reasonably well even while wearing full plate and tower shield 6) Vulnerability to dispelling is mitigated somewhat by Improved Combat Casting, allowing fairly safe re-buffing during combat (although HiPS may make this a bit redundant, but you never can tell) 7) Flexible skillset, including 40 UMD
Disadvantages: 1) Low HP's 2) Vulnerable when dispelled 3) A bit feat starved - KD/IKD would've been nice, as would've a one or two more metamagic feats
Overall, a fun build that requires some thought to play effectively. It's hard to go wrong with any build that has 15+ cleric levels, in my experience.
EDIT: Fixed Feats
Edited class split in title: Assassin gets no short form - Kail Pendragon _________________ Favorite PW's: Hall of the Worlds, Higher Ground, World of Iniquity.
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 08/10/06 16:24
Quote: Posted 08/10/06 04:53:11 (GMT) -- chsmi
03: Cleric(3): Weapon Focus: Dagger
I think thats pretty cool!! You dont see many dagger wfs! Especially from a cleric. Nice touch.
I am not sure how much the cc/icc will help the build. The focus of this build is really melee (with 17 cleric lvls you and no sf feats you arnt gonna lay the smack down with your magic), and being a melee cleric fanatic, i dont cast much. The only times you would really need it is to recast a div fav/pwr when you run long in the slayin department, which doesnt happen all to often. You mentioned you felt the build is feat starved, that may be a way to loosen them up.
Otherwise, this is a fine build. Nicely done.
BEsides CC/ICC is useless if you don't have any other modal feats, namely Expertise/Imp.expertise. Just cast in Defensive Mode and you get the same result but with two more feats to pick.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Unto to the darkness I commend my soul Never shall I repent Never shall I be saved
I'll go into the House of Death Before my last breath My enemies all shall die!
I'd go along the same train of thought by dropping CC/ ICC for KD and IKD.. giving yourself yet another route to land sneaks.
Nice concept btw...
You might wanna test this, but I seem to remember that when you cast in defensive mode and get hurt the concentration DC adds up. Whereas with ICC you start at DC 0. It might be a man's memory that fails him though. _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG
BEsides CC/ICC is useless if you don't have any other modal feats, namely Expertise/Imp.expertise. Just cast in Defensive Mode and you get the same result but with two more feats to pick.
Cheers, Kail
Thanks for the feedback. I definitely concede that ICC isn't of greatest use to a combat-focused cleric.
I must guiltily admit that the reason I like ICC is that I'm a clumsy player, and simply won't take the time to fiddle with the modal menus, especially for an ability that's 3-4 clicks in. Sure, I can quickslot it but I am generally scrounging for slots as it is with my clerics. I hate those pesky AOO's...
The other reason I took it was because the assassin bonus feats just don't blow my hair back--the extra dex isn't too appealling, since this guy will be marching around in full plate and toting a shield. The only other assassin feat that I'd consider helpful to this build would be ESF: Move Silently, which may be the way to go with an SD sneaker in plate--I need all the bonuses I can get!
Given that ICC is an assassin epic bonus feat, I'dm love to hear suggestions how to get KD/IKD into this build without sacrificing in other ways (ie, lower saves, loss of AB, etc). I couldn't see a way to do it without an unacceptable sacrifice. _________________ Favorite PW's: Hall of the Worlds, Higher Ground, World of Iniquity.
Quote: Posted 08/10/06 05:23:54 (GMT) -- avado
Quote: Posted 08/10/06 04:53:11 (GMT) -- chsmi
03: Cleric(3): Weapon Focus: Dagger
I think thats pretty cool!! You dont see many dagger wfs! Especially from a cleric. Nice touch.
I am not sure how much the cc/icc will help the build. The focus of this build is really melee (with 17 cleric lvls you and no sf feats you arnt gonna lay the smack down with your magic), and being a melee cleric fanatic, i dont cast much. The only times you would really need it is to recast a div fav/pwr when you run long in the slayin department, which doesnt happen all to often. You mentioned you felt the build is feat starved, that may be a way to loosen them up.
Otherwise, this is a fine build. Nicely done.
Well thank you, kind sir! I thought dagger was cool too...and since sneaks and buffs are my main dmg, I didn't think the weapon itself mattered much.
It's funny that you don't find yourself re-buffing in combat too often--I find myself doing it constantly, particularly because I love the +5 dmg bonus from divine favor, and it only lasts a turn. Probably not enough to warrant ICC, as mentioned in my other post.
Thanks for the comments! _________________ Favorite PW's: Hall of the Worlds, Higher Ground, World of Iniquity.
one way would be to drop Stealthy and Combat Casting for both KD and IKD pre-epic.
Then drop ICC in epic for ESF: Move Silently.
This will give you a higher Move Silent by 8 points, but your Hide will drop by 2.
Personally I would also look for a way in which to increase your starting CON to 12 or 14, possibly at the expense of WIS and taking extra WIS during the life of the build up to 20. The final WIS would increase your Fort Save by +1 and an additional 1st and 5th level spell. Raising CON to 14 would raise it by +1, so perhaps dropping Epic Fortitude may be an option in this instance. (A net loss of 1 point to Fort). Just my personal opinion really.
Quote: Posted 08/10/06 15:20:51 (GMT) -- chsmi
I thought dagger was cool too...and since sneaks and buffs are my main dmg, I didn't think the weapon itself mattered much.
It's funny that you don't find yourself re-buffing in combat too often--I find myself doing it constantly, particularly because I love the +5 dmg bonus from divine favor, and it only lasts a turn. Probably not enough to warrant ICC, as mentioned in my other post.
Thanks for the comments!
I agree about the dagger! If you have nice sneak damage and/or are in a high magic world, the weapon indeed doesnt matter as the base damage is of no importance.
YOu find yourself constantly rebuffing? Hmm. Divine fav does last only one turn (2 if extended ) but div power lasts 1rd/lv iirc. THis gives you LOTS of time, esp if extended. With all the cleric buffs, you should be takin down the monster quickly (maybe the dagger IS of consequence!!). Trust me, I am constantly monitoring my div favs/prs battletides, prayers when I am in combat. I find that concentration is all that is really needed. ANd since you have HIPS you can easily steal away to buff then move back in. I am not talkin about moving far away, just slightly out of reach. My cleric has some tumble so i dont worry bout this at all as i wade in and out of combat. Just my two cents. _________________
You might wanna test this, but I seem to remember that when you cast in defensive mode and get hurt the concentration DC adds up. Whereas with ICC you start at DC 0. It might be a man's memory that fails him though.
I haven't tested this Grimnir, but I don't think that's correct. The DC to avoid an AoO in DCM is 15 + spell level. If you pass that, you avoid incurring an AoO. However, if you still get hit with a normal attack, you must also pass the Concentration check, which is 10 + Spell Level you're casting + damage received (IIRC). I don't think it ever starts at DC 0. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 08/10/06 16:09:24 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
You might wanna test this, but I seem to remember that when you cast in defensive mode and get hurt the concentration DC adds up. Whereas with ICC you start at DC 0. It might be a man's memory that fails him though.
I haven't tested this Grimnir, but I don't think that's correct. The DC to avoid an AoO in DCM is 15 + spell level. If you pass that, you avoid incurring an AoO. However, if you still get hit with a normal attack, you must also pass the Concentration check, which is 10 + Spell Level you're casting + damage received (IIRC). I don't think it ever starts at DC 0.
Not DC=0, but you know what I meant. I've had serious trouble getting off spells in defensive casting mode compared to ICC sometimes. Heck it's been easier just taking the AoO's on happenstance. That's why I thought so. This has happened online so I've never gotten to read the logs. It might be coincidence. _________________ Dragonlance ROH is back, better than before! and I spend a little time here WoG
Ah, sorry Grimnir, I misinterpreted. You could well be right though; as I said, I've not tested it and it's been a loooooong time since I used DCM. So I'd trust your more recent experience with it. Cheers. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Edited class split in title: Assassin gets no short form - Kail Pendragon
I didn't do it on purpose, honest! _________________ Favorite PW's: Hall of the Worlds, Higher Ground, World of Iniquity.
one way would be to drop Stealthy and Combat Casting for both KD and IKD pre-epic.
Then drop ICC in epic for ESF: Move Silently.
This will give you a higher Move Silent by 8 points, but your Hide will drop by 2.
Personally I would also look for a way in which to increase your starting CON to 12 or 14, possibly at the expense of WIS and taking extra WIS during the life of the build up to 20. The final WIS would increase your Fort Save by +1 and an additional 1st and 5th level spell. Raising CON to 14 would raise it by +1, so perhaps dropping Epic Fortitude may be an option in this instance. (A net loss of 1 point to Fort). Just my personal opinion really.
I'm not sure I'd change the feats, as I find ICC helpful (but you could certainly make that adjustment easily, if you wished). However, I definitely think you've got something in terms of stat adjustments.
You could pull Wis back to 14 at creation, raise con to 14, then trade two str increases for two wis increases, and viola! -- 80hp's AND +2 Fort at the cost of one AB and +1 dmg? With as many buffs as this guy gets, it's a no-brainer.
(Wis doesn't add to fortitude saves, it adds to Will, so I'm not too sure about your other suggestion--can you clarify?) _________________ Favorite PW's: Hall of the Worlds, Higher Ground, World of Iniquity.
Quote: Posted 08/10/06 04:53:11 (GMT) -- chsmi
Edited class split in title: Assassin gets no short form - Kail Pendragon
Hmm.. you caught it before anyone Kail. I recall from my younger days of Diablo 2 we called Assassys by their short name, sins. Now that i see it, it aint any better. Maybe you are right
Maybe nwn2 will bring to us the famous Assxx class (minus the xx). Its the one where the skill Foot In Mouth is the ONLY skill available. I could go on, but I fear the (g)mods will ...... _________________
You might wanna test this, but I seem to remember that when you cast in defensive mode and get hurt the concentration DC adds up. Whereas with ICC you start at DC 0. It might be a man's memory that fails him though.
Nope, no adding up: it's two separate checks, one to see if you manage to cast the spell in Def.Casting mode (DC=15+spell lvl) and the second to see if you manage to cast the spell even though you got damaged (DC=10+dmg received). Once your concentration is high enough the first check becomes unimportant since you'll always pass it. CC can help to keep your concentration at lower levels and ICC is really useful only if you know you are gonna use other modal feats... or if you are lazy and don't wanna turn on def.casting mode
Cheers, Kail _________________ Looking for a realm of adventure? Check out World of Greyhawk, you won't regret it.
Quote: Posted 08/10/06 22:50:38 (GMT) -- avado
Quote: Posted 08/10/06 04:53:11 (GMT) -- chsmi
Edited class split in title: Assassin gets no short form - Kail Pendragon
Hmm.. you caught it before anyone Kail. I recall from my younger days of Diablo 2 we called Assassys by their short name, sins. Now that i see it, it aint any better. Maybe you are right
Maybe nwn2 will bring to us the famous Assxx class (minus the xx). Its the one where the skill Foot In Mouth is the ONLY skill available. I could go on, but I fear the (g)mods will ......
How about Sassys? Why the need of making short the names? just write it, your hand won't fall off, besides, it's not a hard thing to write like my nickname or something (That one gets a variety of reasons why nobody spells it completely).
Nice build there.
This is goin OT, but short names are coool
In every culture there become words that mean somethin only to those of that culture. ITs an inside language. IT is not important, but its fun. DO we need them, no. BUT to not try is a sin _________________
I think avado answered your question like no other could...
Off topic galore, on the short form of the Assassin name (that is without the -assin suffix).
Think of:
how would you call an assassin which is not good at what he does?
a not to bright assassin?
a clever assassin?
the cave like hideout? (clue: basically a *hole* in the ground)
an easy going assassin, someone you like to hang around with?
Meh, I don't get it. Much ado for a donkey
[/offtopic]
Cheers, Kail _________________ Heavy metal Or no metal at all Whimps and posers Leave the hall!
I use ASN for Assassin. Short, simple and effective _________________ Demons are Forever!
This looks like a really cool build. One thing I think it is missing, though, is evasion, which is, imo, one of the best of the easily cherry picked abilities, especially if you have a moderate or better Reflex save. Your level split is certainly viable, but I would drop a cleric level to take SD 2 (dropping assassin levels isn't too attractive for the loss of a bonus feat/ death attack DC). Level 9 spells are lost, but I think most players don't find them too impressive, and it puts a little less stress on your wisdom score, which opens up some other possibilities. _________________ (I enjoy writing parenthetically (a lot)).
I'd take level 9 Cleric spells anytime instead of Evasion, you also get several spellslots. Evasion can be easily over-rated, it can be very useless with a low to medium Reflex save and in PvP you'll be snatched by IGMSs all the time, rendering it quite useless. Improved Evasion is a whole different story, as it works even on a failed save, the same problem happens against casters on PvP though.
I'd take level 9 Cleric spells anytime instead of Evasion, you also get several spellslots. Evasion can be easily over-rated, it can be very useless with a low to medium Reflex save and in PvP you'll be snatched by IGMSs all the time, rendering it quite useless. Improved Evasion is a whole different story, as it works even on a failed save, the same problem happens against casters on PvP though.
In PvP, you'll get snatched by IGMS if you have 9th level Cleric Spells, too . In my experience with PvM, and yours may be different, there are quite a few monsters who spam a fairly low DC/ high damage area of effect that allows a reflex save (winter wolves, anyone?). Watching the party fighter/ WM drop like a stone because he got caught in 5 at once while my Cleric/ Rogue takes no damage should be enough to convince anyone of the value of evasion.
The fact is, unless you have the Wisdom to make Storm of Vengeance worthwhile, I don't see anything on the Cleric's 9th level spell list that could translate to life or death in the way that having evasion can. Sure, having 9th level spells is preferrable to not having them, but the costs and benefits have to be weighed. When you add in the lower stress on Wisdom score, and the fact that this can equate to +2 con at character creation, I think the Cleric 16/ SD 2 version wins out by a hair.
Just my 2 cents. _________________ (I enjoy writing parenthetically (a lot)).
This looks like a really cool build. One thing I think it is missing, though, is evasion, which is, imo, one of the best of the easily cherry picked abilities, especially if you have a moderate or better Reflex save. Your level split is certainly viable, but I would drop a cleric level to take SD 2 (dropping assassin levels isn't too attractive for the loss of a bonus feat/ death attack DC). Level 9 spells are lost, but I think most players don't find them too impressive, and it puts a little less stress on your wisdom score, which opens up some other possibilities.
Undeath's Eternal Foe. A little known fact about that spell is not only does it give immunity to neg. energy, etc, it also gives +4 AC dodge bonus (not listed in the spell description). Further, this bonus stacks with itself--meaning, you can cast it twice and get +8, etc, up to the +20 dodge bonus cap.
I agree most of the other 9th level spells aren't that great, but also keep in mind that those slots can be used for metamagic'ed spells--stilled fire storms, for instance. All in all, it's personal choice, but I'd personally take 9th level spells over Evasion every time. _________________ Favorite PW's: Hall of the Worlds, Higher Ground, World of Iniquity.
- Kail Pendragon
You might wanna test this, but I seem to remember that when you cast in defensive mode and get hurt the concentration DC adds up. Whereas with ICC you start at DC 0. It might be a man's memory that fails him though.
