Race: Human Alignment: Starting any Lawful, shift to any Non-Lawful at level 7 Playable PvM 1 - 40
This class combination has not been done before, probably because of the alignment shift. Sorcerer could be used at the cost of 1 AB and quite a bit more pressure on Charisma, but I think Bard is a superior build choice for a lot of reasons (not to mention there are a few Sorcerer variants in the guild already).
Actually, the real reason I chose Bard over Sorcerer is because me and lawful alignments don't get along very well . Almost any time I get tempted into playing a build with Monk in it, it almost always degenerates into a “Fallen” monk, regardless of whether the other classes have alignment restrictions or not . It's really too bad, because aside from the lawful thing, I really like the concept of a self contained warrior, but, meh, here's the build.
Starting/ Ending: Str 14/ 36 Dex 14 Con 10/ 12 Wis 12 Int 14/ 16 Cha 14/ 16
Max HP: 356 AC (naked): 28 AB (w/ mundane kama): +41/ +38/ +35/ +32/ +29
Saves (+9 vs spells): Fort 25 Ref 25 Will 28
Advantages Pretty good all around saves 5 attacks per round, or 6 with flurry of blows Average AB, but with self Buffing and Taunt Good AC for a Strength Monk (without taking loads of Monk levels) Lasting Inspiration Full Bard Spellcasting More than 300 Skill Points (without any Rogue levels!)
Disadvantages No Improved Evasion to shore up the weak Reflex Save Lowish AC for a tumble class build, but can self buff Dex and Wis to make up for it Lowish HP for a meleer (but comparable to other Bard heavy builds)
Comments and variations At first glance, the stat spread may seem a bit too tough to make the build viable, but I've found the RDD boosts and the Bard's ability to self buff Str, Dex, and Wis goes a long way to make up for it. In a lot of ways, Strength Monks and RDD were made for each other (loads of “free” AC to get semi-close to Dex monks, and a bunch of other goodies), it's just too bad the only way to qualify is through classes with Charisma as a core ability, adding to the monk's already tough spread.
As it is, the build isn't particularly feat starved, and its easy enough to get to Dex 15 to qualify for Ambidexterity, but I generally don't feel the feat investment is worth it unless you have Sneak Attacks, Flame Weapon, or Darkfire at your disposal. All in all, “wasted” item slots aside, single wielding a kama isn't that bad, imo, because you still get 5 or 6 attacks per round (as much as a “normal” dual wielder), and you get to keep the benefits of Deflect Arrows.
This build could definitely use Improved Evasion to shore up the weak save, and taking 3 more monk levels to get it is certainly possible, but at the cost of 1 AB and an Epic Feat (which translates to an additional -2 AC, -1 AB/ damage, or no Lasting Inspiration). Going to Monk 10 for the +1 AC may seem a good idea, but it forces you to delay RDD 10 to level 40, so you can take Bard 20 at level 39.
Otherwise, Str, Con, Dex, and Wis can all be adjusted to taste (or even Int if you don't mind losing skill points), but I wouldn't recommend raising any of them above 14 at creation.
Comments/ criticisms/ suggestions welcome _________________ (I enjoy writing parenthetically (a lot)).
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 05/27/10 21:09
I would consider going Monk 8/ Bard 4/ RDD 8 pre-epic to get +1 AB.
I would suggest dropping DEX to 12 and WIS to 10, which would allow you to boost your CON to 14 giving you a +2 to your Fort Save and 80 HP, which currently you would benefit from.
Currently you do not get anywhere close to the Perform requirements for a 24th Bard or Curse Song. At best you can get a 19th Bard Song and 20th Curse Song (which assumes you have sung your Bard Song beforehand).
You could go Monk 10/ RDD 10/ Bard 20 quite easily to get that Improved Evasion Feat, increase movement speed by 10%, Unarmed Attack improvement also. Doing this you can maintain the same AB at 41, and drop STR by 2 points to include Epic Skill Focus: Taunt, if required.
I would consider dropping Expertise for Extend Spell, particularly to make the build more effective throughout its life.
Thoughts and ideas reallu.
Quote: Posted 09/20/06 09:14:54 (GMT) -- I...Samphus I would consider going Monk 8/ Bard 4/ RDD 8 pre-epic to get +1 AB
You get 1 AB, but you guarantee the loss of a Bard Bonus feat, and you don't even get Improved Evasion without another alignment shift or two along the way in epic. I wouldn't do this.
Quote: I would suggest dropping DEX to 12 and WIS to 10, which would allow you to boost your CON to 14 giving you a +2 to your Fort Save and 80 HP, which currently you would benefit from.
I made the split the way I did because with the RDD Con Boost and Toughness, it has HP equivalent to a 14 Con, which I set as a kind of benchmark for my builds. More HP are certainly always welcome, but so is AC, and I would rather get hit 10% less often than soak 80 more points of damage. If neither Dex nor Wis were also tied to saves, adding to Con would be a no brainer, but as it is, I think its somewhat debatable, but perhaps I'm overlooking something.
Quote: Currently you do not get anywhere close to the Perform requirements for a 24th Bard or Curse Song. At best you can get a 19th Bard Song and 20th Curse Song (which assumes you have sung your Bard Song beforehand).
I'm kind of confused, because I don't think I said it would, but I did mention it would get exactly what you said (19th level Bard Song, 20th level Curse Song).
Quote: You could go Monk 10/ RDD 10/ Bard 20 quite easily to get that Improved Evasion Feat, increase movement speed by 10%, Unarmed Attack improvement also.
Problem with that is, assuming you want Lasting Inspiration (which I did) you have to delay Monk 10 to level 40 (which forces a second alignment shift) or RDD 10 to level 40 (which would severely delay most of the best immunities, not to mention 5th and 6th level Bard Spells).
Quote: I would consider dropping Expertise for Extend Spell, particularly to make the build more effective throughout its life.
I don't see why Expertise doesn't also make the build effective, but this is a good suggestion. Which Bard Spells do you typically extend? I never even thought of taking Extend Spell in a Bard build, and Silent Spell was thrown out because it won't be wearing armor. _________________ (I enjoy writing parenthetically (a lot)).
Which Bard Spells do you typically extend? I never even thought of taking Extend Spell in a Bard build.
Nearly all of them PfA, Darkness, Bulls, Cats, Improved Invis, Keen Edge, Warcry, Wounding Whispers, etc. By Level 16 it's not as necessary, but it does still allow you to store up more WarCries in your 5th level slots. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
how is it possible for you to get bad if monk is lawfal the bard is nutral? how can you shift the alignment upon leveling up?
Quote: Posted 11/23/09 11:37 (GMT) -- Vasteel
how is it possible for you to get bad if monk is lawfal the bard is nutral? how can you shift the alignment upon leveling up?
There is only 1 alignment shift, since he starts out taking all 6 levels of Monk during the first 6 levels of the build. So, once you hit level 6 Monk you have to make sure you start making more "Chaotic" choices that way your character will be of Neutral or Chaotic alignment by the time you hit level 7 thus opening up the ability to select the Bard class.
Quote: Posted 11/23/09 11:37 (GMT) -- Vasteel
how is it possible for you to get bad if monk is lawfal the bard is nutral? how can you shift the alignment upon leveling up?
You dont shift alignment at level up. You shift alignment by doing unlawful events during the game. The difficult thing with alignment switches is that they arent always allowed on pws due to balancing issues.
. Almost any time I get tempted into playing a build with Monk in it, it almost always degenerates into a “Fallen” monk, regardless of whether the other classes have alignment restrictions or not 