So, it's my first build, I won't feel bad if you point out flaws or whatnot with it. This class combination has never been done before, at least according to pulse cap's search engine. I saw a couple dragon builds recently, and I thought it might be nice to have dragon with Epic Dodge. Ideally, combat should consist of making use of Stunning Fists and/or Knockdowns to knock you opponent prone/stunned and then tear into them with your SA dice.
Claw 'Em When They're Down – Rogue(16), Druid(14), Champion of Torm(10) Race: Halfling / Alignment: Any Non-Evil Neutral
AC (naked halfling / leather amor + large shield / dragon): 25 / 28 / 49 +Epic Dodge +Druid spells +Defensive Roll +UMD
Fixed some stats - Kail Pendragon
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 10/13/06 11:29
Seeing strength 6 and con 8 makes me cringe, and I think your early levels are going to be rough, but eventually shapeshifting will make it a lot more bearable and fitting both dragon shape and epic dodge into the build isn't easy, so I can't complain too hard.
I'd drop weapon focus (shortsword) for extend spell, or weapon focus (sling) to capitalize on your use of zen archery and the halfling ranged AB bonus. I'd also drop weapon finesse, as I don't think it will benefit any of the shapes you'll be using and I recommend against unshifted melee for this character (so you can get extend spell there, too). I'd also drop Sneaky, maybe in favor of Strong Soul for better saves.
Good work on fitting ED into a dragonshape build, but I'm not 100% sure it's worth it in the end, unfortunately. Still, it's interesting and different, and does have some merit. By sacrificing the fourth melee attack (a reasonable option IMO, actually), you'd be able to get epic prowess and armor skin to beef up your relatively low (compared to other dragon builds) AC and AB. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Edited By Xylophone on 10/13/06 11:01
Fixed some stats. You forgot Dragon Claws (+6 AB) and Huge size (-2 AB) in the AB calculations. Also, there's no bonus to AB when attempting a KD vs smaller sized targets, not anymore ('twas fixed a looong time ago). What happens is that the target gets a modifier to his Discipline check according to the size difference between attacker and target.
BTW, capping AB means getting your hands on clerical scrolls for dragon shape, or casting true strike from scroll, shapeshifting and get one single attack off at capped AB (not really an option).
Personally, I don't build non-Monk Dragons. In this case, I think that the big loss in AC from not having monk hurts ED, especially since there aren't many ways to raise your AC: +5 Natural from Barkskin and let's add a +5 Deflection from Armor/Scrolls/what-not. Anyhow, PvM you should have no problem in the end. Starting out will be painful with those stats. Not much can be done about them though, given what you're aiming to.
Cheers, Kail _________________ Looking for a realm of adventure? Check out World of Greyhawk, you won't regret it.
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 10/13/06 11:18
Quote: Posted 10/13/06 11:11 (GMT) -- Xylophone
Seeing strength 6 and con 8 makes me cringe, and I think your early levels are going to be rough, but eventually shapeshifting will make it a lot more bearable and fitting both dragon shape and epic dodge into the build isn't easy, so I can't complain too hard.
I'd drop weapon focus (shortsword) for extend spell, or weapon focus (sling) to capitalize on your use of zen archery and the halfling ranged AB bonus. I'd also drop weapon finesse, as I don't think it will benefit any of the shapes you'll be using and I recommend against unshifted melee for this character (so you can get extend spell there, too). I'd also drop Sneaky, maybe in favor of Strong Soul for better saves.
Good work on fitting ED into a dragonshape build, but I'm not 100% sure it's worth it in the end, unfortunately. Still, it's interesting and different, and does have some merit. By sacrificing the fourth melee attack (a reasonable option IMO, actually), you'd be able to get epic prowess and armor skin to beef up your relatively low (compared to other dragon builds) AC and AB.
He can't drop WF: shortsword since he needs it to qualify for CoT. _________________ Heavy metal Or no metal at all Whimps and posers Leave the hall!
You are absolutely right about weapon finesse, I thought there might be a few decent forms with high Dex and lower STR, but upon looking at the list, I see this is not the case. Extend spell would really probably be better here.
The weapon focus, on the other hand, is non-negotiable, since CoT needs WF in a melee weapon as a requirement. And I looked at Luck of Heroes, then at the saving throws for this guy, and it really seems less than useful.
Frankly, if you sacrifice the 4th attack and take Epic Prowess, you just traded +1 AB with 4 attacks for +1AB with 3 attacks. Really doesn't seem worth it to me. As for AC, this build get to retain its Dex bonus to dodge even when being attacked by multiple opponents, so it's really not that bad off comparably, even if it is not as good 1v1 due to the lack of the +Wis and +Dex they normally get.
Edited By Ariel Thomas on 10/13/06 11:17
Quote: Posted 10/13/06 11:19 (GMT) -- Ariel Thomas
You are absolutely right about weapon finesse, I thought there might be a few decent forms with high Dex and lower STR, but upon looking at the list, I see this is not the case. Extend spell would really probably be better here.
The weapon focus, on the other hand, is non-negotiable, since CoT needs WF in a melee weapon as a requirement. And I looked at Luck of Heroes, then at the saving throws for this guy, and it really seems less than useful.
Frankly, if you sacrifice the 4th attack and take Epic Prowess, you just traded +1 AB with 4 attacks for +1AB with 3 attacks. Really doesn't seem worth it to me. As for AC, this build get to retain its Dex bonus to dodge even when being attacked by multiple opponents, so it's really not that bad off comparably, even if it is not as good 1v1 due to the lack of the +Wis and +Dex they normally get.
The problem in losing DEX AC when mobbed is a bug actaully. You can minimize it by keeping on clicking on your target if you see you are about to drop out of combat mode. Getting mobbed in itself doesn't make you lose any DEX bonus to AC. _________________ Heavy metal Or no metal at all Whimps and posers Leave the hall!
I was under the impression getting attacked by something other than your target made you flatfooted, therefore you lose dodge / Dex bonus to AC without Uncanny Dodge which lets you keep your Dex bonus
Oh, and the bonus vs spells is +6 not +3, silly me for using another build as a template and not changing that...
Edited By Ariel Thomas on 10/13/06 11:24
Quote: Posted 10/13/06 11:52 (GMT) -- Ariel Thomas
I was under the impression getting attacked by something other than your target made you flatfooted, therefore you lose dodge / Dex bonus to AC without Uncanny Dodge which lets you keep your Dex bonus
No, that's not the case. Not normally at least. What happens is that when you are mobbed, there's a collision bug that happens every now and then to push your target away from you, making it unreachable and making you drop out of combat mode and become flatfooted as you just stand still doing nothing. IF you see that wild collisions begin taking place keep on reclicking on your target to prevent this from happening.
Attackers beyond the first get a +2 AB flanking bonus, unless you've got Defensive Awareness II (DwD). That's all that should happen and Uncanny Dodge doesn't help weith that.
TyrTemplar's template, uh? Highly recognizable
Cheers, Kail _________________ Wait for me Dragon, we'll meet in the sky By fire and magic, I'm sworn Hell is calling, we cannot be denied Fly to the blackness of the Storm
We must die to be reborn!
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 10/13/06 11:30
Quote: Posted 10/13/06 11:19 (GMT) -- Ariel Thomas
You are absolutely right about weapon finesse, I thought there might be a few decent forms with high Dex and lower STR, but upon looking at the list, I see this is not the case. Extend spell would really probably be better here.
The weapon focus, on the other hand, is non-negotiable, since CoT needs WF in a melee weapon as a requirement. And I looked at Luck of Heroes, then at the saving throws for this guy, and it really seems less than useful.
That's my bad, not enough coffee this morning.
The Elder Air Elemental shape has a high dex for weapon finesse, but this character doesn't get it (need 18 or 20 druid levels, I forget which). Quite a nice shape, actually, but lots of levels to get it.
Quote: Frankly, if you sacrifice the 4th attack and take Epic Prowess, you just traded +1 AB with 4 attacks for +1AB with 3 attacks. Really doesn't seem worth it to me. As for AC, this build get to retain its Dex bonus to dodge even when being attacked by multiple opponents, so it's really not that bad off comparably, even if it is not as good 1v1 due to the lack of the +Wis and +Dex they normally get.
Your fourth attack is made at -15 to AB; even in your dragon shape, against nontrivial opponents it is likely to only ever hit on a 20, which is a 5% hit rate. (The third attack, at -10, is also likely to only ever hit on a 20 against a non-trivial enemy).
However, your first and second attacks probably will hit on less than a 20 against nontrivial opponents, and increasing their AB by +1 increases their chance of hitting by 5% each. That's why I consider it a viable tradeoff, hitting on a 20 is a +5% hit rate once; +1 AB to the first and second attacks is a +5% hit rate twice. So you should, in theory, experience a slight increase in the number of attacks you hit with, even though you're making fewer attacks per round. The attacks that don't need a 20 to hit, should see more of an increase in hit rate than simply adding another attack that does need a 20 to hit.
It will be a small gain, but you also get +2 to AC out of the move.
In the end, season to taste with all builds, of course... but the simple existence of a 4th attack isn't necessarily better. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Edited By Xylophone on 10/13/06 11:35
Xylo, if he moves CoT lvls in Epic he'll lose 1 AB which becomes a wash after getting EP in Epic. He would be basically trading 1 attack for +2 AC. _________________ Heavy metal Or no metal at all Whimps and posers Leave the hall!
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 10/13/06 11:35
Ah, for some reason I was thinking being flanked makes you flat-footed, which is pretty silly in hindsight.
Doh... that's right, if the final AB ends up being a wash because of the BAB loss, then there's no point to bothering. I should stop while I'm behind.
Though the theory's right, in this case I'm applying it with too much stupid to get right. _________________ Experience is the mother of good judgement; bad judgement is the father of experience.
Oh, I guess it's worth noting you can lose 80 Skill points and add a point to Dex, freeing up a feat to be used on Epic Prowess or Armor Skin if you really want it.
