This class split has done many times before. This is the only one that uses this exact level distribution though. I went with SD 7 to get Slippery Mind to help with the low will save. This is an elven build that doesnt get an xp penalty anywhere in the build. 42 AB, 31 AC, 9d6 sneak attack, 438 hp's (not bad for an elven fighter with 24 total levels of rogue/shadowdancer), Epic Dodge and SC IV. Weapon I chose was the rapier. The only thing I wasnt sure of was how to distribute all the skill points...I tried to get most of the rogue skills to 40, but do they all need to be that high? I think adding set traps would be good, but i'm not sure what is a good number to have all the rogue skills end at?
Elf Any Alignment 1-40 PvM
STR 10 DEX 18 (32) CON 14 WIS 10 INT 14 CHA 8
Saves
FORT 22 REFL 34 WILL 18
AB 42/37/32/27 1-6+6 (15-20/x2) 9d6 sneak attack AC 31 HP's 438
Skill Points (320)
Disable Trap 38 (40) Discipline 40 Hide 43 (54) Move Silently 43 (54) Open Lock 29 (40) Search 36 (40) Tumble 40 Use Magic Device41 (40) Points Left 10
1. Rogue1 Luck of Heroes 2. Fighter1 Weapon Finesse 3. Fighter2 Knockdown, Weapon Focus 4. Rogue2 DEX (19) 5. Rogue3 6. Fighter3 Dodge 7. Fighter4 Weapon Specialization 8. Rogue4 DEX (20) 9. Rogue5 Mobility 10. ShadowD1 11. ShadowD2 12. ShadowD3 DEX (21), Improved Knockdown 13. ShadowD4 14. Fighter5 15. Fighter6 Iron Will, Blind Fight 16. Rogue6 DEX (22) 17. Fighter7 18. Rogue7 Toughness 19. Fighter8 Improved Critical 20. Rogue8 DEX (23) 21. ShadowD5 Great DEX I (24) 22. Fighter9 23. Rogue9 24. Fighter10 DEX (25), Great DEX II (26), Epic Weapon Focus 25. Rogue10 Improved Evasion 26. Fighter11 27. Rogue11 Great DEX III (27) 28. Fighter12 DEX (28), Epic Weapon Specialization 29. Rogue12 30. Rogue13 Great DEX IV (29), Epic Dodge 31. Fighter13 32. ShadowD6 DEX (30) 33. ShadowD7 Self Concealment I 34. Rogue14 35. Fighter14 Epic Prowess 36. Rogue15 DEX (31), Self Concealment II 37. Fighter15 38. Rogue16 Self Concealment III 39. Fighter16 Armor Skin, Self Concealment IV 40. Rogue17 DEX (32) _________________ "This is where we fight! This is where they die!"
40 UMD is a bit much IMO.
You could dump your remaining points into Heal, or cross class it into Spellcraft for a few Spell Save points.
At first I was going to suggest replacing Toughness with Stealthy (for +2 Hide/MS) but 40 HPs might be better. Not sure.
Nice distribution of levels without triggering XP penalties.
Looks pretty good.
As for your skill questions:
if you're dealing with epic traps, you'll want a modified* score of 42 in Search, 45 in Set Trap, and 38 in Disable in order to guarantee success.
Add +10 to your Disable skill if you want to recover epic traps.
If you're not going to be dealing with epic traps, then you can drop the modified scores to:
Set: 25 Disable: 16 (add 10 if you want to recover) Search: 21
*modified includes your DEX/INT modifiers, skill focus or epic skill focus feats, item/spell boosts, and armor check penalties (if applicable).
*edit* Other Rogue skills such as Open Lock, Hide, and Move you'll want to keep maxed (assuming you're going for the sneaky Rogue type). UMD is a personal preference and is really dependent on whether your environment is high magic or not. If it's very high magic, then a high UMD is essential. Otherwise, you can cut back on it a bit. Keep in mind that under hardcore rules, you have to pass a UMD check of DC 25 + spell level in order to successfully cast from scrolls, so you'd want a minimum of 33 ranks in UMD in that type of setting. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 01/18/07 20:41
Thanks for the replies! Cin, thanks for the knowledge of the rogue class and skills. Bromium, I think I will keep toughness, but thanks for the suggestion. _________________ "This is where we fight! This is where they die!"
Quote: Posted 01/18/07 20:15 (GMT) -- Bromium
40 UMD is a bit much IMO.
There's no such thing as too much UMD.
Not quite sure why I just thought of this, but would it not be better to pick up the dual wield feats and drop Luck of Heroes, Iron Will and Improved Critical? I know that would make my Will save even lower, but is there really much of a difference between 15 and 18? Its terrible either way and could do more damage with the dual wield feats.
Maybe, two weapons will drop your AB by 2, which isn't that high btw, but will grant more APR for sneak damage, it's a thing of taste. Luck of Heroes and Iron Will aren't important at all, I like Improved Critical on my melee builds, but it's not 100% needed if you wish to change it.
I find Self Concealment excessive, with a good AC, Epic Dodge and UMD, SF IV won't add that much, I'd take DEX instead or drop Fighter for Rogue.
Quote: Posted 02/22/07 06:08 (GMT) -- galelabriel
Not quite sure why I just thought of this, but would it not be better to pick up the dual wield feats and drop Luck of Heroes, Iron Will and Improved Critical? I know that would make my Will save even lower, but is there really much of a difference between 15 and 18? Its terrible either way and could do more damage with the dual wield feats.
Its your build buddy!! literally... its up to you.
Your damage with this build comes from sneaks and hits so ic isnt that important, depending on your wpn of choice (note, it is customary to atleast post one that you will be using so we can get a feel for where you were going with the build). It can make a big difference with IC for example IF you were using kamas vs rapiers. But BUT with this build the bulk of your damage is going to come from the sneaks, so crit isnt important. Your comments on the save feats is valid if your intent is to do massive sneak damage. Dual weilding with a dex of 32 base isnt that high. Dual weilding dexers can get their dex up to 40 or so so 32 may be seen as low for that. In the end its up to you. I hope i gave you bits to think on though. _________________
Your damage with this build comes from sneaks and hits so ic isnt that important, depending on your wpn of choice (note, it is customary to atleast post one that you will be using so we can get a feel for where you were going with the build).
Made at first with rapier in mind and if dual wielding, short swords. I initially wanted to keep my AB and Crit Range as high as I could get them, and ofcourse you dont have to dual wield all the time. I've noticed, through reading a lot of posts, that most think its a good idea to dual wield when a good amount of sneak damage is involved. But, that unless using kukris, most think it is a waste to take improved critical with a finessable weapon. Thanks for the replies.
I find Self Concealment excessive, with a good AC, Epic Dodge and UMD, SF IV won't add that much, I'd take DEX instead or drop Fighter for Rogue.
I've also noticed that people arent so high on taking Self Concealment as well. That is something I will think about. Thanks.
ITs not that peeps dont like self concealment. IT becomes redundant with Imp invis (yes dispell comes in). If you want defence, go self conceal. If you want damage, go dual weild. ITs up to you. Self conceal is a huge investment for a set of feats that is so easily duplicated by a spell, imho.
Personally I find Self Concealment a very useless feat, you normally already have Epic Dodge, UMD and lots of AC if you go for it, and Self Concealment I to III get wasted against Blind-Fight, Self Concealment IV gets an effective 16% agains Blind-Fight, plus that Improved Invisibility already gives 50% (25% against Blind-Fight), so you need to aim for Self Concealment V to make it whrothwhile, making it the heaviest feat-stat investment (heavier than even Devastating Critical or Dragon Shape), so I judge it's a bad feat. It will only excell where Improved Invisibility is nerfed or the like.
I would drop SD to 5 and take 2 more Rogue levels. A few more skillpoints, 1d6 more sneak damage, and Rogue 19 gets you a bonus Rogue feat which you can use either for Slippery Mind (which you got with SD7), or for something else (Crippling Strike, Improved Sneak Attack, etc.).
Personally, given your low Will save, I would take Crippling Strike over Slippery Mind anyway. You will still probably fail the second roll, so just make immunity to mind spell items a priority and focus the feats on offense.
TM
Used TM's suggestions by dropping SD to 5 and raising Rogue to 19 (and got over my fear of building with xp penalties as well, hey its only at the end of the build)
The build only loses 4 hps and Slippery Mind. Which, as TM stated, is not going to make that much of a difference with 15 Will anyways. Gains Self Concealment V, 1d6 sneak attack and 4 skill points.
Rogue 19 / Fighter 16 / Shadowdancer 5
Elf Any Alignment 1-40 PvM
STR 10 DEX 18 (32) CON 14 WIS 10 INT 14 CHA 8
Saves
FORT 21 REFL 33 WILL 15
AB 40/35/30/25 40/35 1d6+6 (19-20/x2) 10d6 sneak attack AC 31 HP's 434
Skill Points (324)
Disable Trap 38 (40) Discipline 40 Hide 43 (54) Move Silently 43 (54) Open Lock 29 (40) Search 36 (40) Tumble 40 Use Magic Device 41 (40) Points Left 14
I would actually re-work the skill distribution to fit in some Set Traps and Spellcraft.
grizzled_dwarflords Black Blade of Moradin build Click Here (which is a great build) has been talked about again recently. Thought I would offer up this guy for all the pointed ear lovers.
