I didn't see a build anything like this on the forum or the build search engine - the only four with these three classes involved 2 or 3 levels of Bard and never went into Epic Cleric - so here it is. I've managed to merge the spellcasting power of the Cleric with the buffing power of the Bard and the archery of the Arcane Archer, to great effect. This build is very playable at all levels save the first five or so, and fares well both PvE and party PvP. It is a little weak in one-on-one PvP due to low AC. Here goes.
Elf, any non-lawful
Starting abilities: STR 8 DEX 10 CON 8 INT 10 WIS 18 CHA 16
There will be XP penalties while at levels 18-19 and 29-39. Nothing can be done about this. If playing solo, consider taking the first few levels pure Cleric... walking around as a level 1 Bard with no weapon-using capability is a PAIN. If you have a party, though, it's no problem.
Ending abilities: STR 8 (18 w/Divine Power) DEX 10 CON 8 INT 10 WIS 34 CHA 16
Skill point total: 126 ONLY raise skills when taking Bard levels. Max Tumble and Use Magic Device, and raise Perform to at least 18. The remaining 22 skill points can go into Perform or Concentration... I prefer Perform.
HP: 256 + 200 from Endurance + 8 from Aid + 8 from bardsong + 1 from Virtue = 473, though somehow I managed to get it up to 509 in a leveler. BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1 AB: 44 unbuffed, 68 fully buffed, including War Cry and Divine Power/Favor. That's +68/+63/+58/+53. AC: 18 naked + 4 from Haste + 2 from Cat's Grace + 5 from Shield of Faith + 3 from Mage Armor = 32... 41 if equipped with a nonmagical Full Plate. Keep in mind that your Bard spells suffer arcane spell failure! Saves: 20 Fort, 22 Reflex, 34 Will unbuffed. 25 Fort, 29 Reflex, 45 Will buffed.
Bard Spell Choices: Level 1 - Mage Armor, Protection from Alignment, Identify, Charm Person (depending on module) Level 2 - Cat's Grace, Ghostly Visage, See Invisibility, Ultravision Level 3 - Keen Edge, Wounding Whispers, Haste (if you don't have a haste item) Level 4 - Improved Invisibility, War Cry
Benefits: - Very high AB - With 34 raw WIS and ESF: Evocation, this build is only 2 off the best possible Implosion DC (which would require four more Great Wisdoms) - Lots of buffs available for allies - Curse Song and certain spells can massively debuff whole enemy parties - Good HP for an archer, thanks to Endurance - Decent turning ability, expanded to include elementals
Difficulties: - Mediocre AC. It's not as bad as a mage, though, and with the HP this build gets at late levels, you can really take some hits. Put up Wounding Whispers in case you end up in the line of fire. - Low Fort save, making the build vulnerable to Devastating Critical and Wail of the Banshee in PvP. If you're back where you should be, though, this shouldn't be a problem.
There is no proportion between the three classes that seems better than this to me: More Bard = a little more bardsong, but less spellcasting or attacks/round More Cleric = a few more casterlevels and maybe a bonus feat, but less attacks/round or no War Cry More Arcane Archer = a little more AB, but less spellcasting or no War Cry In each of these three instances, the benefits are outweighed by the losses. I've played this build to level 20 so far, and even with Bard 8 / Cleric 7 / AA 5, it's fantastic. Very fun to play.
Feedback? What do you think?
Edited By johann_howitzer on 02/12/07 01:39
You do need more AA, there is an important matter you're avoiding: damage. Your damage can be slightly buffed, but base damage is just low, and supposing you don't find high mighty bows your damage is going to be very low, supposing you do it could be acceptable, at the low level of only 5 AA, 1 Monk might give bigger benefit with the AC.
The purpose of this build is not to be an archer, though. I can cause some supplemental damage with my bow, and given a Mighty bow or some damage-adding arrows (as on the server I play on), the damage will go up considerably. On my usual server, at level 20 I'm causing around 20 damage per arrow, at five arrows per round.
My point was that with these three classes, which are geared toward being a support character, this is the best balance I've found. For bard support (being able to reduce enemy AB by two in groups is nothing to take lightly), you really need 12 levels of bard at least thanks to War Cry. 23 levels of Cleric are the bare minimum to keep my Implosion DC high enough to be effective most of the time. And the +3 I get to arrows from AA, not to mention Imbue Arrow, is enough to make 5 levels of AA worthwhile.
Sure, Monk would be nice for AC, but this is a support character, not a tank. I was actually able to beat a tank of the same level as me in PvP one-on-one today, and AC didn't really play a part. Thanks to cleric buffs and de-buffs, along with bardsong and curse song, I was able to beat a scythe with a bow! He was a good player, too, not a newbie.
One other consideration: this build works on modules where alignment can't be changed along the Chaotic-Lawful axis (my usual server doesn't allow becoming more Lawful). The Monk build you suggest won't; I had considered using Monk instead of Arcane Archer, but dropped the idea due to the need for alignment change.
On servers where such alignment change is possible, a monk/cleric/bard build would be good; see "What the Buff? (Monk 9/Cleric 15/Bard 16)" for an example. I couldn't figure out how to add a link, so you'll have to use the Build Search Engine to find it. Also, "What the Buff?" is a melee-oriented build.
Edited By johann_howitzer on 02/12/07 06:33
Except for the bonus feat you get on Cleric23, you cleric lvl has nothing to do with your Implosion DC at all.
Nice build, but the damage problem is something that will be a major thorn until well into the epics, I think. I'm not saying it's a huge problem for everyone, I just say it isn't me. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Cleric level may not have an effect on Implosion DC, but I didn't say it did. I said it had an effect on casterlevels, which directly affects the damage of a lot of spells. You could swap three Cleric levels for three Arcane Archer levels, I suppose... preferably pre-epic for 1 more BAB. That would also grant 1 more to Enchant Arrow and, wonder of wonders, Hail of Arrows! You would have to drop EWF for another Great Wisdom to make up the bonus spell, but a loss of 2 AB doesn't hurt too much with an AB like 68... not to mention the 2 AB bonuses from the extra Arcane Archer levels would make up the deficit!
Nice idea. Now why didn't I think of that?
I have the idea that all damage spells are capped at level 20 except Horrid Wilting (at 25), which doesn't applies to a Cleric, so your spells are at full power already... but I could be wrong.
Not being able to change your Alignment is a decisive reason, you should've said so sooner, no problem then.
Quote: I was actually able to beat a tank of the same level as me in PvP one-on-one today, and AC didn't really play a part. Thanks to cleric buffs and de-buffs, along with bardsong and curse song, I was able to beat a scythe with a bow! He was a good player, too, not a newbie.
Note that I find it very hard to believe that you beat a good scythe wielding tank on 1 to 1 PvP with that low damage and AC... I'm sure it's a playable build and should be nice to play, any build with that much Cleric is a good one, but PvP a good tank? a tank is probably the best way to beat this build up, you can kill him with Implosion or even a good Storm of Vengenace for paralisis, or damage from Fire Storm, you do have some versatile spells about to kill, still, damage is low to say you killed a good tank on 1 to 1 PvP with your bow.
What you do need is some HP, your AC is not high enough to wander about with that little HP, it migth be worth it to start with 16 WIS (ending with 32 obviously), which is enough for you to get 14 CON, +120 HP and +3 Fortitude save for 1 AB, 1 DC and 1 level 8 spell, but it might be a tough choice...
23 levels of Cleric are the bare minimum to keep my Implosion DC high enough to be effective most of the time.
Contradiction, yes/no/maybe? _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Not being able to change your Alignment is a decisive reason, you should've said so sooner, no problem then.
He stated that in the post right after you mentioned Monk...he didnt mention Monk in the original build post, so there is no reason he should have mentioned it before he did.
Why so much CHA? You're only casting 4th level spells max so you only need 14... Move those 4 points into CON, they serve no purpose that I can see where they are. How about those 2 Dex points, can't you just pick up some potions of cat's grace or get a domain to add cat's grace instead of Sun? You get +120 HPs, +3 fort in exchange for 1 AC and +1 to perform checks.
Additionally, consider if the 18 WIS is worth it? You might shift points to STR so that you can get divine might and do some divine damage with your arrows.
23 levels of Cleric are the bare minimum to keep my Implosion DC high enough to be effective most of the time.
Contradiction, yes/no/maybe?
Well, you beat me to it, Finn. the highkighted part was what I commented on. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
My apparent contradiction is easily explained - I was referring to the cleric bonus feat that allowed room for one more Great Wisdom. I didn't want to let go of Epic Weapon Focus, but with three more AA levels, the 2 AB lost is made up anyway. My fault for not reading my original post over again and just going on memory!
About the PvP battle I mentioned... if you must know, I beat him with Hammer of the Gods. He did beat me a few times, but most of the time I was able to stun him, damage him at least 50%, then repeat. He didn't have mind immunity, which, while a no-brainer, isn't always available at lower levels.
Lastly, the high CHA score. It provides another level 3 bard spell and a better turning ability. It's up to you if you want to trade those for 80 more HP. In retrospect, I'd actually take the 80 HP... build updated!! (I originally had this build going up to level 5 bard spells, so I put CHA at 16 to be on an even number, but now that I'm only going up to 4th, what you mention is indeed a possibility.)
I have the idea that all damage spells are capped at level 20 except Horrid Wilting (at 25), which doesn't applies to a Cleric, so your spells are at full power already... but I could be wrong.