There, I've made some important changes to this build, as suggested by those who posted on the old topic. I'm posting this new topic so newcomers will not have to wade through the discussion to get the full benefits the build offers.
Usually, such builds involve a level of Monk to increase AC, but as I've included Bard in the mix, that may not be possible for some players. This build, therefore, focuses on spellcasting, buffing, and archery. It excels at all three, though damage from the arrows is a bit low.
Elf, any non-lawful
Starting abilities: STR 8 DEX 10 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 18 CHA 14
There will still be XP penalties, at levels 12-20 and from 32 on.
Ending abilities: STR 8 (18 w/Divine Power) DEX 10 CON 12 INT 10 WIS 34 CHA 14
Skill point total: 132 ONLY raise skills when taking Bard levels. Max Tumble and Use Magic Device, and raise Perform to at least 18. The remaining 22 skill points can go into Perform or Concentration, or maybe Heal... I prefer Perform. Thanks to more skill points, all three skills can be maxed with three points left over!
HP: 336 unbuffed, 592 buffed, including temporary HP. BAB: +26/+21/+16/+11 AB with a nonmagical longbow: +43/+38/+33/+28 unbuffed, +67/+62/+57/+52 buffed. Naked AC: 18 unbuffed, 42 buffed. 51 with nonmagical Full Plate! Saves: 23 Fort, 22 Reflex, 33 Will unbuffed. 33 Fort, 29 Reflex, 44 Will buffed. Damage with nonmagical bow and arrows: 4-11 unbuffed, 18-25 buffed.
Bard Spell Choices: Level 1 - Mage Armor, Protection from Alignment, Identify, Charm Person (depending on module) Level 2 - Cloud of Bewilderment, Ghostly Visage, See Invisibility, Ultravision Level 3 - Keen Edge, Wounding Whispers, Dispel Magic, Haste (if you don't have a haste item) Level 4 - Improved Invisibility, War Cry, Dismissal
POSITIVE changes: - Better damage with the bow. - TEN more AC, thanks to better domains now that I don't care about turning ability! - Over 100 more Hit Points! - EIGHT more in the Fortitude save! - Slightly more skill points. - Creeping Doom and Aura of Vitality. - Cat's Grace you can cast without having to take off armor.
NEGATIVE changes: - No real turning ability. - One less in the Will save. - One less AB... somehow, taking 12 levels of mid-BAB and 8 levels high-BAB didn't improve the total BAB by one like I thought it would. Probably a bug due to taking three classes pre-epic. - More levels with an experience penalty. - No Call Lightning or Chain Lightning.
Overall, this was a dramatic improvement, at least in theory. I've yet to play this build. I might tweak the level progression and see if I can get the BAB to end up at 17 instead of 16. Implosion DC wasn't hurt, AB went down by only one, AC and HP and Fort save went waaaay up, and bow damage went up too! All that at very little cost. Thanks to all who contributed to refining this build!!
I realize one level of Monk is a better choice for AC reasons, but I prefer archery and this build works on servers that don't allow characters to become more lawful.
Note that I did NOT take Aura of Vitality into account; this is partly because I built the character fully in a leveler, then switched my domains and didn't want to relevel the whole thing just for one spell. It is also partly because I wasn't sure if the STR/CON/DEX bonuses would stack with my other buffs - if not, a +5 bonus from maxed ability buffs would trump +4 from Aura.
Lastly, feel free to take other domains. War allows you to max Cat's Grace for more AC, and Plant grants Barkskin, but the Magic domain could be taken over War for maxed Ice Storms; level 8 Cleric spells don't contain many good attack spells, with the exception of Fire Storm which won't do squat to fire-based enemies.
Any further comments?
Edited By johann_howitzer on 02/14/07 01:52
Why elf? In this case (and it may well be the only real example in the history of nwn builds) Half-elf makes more sense! You are making a zen archer so you dont need the dex! Half elf gives you access to AA without the penalty to xp. There are still more things to twink to this build, but that is all i will report as I have not seen the first version. _________________
The ONLY benefit Half-elf gives is favored class: any. Elf, on the other hand, gets FULL (rather than partial) skill affinities for Search, Listen, and Spot, plus Keen Senses. An experience penalty has no effect on the final build's quality, only the time it takes to get there, so I'd go with Elf here. Besides, I'm one of those weird people who has such fun playing a character that I like it to take a bit longer to level, and I'd take the Elven affinities and Keen Senses over the favored class. Not to mention an extra 2 in DEX adds 1 to AC (or in this case, avoids a penalty) and DEX-related skills, like Tumble. Not that a Half-elf couldn't put two points in DEX anyway...
This question of race is just one of those things that's up to the player's taste.
EDIT: I miscalculated something in the first post... the AC with a nonmagical Full Plate and all buffs should be 49, not 51.
Edited By johann_howitzer on 02/14/07 06:25
Quote: Posted 02/14/07 05:13 (GMT) -- avado
Why elf? In this case (and it may well be the only real example in the history of nwn builds) Half-elf makes more sense!
Actually, it won't be the first. There's a few others out there as well. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
OK, I tried Half-elf with this build and discovered a fatal flaw: Half-elves do NOT get proficiency with the Longbow, while Elves do. That means I'd have to take Martial Proficiency not only pre-epic, but also before Weapon Focus Longbow, which is a prerequisite for Arcane Archer. None of the pre-epic feats I've listed are ones that could be sacrificed just for the sake of avoiding an XP penalty!
Half-elf is therefore NOT a viable option for this build, I'm sorry to say.
This may sound stupid and all, but why not just go Cleric20/Bard20? I really don't see what AA is bringing to the table to this build other than to slow it down. Using this new model, you'll have a full plethora of spells, no xp penalty, same feats as before, and have a better Bard song/Curse Song. That alone makes up for any so-called AB loss you would have from dropping AA. Further, at most you would have is a +4 enhancement on your arrows. That's not exactly stellar, even in mid-magic worlds. Go Cleric20/Bard20, or Cleric26/Bard14(for undispellable Cleric Buffs and 2 bonus feats), or Cleric20/Bard18/BG2 (gets a nice save boost, and still avoids xp penalty). _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
OK, I tried Half-elf with this build and discovered a fatal flaw: Half-elves do NOT get proficiency with the Longbow, while Elves do. That means I'd have to take Martial Proficiency not only pre-epic, but also before Weapon Focus Longbow, which is a prerequisite for Arcane Archer. None of the pre-epic feats I've listed are ones that could be sacrificed just for the sake of avoiding an XP penalty!
Half-elf is therefore NOT a viable option for this build, I'm sorry to say.
LOL oh yeah!! Forgot bout that little thing
What you have proven is that Half elf IS a wasted class. THanks for that. _________________
This post is for general information purposes only, and does not constitute a legal opinion or render any legal advice. It may not be relied on for any purpose, and gives rise to
Go Cleric20/Bard20, or Cleric26/Bard14(for undispellable Cleric Buffs and 2 bonus feats), or Cleric20/Bard18/BG2 (gets a nice save boost, and still avoids xp penalty).
Great ideas. And why not add Cleric25/Bard15 for undispellable cleric buffs, one bonus feat and an even better bard song than bard14.
Quote: Posted 02/15/07 06:09 (GMT) -- avado
What you have proven is that Half elf IS a wasted class.
I have to say I disagree with you on that one. Any class that has weapon prof Martial will get the bows. Rogue will get the shortbow. There is plenty of room for the Half elf here, whenever you want to make an AA with bard or sorcerer as arcane class. IMO half elf is OK in wiz based AAs as well, as long as you have a class that gets the Martial proficiency in your build. _________________ The curve is more powerful than the sword -- BG courtesan
Quote: Posted 02/15/07 06:09 (GMT) -- avado
What you have proven is that Half elf IS a wasted class. THanks for that.
I wouldn't say that. I think there are plenty of examples of Half-elf Fighter/Bard/AAs that have some meat on their bones that don't have to worry about xp issues. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Quote: Posted 02/15/07 06:09 (GMT) -- avado
What you have proven is that Half elf IS a wasted class. THanks for that.
I'll have to disagree with you only by saying Half Elf is a wasted Race. Sorry, I couldnt resist.
Touche'. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
If you do decide to go with the cleric/ bard split and forego the AA route entirely, then of course you could always go human, or A N Other.
Arcane Archer does indeed bring something to this build. Without it, the build is incapable of doing damage except through spellcasting, which although potent is not unlimited. When you run out of spells, you run out of power until the next rest.
The Bard spells at levels 5 and 6 really don't bring much to the table. All you really have is a bunch of stuff that Cleric can do anyway, plus Dirge and Ethereal Visage, which aren't all that great. At Bard level 12, you already have the best possible buff to AB anyway.
As for taking some epic levels in Cleric, I see no real benefit other than maybe 1 more to Implosion DC. Undispellable buffs have been mentioned, but... why worry about that? You'll never have to worry about being dispelled since AB is high enough to hit anyway, and you'll be in the back of the party; it's not like being a Wizard or Sorcerer where being dispelled means extreme vulnerability - Cleric buffs are mainly AB-oriented. Frontliners who get individually dispelled should be alright as well, being strong melee characters or hard-to-find sneakers.
I see no real reason to take more Cleric or Bard at the expense of Arcane Archer. Rather than slowing the build down, it provides yet another source of usefulness. I'm sure there are enough Bard/Cleric/no-third-class builds on this forum... I wanted to get both classes reasonably high, to the point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in, and then throw in some weapon-using ability. This build is unique on this forum.
Plus, I really like archer builds and this build has a very high WIS score!
..As for taking some epic levels in Cleric, I see no real benefit other than maybe 1 more to Implosion DC. Undispellable buffs have been mentioned, but... why worry about that? You'll never have to worry about being dispelled since AB is high enough to hit anyway, and you'll be in the back of the party; it's not like being a Wizard or Sorcerer where being dispelled means extreme vulnerability - Cleric buffs are mainly AB-oriented. Frontliners who get individually dispelled should be alright as well, being strong melee characters or hard-to-find sneakers.
I see no real reason to take more Cleric or Bard at the expense of Arcane Archer. Rather than slowing the build down, it provides yet another source of usefulness. I'm sure there are enough Bard/Cleric/no-third-class builds on this forum... I wanted to get both classes reasonably high, to the point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in, and then throw in some weapon-using ability. This build is unique on this forum.
Plus, I really like archer builds and this build has a very high WIS score!
WOW! I guess Hal-elves are popular.. its just that in the 4 years that I have been here (or is it 3 yrs.. too long to remember) I cant recall a single build that used it... oh well.
I see no need to justify WHY you took 20/12/8. It is your build. It is a fine one at that. Its just that what you said above makes no sense. IF, and its a big IF, you are considering doin cleric with undispellable buffs, then its no contest. Having the 26 cleirc lvls (yes, 25, but 26 gives you the bonus feat) would change the build too much in this build to even consider it. It seems that there is a misconception that spell DC has something to do with character lvls.. it does not, iirc. Spell dc is 10 + modifier + foci+ spell lvl (not caster lv).
To say that you never have to worry bout dispells cuz you hit!! Dude, i guess you have never playd the game and had a shaman/wiz in gr sanctuary cast on you and you loose your stuff. It really sucks I used to be of this opinion in my early days, but through this wonderful forum I learnd the improvements to my thinking _________________
I think avado answered your question like no other could...
A mage in greater sanctuary casting dispel on me? Bah, it wouldn't do much. The dispel would kill his sanctuary, and I'd be able to hit with my bow (mages typically have horribly low AC, remember). That's the least of my worries, especially considering most of my buffs are low-level spells I could just recast quickly.
Thanks for the compliment! It is a sound build, and a very fun one at that. It's not an uber build by any means, but it can do a lot of useful things, and you have to admit it's getting so there aren't many more builds to be made on this forum. The fact that I found something previously unattempted is pretty cool, in my opinion!
Arcane Archer does indeed bring something to this build. Without it, the build is incapable of doing damage except through spellcasting.
That's the point. +4 enchanted arrows aren't exactly special. You could do more damage with 4 levels of Fighter than you can with 8 levels of AA. It'd also garner you Rapid Shot, EWF: Longbow, and Martial Weaponry. But that's fine. He's a support character, right?
Quote: The Bard spells at levels 5 and 6 really don't bring much to the table. All you really have is a bunch of stuff that Cleric can do anyway, plus Dirge and Ethereal Visage, which aren't all that great. At Bard level 12, you already have the best possible buff to AB anyway.
You're forgetting Bard and Curse Song, which is the point of your build, no? To be a support character? To stand in the rear and support your party? You yourself said that Bard12 is brilliant with its capacity to support a party with his song. Now, multiply that by 2 with a 15/16th level Bard/Curse Song. But again, I guess you base these decisions upon your world. I guess if one can't get their hands on +4 or better arrows, or elemental arrows, then perhaps that AA8 is a good deal. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
The +4 to arrows gained through AA stacks with whatever arrows you have equipped, unless I'm horribly mistaken (which is very possible), so it's still a big help. I admit, 4 more levels of Bardsong does grant +3 more to Dodge AC, but the reason I capped Bard at 12 is because you get +2 to Dodge AC and the max AB increase, which is +2. In hindsight, I guess +3 AC is a bit better than the benefits of AA 8. Maybe Cleric 20 / Bard 16 / Fighter 4 would be a better option, as you suggest.
The +4 to arrows gained through AA stacks with whatever arrows you have equipped, unless I'm horribly mistaken.
That bonus is only added to non-magical arrows and arrows with just elemental or some kind of damage bonus. If you have +2 arrows, you can't add +4 to it to make them +6, nor will it override the +2. AAs work best with just plain arrows and arrows with elemental damage types only, as they can still have an attack enchantment placed on it. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
According to NWN Wiki does Enchant arrow stack with magical arrows.
Enchant_Arrow _________________ The curve is more powerful than the sword -- BG courtesan
Quote: Posted 02/20/07 17:52 (GMT) -- Mick Dagger
According to NWN Wiki does Enchant arrow stack with magical arrows.
Wow. My apologies, then, for that does make a difference then, and I'll retract all my statements. All previous documentation stated that it did not stack. I see that little note at the bottom. Now I need to crank up the leveller and test the veracity of this thing. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
One last point... taking Cleric 19 / Bard 12 / AA 9 increases enchant arrow by 1, while only losing one level 9 spell slot and a casterlevel. Considering the enchanted arrows help with bypassing damage resistance (unless I'm very mistaken!), AA 9 would seem to be the better option. Unless you really feel you need the one extra Implosion.
Has the stackability been tested? Leave it to griz to confirm it _________________
Touche'. 
I used to be of this opinion in my early days, but through this wonderful forum I learnd the improvements to my thinking