Playable 1-40 PvM Based on galelabriel's suggestion in the Brood of the Mountains thread, I've decided to re-post my own version of the build, inspired by grizzled_dwarflord's wonderful concept. I'd add a link, but I don't know the syntax for links on this forum.
My apologies if this or my earlier post are seen as inappropriate; I am only trying to bring the best of my ideas to the forum. By all means, mods, feel free to close this topic if it is out of line.
I began with a simple idea: make a character that can effectively dual-wield Medium weapons. I began with Ranger, of course, since it gets ITWF without needing 15 DEX. From there, it was a simple matter to add Bard and RDD... I did a build search, and the Brood of the Mountains came up, so rather than build the entire thing from scratch, I merely heavily adapted his build to suit my needs.
Human, any non-lawful (I prefer CG, but TN and CN avoid smites) Starting abilities (ending): STR 15 (36) DEX 10 CON 14 (16) INT 14 (16) WIS 13 CHA 11 (13) All extra points are put into STR, the other increases come from the Red Dragon Disciple levels.
Skills: 296 total points, Discipline 43(58), Hide 43(43), Lore 8(11), Move Silently 43(43), Perform 30(31), Spellcraft 43(46), Tumble 43(43), Use Magic Device 43(44) Be sure to take 8 ranks in Lore before level 17.
Leveling guide: 1 - Ranger 1 --- WF Longsword, Power Attack, FE I 2 - Ranger 2 3 - Ranger 3 --- Cleave 4 - Ranger 4 5 - Ranger 5 --- FE II 6 - Ranger 6 --- Great Cleave 7 - Ranger 7 8 - Ranger 8 9 - Ranger 9 --- Improved Critical 10 - Ranger 10 --- FE III 11 - Ranger 11 12 - Ranger 12 --- Knockdown 13 - Ranger 13 14 - Ranger 14 15 - Ranger 15 --- Improved Knockdown, FE IV 16 - Bard 1 17 - Red Dragon Disciple 1 18 - Red Dragon Disciple 2 --- Curse Song 19 - Red Dragon Disciple 3 20 - Red Dragon Disciple 4 21 - Red Dragon Disciple 5 --- Overwhelming Critical 22 - Red Dragon Disciple 6 23 - Red Dragon Disciple 7 24 - Red Dragon Disciple 8 --- Devastating Critical 25 - Red Dragon Disciple 9 26 - Red Dragon Disciple 10 27 - Bard 2 --- EWF Longsword 28 - Ranger 16 29 - Ranger 17 30 - Ranger 18 --- Great Strength I 31 - Ranger 19 32 - Ranger 20 --- FE V 33 - Ranger 21 --- Bane of Enemies 34 - Bard 3 35 - Bard 4 36 - Bard 5 --- Great Strength II 37 - Bard 6 38 - Bard 7 39 - Bard 8 --- Great Strength III 40 - Bard 9
Using Longswords will incur a -4 penalty to AB while dual-wielding, rather than a -2 penalty. Alternately, I would choose a Shortsword if you want that extra AB; I just chose Longswords because I think they look awesome.
This build is very versatile in melee combat. With a very high Strength modifier, you'll do good damage and have a very high Dev Crit DC, and SEVEN attacks per round hasted... and if you find yourself getting hit a lot, just switch to a shield in the off-hand.
Vital stats: HP = 468 maxed BAB = 28 AB w/2 mundane Longswords = 40 AB w/1 mundane Longsword = 44 Base Damage = 14-21 AC w/mundane leather armor = 24 AC w/armor and mundane tower shield = 27 Saves = Fort 26, Reflex 18, Will 22
Keep in mind I'm recording the AC with unenchanted equipment and no positive DEX bonus; I recorded it in leather armor since it takes advantage of the build's +6 DEX bonus cap. The Chain Shirt and Scale Mail are also options, however. If you switch for shortswords, the 2-sword AB rises to 42, and Bardsong adds another 2 to both variants of the AB.
The main weakness of the build is low HP for a tank; to counter this, you could swap IKD for Toughness and take some points in CON late-epic instead of STR. Don't take any CON before level 25, otherwise you delay Overwhelming Crit and Dev Crit - HP increases due to CON are retroactive anyway.
Added playability range, added link - Grim
Edited By Grimnir77 on 03/07/07 19:08
Very interesting. YOu should post that your build is for PVP born at lv 40 though. No self respecting builder would build your character in the way you did it playing from lv 1.
If you look closely at the posts by the rest of us, you will note that we put that type of thing on top of each build.
Good formatting, good bolding and good build. Please pm me the playability range, and I'll paste it in at the top. Thanks. You can use BBCodes for this forum. [url=Adress]link name[/url]
See? I'll include the link when you have pm'ed me the playability range.
*EDIT* I changed the post. See how much I know, Finn.... Well, at least BBCode is somewhat similar to HTML. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Edited By Grimnir77 on 03/01/07 11:49
Read thisFAQ about formatting. _________________ The curve is more powerful than the sword -- BG courtesan
Quote: Posted 02/28/07 11:43 (GMT) -- Grimnir77
You can use standard html codes for this forum. [url=Adress]link name[/url]
See? I'll include the link when you have pm'ed me the playability range.
That's not HTML though It's BioBoard code, or whatever BBCode stands for. _________________ "With Europe liberated, the people of the world turned their attention to that old devil, the United States of America [...] We taught that monster of old the true meaning of freedom." Star Wreck
Quote: My apologies if this or my earlier post are seen as inappropriate; I am only trying to bring the best of my ideas to the forum. By all means, mods, feel free to close this topic if it is out of line.
You should not worry about that sort of thing, it doesn't seems disripectful in any way... plus it will be hard to see people complaining about somebody actually posting builds nowadays, cheers.
Seems nice, though I always complain about not using two handed weapons with that STR score, it's just a waste of potential damage.
Heh, HTML code is kind of weird to see on a forum I ain't completely sure how it's done since I've only used it once. There isn't much formatting to do on Bioware boards anyway, smileys, bold, italic, quotes and url are pretty much it.
Thanks for the welcome, avado. However, aside from not using a two-handed weapon, I don't see what's so ridiculous about the way I've built this. A high-STR tank which gets WF, Cleave, Imp Crit, and IKD pre-epic is never something to gripe about, and that much Ranger is necessary pre-epic to max BAB. Dev Crit comes pretty early, along with Curse Song for reducing enemy AB and saves. You don't need to use two weapons throughout the build... just toss on a shield and you've got yourself a pretty standard longsword-toting tank.
I'll repeat myself: this build is made to dual-wield Longswords (or Bastard Swords if you prefer) to good effect. I like the idea of swingin' two big swords around - who wouldn't? - and didn't see a build on here that catered to that. Given this purpose behind the build, any points about the way it's built from level one or not using a two-handed weapon are pretty much moot.
Firstly I like the idea behind this one, dual wielding medium weapons is always fun.
Here's my comments on this one.
I am curious to know why Bard 9? any driving reason beyond the one extra third level spell and extra bard song/ day?
If you restricted yourself to Bard 4, RDD 10 and Ranger 26, you could gain:
- A stronger animal Companion - Three Epic Feats (two bonus and a substituted Favored Enemy at 25th) - Extra HP - Extra duration in level based duration Ranger spells - You maintain the same bonus to AB & Damage from Bard & Curse Song
Also I am puzzled as to why you chose WIS 13 as you are missing out on 4th level Ranger Spells.
Some notes on Skills:
Perform - With only 9 levels of Bard your Perform ranks (including CHA modifier) only requires 15 skill points, thus freeing you up 15 to be spent elsewhere. Tumble - no point taking any more than 40 to gain the full benefit of the AC bonus
BAB - this could be increased further by delaying both Bard and RDD until epic levels, gaining you 2 extra points. Or indeed going Ranger 16/ Bard 4 pre-epic which would still result in an extra point. I realise you would forego Dev Crit at 24th level going this route by the way.
As far as feats go there is one that I am surprised is missing, bearing in mind the melee presence you seek, and that is 'Blind Fight'. This helps tremendously with concealed opponents and can be critical to survival I have found personally.
My preference is to forego KD and IKD, unless I the character I play can deliver Sneak/ Death Attack Damage, but as I say this is preference. The only reason I comment on this, is that you could gain 2 pre-epic feats for some other purpose instead.
If you are going Ranger for Dual Wielding then why not drop starting DEX to 8? You have Cats Grace as a Ranger Spell anyway and Dex enhanced items are generally quite easy to find.
Ranger and multiples of 5: "The character gains a +1 bonus to any damage delivered to his favored enemy. He also receives a +1 bonus on Listen, Spot, and Taunt checks against the favored enemy. These bonuses improve by +1 for every 5 levels that the Ranger gains," quite useful to be honest.
See the link for my take on this, but purely as reference for your build. There may be something of interest there for you...
- Base AB is up 4 points to 48 with a mundane weapon and STR to 38 (+14 modifier) - HP up by 60 to 528 - AC Leather (25) and with Tower Shield (28) - Dev Crit DC up by 1 to 44 - Fort Save is down 1, Reflex has no change and Will is down by 7 to 15. - Dev Crit is not available until 27th in this version, some 3 levels later. - You also benefit from a full complement of Ranger Spells 1st (4), 2nd (4), 3rd (4) and 4th (4).
Also of note is that you have a higher Spell Penetration check of 26+1d20 when trying to overcome Spell Resistance, making what little offensive magics that much more probable to be effective in combat (eg. Entangle, Grease and Sleep).
Bear in mind the Taunt skill is also available, which is a healthy 44 ranks unbuffed and without items. You could drop 2 Great Strength Feats in favour of an ESF: Taunt and another epic feat, without too much major impact on it here.
Thanks for the welcome, avado. However, aside from not using a two-handed weapon, I don't see what's so ridiculous about the way I've built this. A high-STR tank which gets WF, Cleave, Imp Crit, and IKD pre-epic is never something to gripe about, and that much Ranger is necessary pre-epic to max BAB. Dev Crit comes pretty early, along with Curse Song for reducing enemy AB and saves. You don't need to use two weapons throughout the build... just toss on a shield and you've got yourself a pretty standard longsword-toting tank.
I'll repeat myself: this build is made to dual-wield Longswords (or Bastard Swords if you prefer) to good effect. I like the idea of swingin' two big swords around - who wouldn't? - and didn't see a build on here that catered to that. Given this purpose behind the build, any points about the way it's built from level one or not using a two-handed weapon are pretty much moot.
Sorry I had forgotten about this.
1) You take greater than 21 ranger lvls, YET you gimp yourself on ab?
2) You take 9 bard lvls, yet your character suffers from the skill boosts all the way through til lv 33 when you start to take bard lvls (after the first one taken to get rdd i mean).
Just those little tell tale things that tell me that you more than likely play on lv 40 servers and have never had to really work for a character. THere is nothing wrong with that! I just suggested that you should post that at the start so new players dont get the idea that you should lv a character like you have it.
If you still are questioning what I mean, look at a build from Finn, grizz, mith, tyr, grim, cinnbar, kail, xylo, and if you still have troubles, look at a build from me... but thats a LAST resort imvho, an epic pvm build isnt just a bunch of lvls put together. The lvls should be put together in a way that makes the building process enjoyable. Its in the little things, like taking bard lvls throughout at lv 22, 27, 32,37 for example for tumble dumps. Taking 20 straight ranger lvs for 30 bab. Even as simple as leaving stats on important things like wisdom for rangers or pals at the lvl that actually gets them things (14 wis for example). OR something like BoE, which is a KEY of this build yet you delay it unnecessarily. And, is IKD necessary, with no sneak damage? WHat about fixing the gimped dual ab and take ambi and twf.. even itwf (which means adjusting the int/dex). These are what ALSO goes into a Epic build, not just what you end with. just my 2 cents. After all, what do I know about building... _________________
Well! I forgot about Taunt. Some responses to be made here.
+ The build is built the way it is (with Bard and RDD so early) BECAUSE it allows Dev Crit so early with two weapons. That should be a reason to think I build things from the ground up - which I do. + DEX is at 10 because a DEX buff/equip cap of 22(+6) allows Leather armor's DEX bonus cap to be "filled," netting 1 more AC. + I suppose if your server doesn't have any Freedom of Movement equipment, you could go ranger level 4 spells... but that is the ONLY spell on level 4 worth having at late levels... in fact, even late pre-epic levels when you would first get them. + Bard level 8 gives +2 AB with Bardsong, and three level 3 Bard spells with one spell slot - Keen Edge, Mag Circle, perhaps also Haste if it's needed! I'm surprised no one picked up on this. This and the previous point were the reasons I picked 13 WIS and 13 CHA. After Ranger 21, RDD 10, Bard 8, one more Bard level was the only thing that made sense - another Bard casterlevel and a second level 3 spell slot.
I did forget about Taunt... but people (especially Avado) seem to be looking only at the weaknesses of this build, not at the strengths. Ranger 26 / Bard 4 / RDD 10 is good, I've no doubt, but so is this. I will consider changing out KD and IKD, however, that was a good point!
Updated build! Now using bigger swords!
Human, any non-lawful (I prefer CG, but TN and CN avoid smites) Starting abilities (ending): STR 15 (34) DEX 10 CON 14 (16) INT 14 (16) WIS 13 CHA 11 (13) All extra points are put into STR, the other increases come from the Red Dragon Disciple levels.
Skills: 291 total points (down 5 thanks to the +2 INT increase being five levels later) Concentration 43(46), Discipline 43(55), Lore 8(11), Perform 15(16), Search 16(19), Spellcraft 40(43), Taunt 43(44), Tumble 40(40), Use Magic Device 43(44) Be sure to take 8 ranks in Lore before level 17.
Leveling guide: 1 - Ranger 1 --- WP Exotic (OR Toughness later), WF, FE I 2 - Ranger 2 3 - Ranger 3 --- Power Attack 4 - Ranger 4 5 - Ranger 5 --- FE II 6 - Ranger 6 --- Cleave 7 - Ranger 7 8 - Ranger 8 9 - Ranger 9 --- Improved Critical 10 - Ranger 10 --- FE III 11 - Ranger 11 12 - Ranger 12 --- Blind Fight 13 - Ranger 13 14 - Ranger 14 15 - Ranger 15 --- Great Cleave, FE IV 16 - Ranger 16 17 - Ranger 17 18 - Bard 1 --- Curse Song 19 - Ranger 18 20 - Ranger 19 21 - Ranger 20 --- EWF, FE V 22 - Red Dragon Disciple 1 23 - Red Dragon Disciple 2 24 - Ranger 21 --- Bane of Enemies 25 - Red Dragon Disciple 3 26 - Red Dragon Disciple 4 27 - Bard 2 --- Overwhelming Critical 28 - Red Dragon Disciple 5 29 - Red Dragon Disciple 6 30 - Red Dragon Disciple 7 --- Devastating Critical 31 - Red Dragon Disciple 8 32 - Red Dragon Disciple 9 33 - Red Dragon Disciple 10 --- Great Strength I 34 - Bard 3 35 - Bard 4 36 - Bard 5 --- Epic Skill Focus (taunt) 37 - Bard 6 38 - Bard 7 39 - Bard 8 --- Epic Prowess 40 - Bard 9
The weapon went up a grade, thanks to a spare pre-epic feat; it now uses Bastard Swords instead of Longswords! This could be traded for Toughness if you like. Strength went down by 2 in exchange for more Taunt, but since EP fit in too, it's actually an increase in net AB - lower enemy AC! Dev Crit DC went down by one, but it's already quite high, especially when buffed/equipped up to the cap of 46. Later appearance of RDD levels means more BAB, but I just HAD to stick Bard in at 18. -2 Enemy AB through Curse Song beats out 1 more BAB...
Dev Crit comes six levels later, but BoE comes NINE levels sooner. I still prefer level 3 Bard spells to level 4 Ranger spells, so no ability points were moved. They're all buffs, so no need to worry about arcane spell failure, just remove armor and cast before combat.
Vital stats: HP = 468 maxed BAB = 29 AB w/2 mundane Bastard Swords = 41 AB w/1 mundane Bastard Sword = 45 Base Damage = 13-22 Damage vs FEs = 20-39 AC w/mundane leather armor = 24 AC w/armor and mundane tower shield = 27 Saves = Fort 24, Reflex 18, Will 19
BAB and both AB went up by one; max damage went up, although average damage per round is the same. For some reason, Fort save is lower, despite having more Ranger levels pre-epic, but I think it's a mistake on my part, either before or now. Note that the original build was tested in a leveler; this update has not been. Everything but the saves I have double-checked and am certain about; thanks to a quick comparison with Samphus' build, I think the first version was mistaken even though it was built in a leveler.
Buffs: +2 AB from Bardsong, +1 AB from Aid, +6 AB from STR at cap, plus +7 AB vs FEs = maximum 61 AB self-buffed with one sword. +1 Dodge AC from Mage Armor, +6 AC from DEX at cap, +4 AC from Haste = maximum 38 AC self-buffed with tower shield. +1 to all saves from Bardsong, +1 to all saves from Resistance = Fort 26, Reflex 20, Will 21 self-buffed.
All the above is with mundane equipment, except for STR and DEX at their caps.
Comparison with I... Samphus' build (positive differences in bold): - His AB is 2 higher, thanks to 1 more BAB and 4 more STR; my higher-grade Bardsong offsets it by one. - His HP is 60 higher, thanks to Toughness and more Ranger levels. - My Will save is 4 higher...? I understand the single pre-epic Bard level gives 2, but beyond that I'm not sure. I've a sneaking suspicion that Samphus miscalculated - 20 Ranger levels plus Epic save progression should equal at least 16 Will. - My AC is a net 1 higher, thanks to Armor Skin offsetting his -1 penalty to AC from DEX, and my Curse Song dropping enemy AB by 2. - His Dev Crit DC is a net 1 higher, thanks to his 4 more STR and my Curse Song. - I have the Keen Edge, Magic Circle Against Alignment and Wounding Whispers spells, allowing more AC against certain alignments and much better melee damage against melee opponents.
Summary: I lose 2 AB, 1 Dev Crit DC, 1 Fort save, and 60 HP (or 20 if Toughness) I gain 2 Will save, 1 AC, Keen Edge, more reliable Taunt, and a damage shield
After taking all that into consideration, one must also consider that in a party setting, I would be able to buff more. Both builds are quite good, now that I've made some changes based on some wonderful suggestions!
It all comes down to preference, though in party play I think my friends would rather I played my build for the party buffs. If you really care about AB and Dev DC, go with his build, definitely.
Edited By johannhowitzer on 03/20/07 02:53
One little amendment: if you don't need such a terribly high Taunt, by all means drop the last two feats in favor of two Great Strengths - 1 more damage and dev crit DC, at the cost of 10 to Taunt skill. It's up to you.
Buffs: +2 AB from Bardsong, +1 AB from Aid, +6 AB from STR at cap, plus +7 AB vs FEs = maximum 61 AB self-buffed with one sword.
BoE gives you +2 AB vs FE's, other than that you don't gain any AB-bonuses vs your FE's. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Updated build! Now using bigger swords!