unused combo! :)

as you know i tend to make unusual builds, this is one.

the character is not very playable 1-40 but since i found an unused combo i thought i should give it a try.
the level 40 result is quite solid, imho.

basically this is an epic dodging, 50% concealed weaponmaster with a 16-20x4 threat range, lasting inspiration, 7d6 sneak and nice AC.

play this one on a high magic server where you can get weapons with added damage and nice base 0 armor robes.
this build becomes less powerful when the majority of damage that players do comes from strenght.

Singing Sushimaster - Bard 20 / Rogue 13 / WM 7

PvM, matures lately

Race: Human
Alignment: any

Stats:

Str: 8
Dex: 16 (26)
Wis: 8
Int: 14
Con: 12
Char: 16

1) Rogue - Dodge, Mobility
2) Rogue
3) Rogue - Weapon Finesse
4) Rogue
5) Bard
6) Bard - Weapon Focus: Handaxe
7) Rogue
8) Rogue
8) Bard - Spring Attack
10)Bard
11)Bard
12)Bard - Expertise
13)Rogue
14)Bard
15)Rogue -Whirlwind Attack
16)Bard
17)Weaponmaster
18)Weaponmaster - Improved Critical: Handaxe
19)Weaponmaster
20)Weaponmaster

Bard8/Rogue8/WM4 (4 APR)

21)Weaponmaster - Epic Weapon Focus: Handaxe
22)Weaponmaster
23)Bard
24)Bard - Curse Song
25)Rogue
26)Rogue - Improved Evasion
27)Bard - Armor Skin
28)Bard
29)Rogue
30)Rogue - Epic Prowess
31)Bard
32)Bard
33)Rogue - Defensive Roll, Improved Expertise
34)Bard
35)Bard
36)Bard - Epic Dodge
37)Bard
38)Bard
39)Bard - Lasting Inspiration
40)Weaponmaster

put all statpoints into dex

skills: tumble (40), perform (42), intimidate (4), 265 left over.
i'd recommend discipline, open locks, UMD, spellcraft, listen, hide, move silently.

unbuffed stats, equipped with mundane tower shield and mundane handaxe:

AC: 31
AB: 39/34/39/24, crit on 16-20/x4
saves: 16/34/18 (+spellcraft)

pros:
- lasting inspiration
- improved invisibility, which means 50% concealment without taking 5 feats
- nice threat range with x4 damage on critical
- good AC
- okay AB, you should hit most critters with song/curse song
- handaxe sushimaster

cons:
- built for high-level adventuring, matures lately
- don't play him in a very low magic setting
- bad fort and will saves
- this is not a sneak attacking hipster, use your stealth as a tool, but take your shield off
- i'd like to have 28 dex

Edited By dust7 on 04/04/07 16:51

note:
i've tried the build with ten levels of shadowdancer, too.
when you are not pushing for lasting inspiration, this is the way to go.
you'll have to take weapon proficiency: martial and will get weapon finesse at level 18.
you'll end up with something like Bard14/WM16/SD10 with much better AB and more dex (grizz has done this).

however, my bards have lasting inspiration.
in that case rogue is better, since hips is by no means essential to this character, and you gain 7d6 sneak and more skillpoints.
the bonus feat from something like bard23/SD10/WM7 would get negated by the fact that you can't wield handaxes without proficiency. Hmmm...I think there's a reason this class combo hasn't been used. How exactly are you planning on dealing damage? You're dex based, with 8 strength for a -1 penalty. You don't have Fighter for EWS. You don't really have very much Sneak damage, and what little you have lacks a good way to deliver it (no HiPS, no KD/IKD, no Invisibility/Darkness spells). Maybe in a high-magic setting where you can get plenty of +damage on your weapon it would do alright, but even then, your mediocre AB will hurt you.

I think this build shows why:

A. Dex builds need some way to add damage to their attacks.

B. 7 WM isn't worth the feat investment, especially without Fighter or CoT levels.

Props for making a build that hadn't been done before, but unfortunately I don't think it's going to be very effective. bard song, bull's strenght and warcry add some damage.
as i said this build only becomes powerful in a high magic environment where weapons have damage boni.
but there it works just fine, since the majority of damage does not come from strenght, even when strenght based.
this is not a server specific build in general, cause there are a lot high magic servers out there, considering HotU-Items extremely high magic.

i've just tested it in the novice to epic character maker.
with +12 strenght from items, bard-buffed and a handaxe with +15 bludgeoning and +15 massive criticals he managed to do crits in the 160's.

my fighter with 30 strenght using an equal one-handed weapon with x2 multiplier can't do that.

that's why i see a lot of people building dex based weaponmasters when there are good weapons available.

well, just trying to defend my build.

Quote: Posted 04/04/07 23:12 (GMT) -- Nimueh_Leafbow
A. Dex builds need some way to add damage to their attacks.

B. 7 WM isn't worth the feat investment, especially without Fighter or CoT levels.

A. See above
B. in this setting, i think it's worth it.
using a handaxe, you will have a threat range of 18-20/x3 withtout weapon master, which is a huge damage loss compared to 16-20/x4.

Edited By dust7 on 04/05/07 00:21

The problem I see with depending on high-magic weapons for damage is that this build's AB just isn't up to snuff, and environments that have +15 damage and +15 massive crits on weapons are also going to have some pretty damn high AC mobs (and plenty of big AC boosts available to players, if you're doing PvP).

Even assuming +12 dex, +20 to hit, and including the -5 penalty from Curse Song, this build caps at +70 AB. The standard human str-based fighter/WM/(tumble class) will hit +79 in the same environment (a more feat-starved and attribute-starved Half-Orc can get to +80), and if he's partied with a bard, he'll hit a de facto +84 (85) from his party member's curse. A dexer will be even higher, and archers will, of course, be higher still. In a setting where such AB values are achievable, I don't see many realm designers letting you hit very often with a +70. And if you can't hit, your crit stats don't matter at all.

Maybe I'm wrong about the nature of servers; obviously, I haven't played on all of them, so there could be some where the magical environment is such that you can get huge +damage but still have mobs with low enough AC that you can hit them and get your chance to crit. I haven't seen one, though. I think this build is cool. Yes, the playability is debatable, but I'm willing to consider this a genius theme build - wouldn't be the first one posted How the name rolls off your tongue is especially neat, "Singing Sushimaster," that should be made a movie
_________________
" -- They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more."

- Pozzo in Waiting for Godot by Samuel Beckett
Quote: Posted 04/05/07 17:23 (GMT) -- Nimueh_Leafbow

The problem I see with depending on high-magic weapons for damage is that this build's AB just isn't up to snuff, and environments that have +15 damage and +15 massive crits on weapons are also going to have some pretty damn high AC mobs (and plenty of big AC boosts available to players, if you're doing PvP).

Even assuming +12 dex, +20 to hit, and including the -5 penalty from Curse Song, this build caps at +70 AB. The standard human str-based fighter/WM/(tumble class) will hit +79 in the same environment (a more feat-starved and attribute-starved Half-Orc can get to +80), and if he's partied with a bard, he'll hit a de facto +84 (85) from his party member's curse. A dexer will be even higher, and archers will, of course, be higher still. In a setting where such AB values are achievable, I don't see many realm designers letting you hit very often with a +70. And if you can't hit, your crit stats don't matter at all.

Maybe I'm wrong about the nature of servers; obviously, I haven't played on all of them, so there could be some where the magical environment is such that you can get huge +damage but still have mobs with low enough AC that you can hit them and get your chance to crit. I haven't seen one, though.

thanks for your input.
i totally agree that the AB is not very good.
that's the weak point of the build, not the damage.
(just equip him with a nice weapon with some extra damage, buff up and smack the fighter in the novice to epic character maker, those crits are pretty cool for an epic dodge build )

now, buffed it does not look that bad after all.
you get +2 from your song, +2 from warcry, some from cat's grace and +5 from curse song.
it is still debatable if you will hit epic mobs, but on the servers i have played on, you will hit most things.
in addition, the main aspect of the build is to survive, and it is pretty awesome at this.
most weapons top out at a +5 bonus but have mentioned added damage (+10-15 massive crits and often a little elemental damage), so there is plenty of room for your buffs to give you AB, curse song not counting towards the cap.

in my experience, PW mobs have either very high AB or very high AC. it just does not make sense to give them both, since most melee builds will be screwed when you force them to achieve insane AB and AC.
on the "AC" server the strenght based frt/wm/tumbleclass guys will bite the dust long before they can make a good use of their AB, since they got not ED, no concealment and low AC.

as i mentioned, you are right that the AB is nothing to be proud of, but in the right environment this build is just
cool, for example HotU.

does anyone know world of amon, by the way?

greetings
dusty

edit:
check this one out:
Click Here

a similar idea behind the build, this one provides much better AB, but loses lasting inspiration, sneak dice... and is a different build.

Edited By dust7 on 04/06/07 09:47