Warning: Players are advised that numerous animals (including dires), beasts and magical beasts were harmed, dominated, trapped and killed during extensive play-testing of this build, PvP (level 40) and PvM (1-40)
SUPERNATURAL HUNTER (Shape-Shifter Slayer) By Tyr and Company*
Quote: *Special Credits and Acknowledgments: I would like to thank Grim for his comments and never ending support throughout the building process (both as to story and to build, and other builds, such that he deserves equal credit for this build). Special thanks also goes out to Thax for his comments on an earlier draft of this build, and also to Bromium for piquing my curiosity about the Shape-Shifters in the first place, which ultimately led to this build. Posted below, along with a variant, is the actual build; what follows first is a ghost story, full of haunting lore about shape-shifters and other supernatural from Celt-Norse and elsewhere, in answer to the ultimate question: ever wonder where zombies and vampires, skin-walkers and demons (and demonic abilities to possess humans) *really* come from? (enjoy!) ~ Tyr )
When the Hunted Becomes the Hunter: A Supernatural Tale By Deborah “Tyr” Templar
There are things that are older than the rocks and the tree roots, which far pre-date Christianity, and are much scarier than ghosts; these old things are known in Celtic-Norse lore as being the “underground” people, who could not live on middle-earth among mortals. The underground people included many different beings, from dark dwarves and dark elves, to goblin-phantoms (in Anglo-France), and also trolls and changelings. Many had a penchant for stealing humans, newborn babies mostly, but some of the underground people also stole young lads and lasses, including brides who were in special danger of being kidnapped and eaten by trolls on their wedding night. Throughout Indo-Europe, these underground beings collectively came to be known as ‘supernatural’ (from whence the stories of demons and demonic possessions came, as subsequently recounted and told by Christians).
The scariest of the supernatural by far were changelings, who had the ability to shape-shift, to take the form of another being -- animal or human, whether living or dead, and they would often venture to middle-earth in order to baby swap, stealing a human child and leaving in its place either an adult changeling or its own deformed child (either way, the theft was hidden so far as the changeling – adult or child – would take the form of the stolen child, such that the stolen child’s parents were none the wiser about the theft until it was far too late); still other supernatural beings existed, especially among the Germanic, Ice Lander and Slavic peoples, which beings included a host of evil monsters and spirits involving the undead, otherwise known as the dead who refused to stay dead (draugr and Aptrgangr in Norse, or the “Walking Dead”); these beings were blood-suckers, vampire-like creatures and evil specters, who were known to venture out to feed on vermin and livestock; but it is for human flesh and blood they mainly hungered. Whether out of jealousy and contempt for the living, or simply out of a desire to taste more life, undead beings would feed on all who crossed their path at night. Walking undead are mostly revenants, but some are capable of shape-shifting, including female ghouls of Islamic lore and Russia’s erestsun (living-born evil vampire witches and sorcerers), enabling the supernatural to infiltrate the land of the living, and feed at will.
Whereas the Australians, Japanese, Arabs, Greeks and Africans speak of half human/half animal beasts, others have witnessed shape-shifting dragons and dragon-like beasts, with parallel tales told by the Native American peoples. There being Cherokee lore of witches and wizards shape-shifting into elemental forms, tormenting ill persons until they are dead, and then eating the liver to extend their own lives by as many days as they stole. The Abenaki tell a tale of an old male witch comparable to an undead vampire. But even more fearful is Mexico’s tlahuelpuchi, an evil shape-shifting female human who can cast magic and assume animal forms, having psychic powers over human minds, and who sucks the life-blood from human infants.
The next time you open your door to a strange knock in the night, will it bring you any comfort at all to know that other world cultures have seen and affirmed the existence of what Nordic-Celts have long suspected: that in the dark and well-hidden places lurk things that are older than the rocks and the tree roots, such that the human race is not alone?
But as surely as there are supernatural walking unnaturally among humans on earth, who live deep beneath the earth and come up from under the rocks or otherwise to feed on or kidnap and trade places with humans, there are also those brave few humans who have dedicated their lives to tracking supernatural down and killing them. These hunter-trackers are known as the supernatural hunters, who specialize in ensuring that the dead stay dead, and unnatural things are evicted from the land of the living.
Some of these hunters came into their occupation through generational training, in the same way that a parent hands down a family trade or business to his or her child, while others felt the need to answer a special calling. A few, however, came into the job to exact revenge for a loved one, to kill the evil undead or other supernatural who preyed on a family member; while all things who specialize in killing things are dangerous, this particular brand of supernatural hunter, the one who stumbles onto the job out of a need to avenge the death of a loved one, is typically the most dangerous of all, more dangerous even than the supernatural he hunts: for with each kill, another supernatural gone, only makes this breed of hunter hunger for more. In time, the hunter’s hatred and insatiable quest for revenge against the supernatural only begins to wear down the very thing which drove the hunter into action in the first place -that of her humanity: when all compassion for the hunted thing is lost, even although it is only but a thing she hunts, does she not begin to resemble the very thing she hunts?
The Supernatural Hunter, Shape-Shifter Slayer, is the latter kind of hunter; one who kills and relishes the hunt, who came into the job for the purpose of avenging the loss of a sibling taken by a vampire-like creature, a skin-walker. For years Hunter studied matters of the supernatural, training hard and long, and learning about specialized techniques and the tools required to kill these beings, all the while searching high and low for his lost sister until one day the Hunter came upon a cave in the woods where lived what was thought to be the being responsible for kidnapping his sister; cautiously, but without fear, having prepared himself and his tool bag for whatever horrors lay beyond, Hunter entered the cave, his tools readied and waiting, and hoping, to free his sister. He was barely inside the cave when suddenly standing before him was a supernatural, with long canine-like fangs and claws, and it was hissing; the being did not look like a supernatural monster, however; rather, the being appeared in form to be his sister. Reacting, quickly, driven as much by horror as by hatred, Hunter drove his silver-tipped iron knives deep into the thing and wrestled with it; he took it to the ground at which point he cut at its neck cord, and decapitated it; reaching next into his tool bag he pulled out a torch, which he lit, and then put to the severed pieces. He took quiet pleasure as he set the thing ablaze, watching as it burst into flame and its parts react, as if the thing were wreathing in pain. Soon, it was over: the thing reduced by the flames to nothing more than two smile piles of harmless ashes. “The dead should stay dead,” muttered Hunter to himself.
But whether it was a shape-shifter who had killed Hunter’s sister and thereafter passed itself off as her by taking her form, or whether it was in fact Hunter’s sister, ravaged by a disease bled into her so as to herself become a shape-shifter, it mattered not to Hunter anymore: on coming to the stark realization that his sister was dead and forever lost, a piece of Hunter’s humanity also died that day. On that day, he vowed to pour himself into his studies, to learn even more about the things he hunted, and to go out of his way forever more to hunt them all down, and kill them. His would be a life thereafter dedicated to ensuring that every supernatural, regardless of its name or form, would suffer the consequences for what the one of them had done to his sister.
It was on this day that he became the Supernatural Hunter.
Quote: Other Builds: Supernatural Hunter is unique. Although not the first to utilize the class combo (there being 3 in total, only 2 of which are bane rangers, namely: Fernandooa’s Versatile Ranger (Ranger 33 / Fighter 4 / Assassin 3), Click Here (a dexer w. bow and sword focus) and Grizzled Dwarflord’s A Journeyman Grim (Ranger 30 / Fighter 4 / Assassin 6), Click Here (a cool pvm ranger, and a nice skill set).
This build is power, and a true testament to the power of the ranger class as a ranger, and as a result of not just bane (vs. 10 FEs) but also the ranger’s highly specialized skill-set – animal empathy in particular, which (as this build shows) is to the ranger what taunt is to bards, and terrifying rage is to barbarians, as it enables this build to literally at will dominate (daze) FEs (namely, shape-shifters (i.e., animals, including dires, beasts and magic beasts); in turn, this build is not only playable, powerful, but also seems to be the first to focus in animal empathy, all of which in turn makes the Supernatural Hunter unique.
Highlights – Pros and Cons:
• Very High/PG AB (your choice: AB 47 (Nat. 45, +2 Bane vs. 10 FEs) –OR- AB 48 (Nat. 46, +2 Bane vs. 7 FEs), wonderful on a ranger, and just plain WM-like precision
• Lethal Damage Output (being STR based w. dual-wield ability, bolstered not only by FTR WS/EWS and a little sneak die, but Ranger’s FE and Bane, Supernatural Hunter slices through enemies like there’s no tomorrow – coupled w. high AB (PG precision), traps (or stealth), and a very useful animal companion (i.e., Panther, 35 Lev. Rogue), this build is a true testament to the powers of the ranger class-qua-ranger
• Magic Access. Innate Ranger Casting, and UMD (always nice to have on a melee build)
• Nice Defense. While there’s no such thing as too much AC, the Supernatural Hunter’s AC is just as good as (if not even better than) a plate-wearing WM (thanks to tumble (assassin), and especially nice on a strength-based ranger); fort and reflex saves are also quite decent (bolstered by non-dispellable ranger spells, UMD), and s/he enjoys over 500 HPs (also very nice on a ranger); will save is low, however, and you’ll want to get clarity potions and/or put your UMD to good use, and shore it up
• Special Skills -- Animal Empathy (Ranger Foci): as if all of the above is not enough, Supernatural Hunter’s specialized ranger skills lets him/her dominate enemies quite literally at will – i.e., all neutral and hostile animals (incl. dires), beasts and magical beasts (dominates NPCs, dazes PCs (i.e., shape-shifter forms); also incredibly useful to “steal” enemy summons, too
Without any further ado, please meet the Supernatural Hunter (shape-shifter slayer, followed by the natural born killer variant): _________________ Dead I am the one, Exterminating son; Slipping through the trees, strangling the breeze; I am the rat, feast upon the cat; Tender is the fur, dying as you purr; Dig through the ditches, Burn through the witches…Burn like an animal ~ Zombie, Dragula (1998)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 08/07/07 21:10
SUPERNATURAL HUNTER (Shape-Shifter Slayer) Ranger(35), Assassin(1), Fighter(4) Human, Any Evil (Theme: CE – you hunt and kill dangerous things, but want them to suffer)
• SF/ESF Note: SF/ESF Disc. gives +13 on your check to avoid KD, etc. (useful for a hunter vis-à-vis Dragons); however, SF/ESF Anim. Emp. is not only useful, but also fun as it lets you dominate/daze animals (incl. dires), beasts and magical beasts (NPCs and PC shifters alike for whom 55 ranks (animals, dires) and 59 ranks (beasts, magical beasts) are needed – and which you fully and completely achieve on your own w. SF/ESF (55, +4 one.w.land: 59 ranks (self-buff, nothing more required), such that you in essence dominate/daze your major prey at will; also, lets you easily “steal” enemy summons.
* Magical Beasts: if you go SF/ESF animal emp. route (letting you dominate/daze magical beasts), might consider dropping this FE in favor of dwarf which, together w. human and elf, make up the 3 typical PC shifter/druid races (i.e., even though most druid-shifters are typically weak when unshifted, should be noted that dwarf, human and elves are the most popular PC races moreover and in any event); conversely, if content w. 7 FEs (covering off all 7 playable races only for e.g., in exchange for even more natural AB & AC), see Natural Born Killer variant (below).
Assuming +5 keen kukris, Str and haste: AB 57/57/52/52/47/42/59 • Damage: * Main: 1-4+28, +5 pow. attack (-5 ab) +10-20 FEs (crit: 12-20/x2), +1d6 sneak (Total: 44-57/x2 on a crit., +1d6 sneak per hit, or: 45-63 damage per hit), x's 5 apr On a crit: 89-120 damage per crit.
* Off: 1-4+19, +5 pow. attack, +10-20 FEs (crit: 12-20/x2), +1d6 sneak (Total: 35-48/x2 on a crit., +1d6 sneak per hit, or: 36-54 damage per hit), x's 2 apr On a crit: 71-102 damage per crit.
iii) Comparative – Greatsword: • Mundane Greatsword: Damage: 2-12+22, +3 Thirst, +5 pow.att (-5 ab) +10-20 FEs (17-20/x2), +1d6 sneak • Assuming +5 keen greatsword, STR and Haste: 2-12+36, +5 pow.attack (-5 ab) +10-20 FEs (crit: 15-20/x2), +1d6 sneak (Total 53-73/x2 on a crit., +1d6 sneak per hit, or: 54-79 damage per hit), x’s 5 apr On a crit: 107-152 damage per crit.
Other: Ranger Spells (incl. grease, entangle), Animal Empathy, UMD, and Very Useful Animal Companion, as follows (recommended):
Quote: • Panther, 35 level Rogue (finesser) AB 30, +5 GMF, +3 Cat’s, +1 Aid, or: AB 39/34/29 * AC 18+3 Cat’s, or: 21 Claw: 1-10+3 (20/x2) / Claw: 1-10+3 (20/x2) / Bite: 2-10+3 (20/x2) +5 Greater Magic Fang, and high sneak damage
• Bear, 35 Level Creature (melee’r) AB 35, +5 GMF, +1 Aid, or: AB 41/36/31 * AC 16+2 Cat’s, or: 18 Claw: 2-20+12 (20/x2) / Claw: 2-20+12 (20/x2) / Bite: 3-36+12 (20/x2) +5 Greater Magic Fang, and high HPs
Tip: Remember to feed your animal companion after battle (fully heals it without need for rest), whom you can further enhance via UMD/scrolls (i.e., bulls, battletide, etc.)
Defense Vitals:
17 AC (naked) * Mundane Studded Leather: 20, +2 Cat's, or 22 AC (25 w. shield); assuming +5 items, dex, haste, umd/mage armor: 50 AC (w. shield, 58 AC)
*Mundane Plate: 25, +2 Cat's, or 27 AC (30 w. shield); assuming +5 items, haste, umd/mage armor: 52 AC (w. shield, 60 AC)
•Note: add +5 to above fig if took expertise (+5 AC/-5 AB while in expert mode)
* Feel free to adjust your Hunter's skill-set to suit your own preferences/environs.
--- WHAT FOLLOWS is the Supernatural Hunter, Natural Born Killer (Variant)
--- _________________ Dead I am the one, Exterminating son; Slipping through the trees, strangling the breeze; I am the rat, feast upon the cat; Tender is the fur, dying as you purr; Dig through the ditches, Burn through the witches…Burn like an animal ~ Zombie, Dragula (1998)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 08/07/07 21:16
Supernatural Slayer – Natural Born Killer (Variant) Ranger(30), Assassin(2), Fighter(8)
Race: Human / Alignment: Any Evil (Theme: CE, as above)
Stealth Option: 34 each into Hide and M/S (final: 42(41); w. self-buffs as follows: - Hide (41, +2 Cat's, +4 one.w., +20 stacking camou. and mass camou: 67, +4 more outdoors (trackless step, or: 71 self-buffed, and add +2 more if took stealthy); - M/S (41, +2 cat's, +4 one.w: 47, +4 outdoors, or: 51 self buffed, and +2 if took stealthy). The rest into spellcraft (14(15) ranks for +3 all-saves vs. spells).
Traps option: 38 points into spellcraft (for 19(20) (+4 all-saves v spells), leaving 58 points for deadly traps-plus (only 30 set trap ranks are actually neces., as you self buff to 35+ (cat's, one.w), putting 1 point into disable to recover your unused traps); rest into craft trap, heal or as you want).
* Note: 8 ranks into each of Hide and M/S are prereq. for Assassin class; otherwise, feel free to adjust your Hunter's skill-set to suit your own preferences/environs. _________________ Dead I am the one, Exterminating son; Slipping through the trees, strangling the breeze; I am the rat, feast upon the cat; Tender is the fur, dying as you purr; Dig through the ditches, Burn through the witches…Burn like an animal ~ Zombie, Dragula (1998)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 08/07/07 21:17
Quote: Warning: Players are advised that numerous animals (including dires), beasts and magical beasts were harmed, dominated, trapped and killed during extensive play-testing of this build
Did they suffer?
It's cool, I like the AB and damage setup, if you can hit and deal a lot of damage, then you have a good build, as easy as that.
Your story sounds like a documental, like if it's a true convincing text, nice. _________________
Quote: Posted 12/19/06 19:54 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Thax the Shadow Dragon sez: MONKS USE KAMAS. Just ask him.
Its strong offensively, there is no doubt. But in defense I'm a little worried. Dex 8 for a light armour wearer? You state 29 AC with full plate and so, but then you suffer -4 and -8 to AB rolls, leaving you a rather medicore fighter. And with +5 items, mage armour wont give you anything, since its +1 natural, armour, dodge and deflect, that you allready have on items, and they do not stack.
And when it comes to gear and buffs, you must always assume others have the same, thus making 50 AC with +5 gear something your own build will hit on 16 of 20 rolls, or with a +5 weapon, every single hit will go in.
So I'm wondering, what happens should you run into an archer or a dexer build? They'll have you down before you can even land a single of your massive hits on them.
All over interesting and powerful, but dreadfully weak defensively, and for any fighter, even with stealth, thats an important issue as well.
You could drop starting strenght to 16, taking 11 dex instead, and swapping one great str feat for dex, boosting base AC by 2 for the loss of 1 AB and damage.
Quote: Warning: Players are advised that numerous animals (including dires), beasts and magical beasts were harmed, dominated, trapped and killed during extensive play-testing of this build
Did they suffer?
It's cool, I like the AB and damage setup, if you can hit and deal a lot of damage, then you have a good build, as easy as that.
Your story sounds like a documental, like if it's a true convincing text, nice.
thanks, Thax.
Yeah, that animal emp. is really cool alright (on behalf of the Grimmer and I, we thank you!); and really appreciate the confirmation/info from you also, with thanks also out to Brom, too, whose never-ending love and info of the shapes have found their way into this build, too – thanks so much guys, and I do trust and hope that the players will enjoy our efforts on this one for a very long time to come!)
So glad you like it, and the story, too (heh heh, had a lot of fun putting that one together w. Grim, as you know: a ton of fun really: lots of wonderfully hauntingly chilling tales, indeed, and the stuff of course that good Hollywood pictures are made from! We did a lot of research for this one, and so glad to hear you liked it – thanks so much! (and as to whether the animals et al. suffered, well, let’s just say they didn’t have a clue as to what was coming Hardest part in the testing was keeping the panther at bay, to keep it from attacking the thing (or enemy summons) b/f I could dominate/enlist it to do me own bidding – in the process, essentially sending it out to fight and kill itself while killing for you (note: can heal ‘em if you want I also found, but way too much fun just to dominate another one That aside, I totally agree (and thanks so much for the compliment), re: hit + damage=good. When it comes to pvp in particular, it really is that simple
And good to see you, too, Cerolill – I very much appreciate your compliments, and your great questions. You’ve a few here, and that’s good (means you’re learning, and I like that, I really do, hence happy to deal w. each of your questions in turn (and especially since you quoted some of my words back at me, heh heh, well done – now, let’s get to it, shall we?
Quote: Posted 08/08/07 12:31 (GMT) -- Cerolill Its strong offensively, there is no doubt. But in defense I'm a little worried.
Thanks, and don’t be worried (really!): w. ranger cat’s and max. tumble (i.e., that’s +8, or 4 more than what a melee’r gets cross-classing btw, who also don’t get innate cat’s either); as such, covers off diff. b/w studded leather armor and plate as you can see (as in: AC 24 dual-wield (+3 shield); hence, on par with any other str-based melee’r really (and which is good for a str-based, dual-wield ranger build, yes?
As to plate: great question and clarity point: you’re right, do NOT ATTEMPT TO DUAL-Wield in plate (most true!), nor try to stealth-stalk and/or set traps in plate either, imo (nasty penalties there, too – reason why tumble/assassin’s here, imo, for skills – as in tumble, so lets you enjoy your leather); So, with that, why are plate stats there? B/C some are gonna pick up the big knife (like Thax our shadow dragon, imo, who not only sez that monks use kamas, but also sez that *real* dragon slayers (as in, PC dragons who are immune to crit imo) wield the big knife, dish the str.based/bane charged-damage, and wear shiny plate armor of course; me, I love my 6 apr kukris (7 apr hasted), works great for everything (incl. dragons, imo – but really, as he sez, if you only really wanna specialize in dragons, then go big knife + plate, it’s good thinking; otherwise, and for everything else (and on my version, imo) I like em kukris w. the double bang on yer ws/ews, and bane/FE damage, not to mention that wonderfully wide crit range, for which you wear leather when dual-wielding of course; that said, and regardless, nice to know for playability reasons (i.e., if playing build up 1-40) you’ve the plate option – particularly useful in the earlier levels b/f your ITWF kicks in, right?
Quote: And with +5 items, mage armour wont give you anything, since its +1 natural, armour, dodge and deflect, that you allready have on items, and they do not stack.
Not exactly While ac from diff. sources don’t stack as a gen. rule, this is NOT true for sources of dodge AC imo, which stack to a max. +20 (note: umd/mage armor – the +1 dodge stacks w. your umd/haste, your boot slot, etc., and yet one more reason folks why Grim, Thax and myself, among so many others here of course, enjoy our umd
Quote: And when it comes to gear and buffs, you must always assume others have the same, thus making 50 AC with +5 gear something your own build will hit on 16 of 20 rolls, or with a +5 weapon, every single hit will go in.
I almost fell off my chair reading this (hey, those are my words (aren’t I the one who said that to you -- LOVE IT! OK, that’s cool, though your numbers are off (and that’s cool too), which we’ll get to momentarily, and in so doing, heh, you’ve no idea how I appreciate this question, I really do, and thankd for it; why natural stats (as in, BAB/AB are so darn important to me, ready? Let’s go!
But before we begin our tutorial, it’s important to note that this is a power build, a playable one most true (all str-based rangers are, esp. when they come w. tumble and umd); that said, and still, it’s designed for offensive power and as such, some things suffer (but AC isn’t one of them, imo, as compared to other melee warriors that is, which we’ll see in a sec (is this to say that I think melee’r ac is anything special as compared to say an arcanist? Of course not, but it is what it is – then again, apart from spells, arcanists don’t exactly dish any damage apart from their damage shields, right? (Reason also why you want HPs and serious damage output when up against anything like that, imo – otherwise, if you don't, you’re pretty much toast; that said, what suffers here in exchange for AB and damage are his skills, having to pick for instance b/w stealth and deadly traps, but that’s the price, and way worth it imo since s/he has what s/he needs anyway, incl. full disc., tumble, and umd, among other things); second, this build is focused (as all good supernatural hunters in past I imagine were, yes?)
That said, and unless otherwise stated, my response is directed at the second variant (i.e., Natural Born Killer), seeing as your comments/questions are directed at fighting other PCs/classes as opposed to going after druid-shifter/shape-shifters (to which the first variant is directed, both pvm and pvp, and hence the 3 extra FEs (i.e., a nice natural ab to begin with, now bring on that bane power vs. all major forms-plus (you got it covered), along w. Animal Empathy to dominate/daze ‘em (totally fun, it is, it really, really is, and darn neat also to be able to steal your enemies’ summons); by contrast, Natural Born Killer (you’re right) is focused instead on playable races (hence, only 7 FEs, as there are only 7 pc races of course to cover) that said, both are highly playable PvM obviously, but in light of your great question, we’re focusing here on pvp obviously; and with that, let the tutorial begin.
AC and AB – as the commercial sez, all-natural is good for you
Typical Warrior, in +5 environs: Warrior AC: 10 base, +1 dex, +4 tumble, +8 plate: 23 (26 shield) / +5 environs (+20 gear): 43 (51 w. +5 tower shield, but cut back seriously on damage imo, and less AC anyway than what Hunter has in leather, dual-wielding, no shield, in that same +5 environs (see below)
Warrior AB: 45, +6 STR, +5 weapon: 56/51/46/41 (note, not bad, but only 4 more than what Hunter has on his own – i.e., without any equipment/umd, Hunter has an AB 52 (as noted); but you’re right, what your foe can get, you of course get, too: so let’s do that, shall we? Let’s gear Hunter up (and see why when you start out strong to begin with, as here, you’re only that much better w. magic, not dependent on it, but rather augmented by it, hence making you only that much more better as compared to those that otherwise needed it, yes?
(and here’s why):
Now that we’ve seen the “good” warrior, let’s compare that to the Hunter: Mundane Studded Leather: 22, +2 Cat's, or 24 AC (27 w. shield); assuming +5 items, dex, haste, umd/mage armor (+1 dodge portion, as noted above): 52 AC (60 shield)
NOTE: 52 AC, in leather, dual-wielding, and NO SHIELD (better than a WM, in plate and shield, right? AND dishing out way more damage as a result – just plain wonderful really; but if you want more, can always equip a shield you know (that’s 60 AC, and add another +5 if took expertise, or 65 AC … that’s hardly weak; quite the contrary in fact; for a str-based melee build, that’s just plain good.
Accordingly, and as you can see, I definitely do not recommend trading in any AB or Damage for AC, not at all (while players are always free to tweak for their own purposes, and so should you of course, but I am never one and will never recommend trading in power for a mere AC point which is neither necessary, nor in my opinion advisable == you are a melee’r, you don’t need more AC, and you’re not about prolonging the kill, but getting in and killing quickly; and for that, you want and enjoy your offensive power: take expertise if you want, that’s totally cool (w. an option there for it in fact), but there’s no such thing as too much AB (or damage) on a melee’r – and you are a melee build, hence enjoy your offensive power; when it comes to melee’rs (especially in pvp), remember that the best defense is a strong offense always.
Offense (AB & Damage) That debate aside, Hunter doesn’t survive as a result of AC (no melee’r does, imo) but, rather, b/c of his/her precision – i.e., AB and lethal damage (the dead don’t strike back after all (well, as the above tale says, they won’t if you remember that, once you kill them, you must also burn them sometime before the next sundown so they never again get back up
Hunter’s AB AB 48, +4 self-buffs: 52 (NO equipment or UMD/weaponry) Assuming +5 keen kukris, Str and haste: AB 58/58/53/53/48/43/60 BioCap (UMD/truestrike, for e.g.): 74 AB (-2 dual)
Attack Roll (once again): d20 + (AB 60 (-2 dual) / BioCap 74 (-2 dual) vs. Opponent’s AC
And having established that your typical melee’r has a 50-ish AC (dexer’s are 60-ish; monk hits 70 imo), as you can see, and not even accounting for any stealth adjustments or the like, just straight-up fighting, one-on-one: he hits. Period.
As against druid-monk-dragons (who can w. impr.expert. get their AC to 80s, imo (but costs em their ab, imo): at Hunter's AB 74 (w. str, umd/truestrike), well, you get the point ... (9 sec. isn’t long, the equivalent of 1-1/2 rounds,this is true, but when you dishing over 400 damage in a round w. a simple pair of +5 kukris (i.e., not counting any additional weaponry or umd enhancements, nor factoring in any crits (which occurs on a roll 12+, meaning, 60% of the time), well, you get the point …
Quote: So I'm wondering, what happens should you run into an archer or a dexer build?
They’re dead, no? You have ultravision (darkness doesn’t work against you, and this is ½ the recipe needed for you yourself to cast umd/darkness); you have purge invisibility (strips invisibility from all in the area of effect, including the removal of concealment bonus from impr.invisib., imo). You have companions and summons, as well as the option for stealth-stalking yourself; regardless, you have high STR/Discipline, and also over 500 HPs; but best of all, you have high AB and deal lethal damage, with AC 60 (65 w. expert.) to get over to your foe; and when you get there, you IKD them, they go down, and then they’re dead. Simple.
Like Thax sez, and with which I wholeheartedly agree:
Quote: …if you can hit and deal a lot of damage, then you have a good build, as easy as that.
This has been fun, it really was, and trust that it was also helpful
Lock and Load! ~ Tyr _________________ Dead I am the one, Exterminating son; Slipping through the trees, strangling the breeze; I am the rat, feast upon the cat; Tender is the fur, dying as you purr; Dig through the ditches, Burn through the witches…Burn like an animal ~ Zombie, Dragula (1998)
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 08/09/07 05:25
Cool builds, Tyr, and I hope I got those quotes straightened out for you.
One minor quibble with your analysis re the Natural Born Killer vs the Warrior: you're assuming said warrior will only have +4 AC from Tumble, but don't you think it's highly more likely said warrior would actually have Bard or Rogue (or possibly Monk, SD, or Assassin) levels to top out Tumble as well - especially in a PvP environment?
*edit* And the Warrior would very likely have Expertise in his bag of tricks as well. As you noted though, he probably can't compete on a damage-dealing level though.
*edit 2* One more thing as well: your NBK's 52 AC is assuming Haste, yet you're not giving the Warrior Haste as well. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Edited By Cinnabar Din on 08/09/07 05:42
Agreed, Cin. Also, with only 1 level of Assassin(or 2 in the variant), and that coming near the end, why Assassin at all? Why the forced alignment restriction for one level of UMD? I can see that you are trying to avoid an xp panalty in the 2nd, but the first doesn't really suffer from that complex given its current make-up.
This is related to the next issue: perhaps it's listed somewhere in your preamble or epilogue, but I couldn't find whether this is a PvP or PvM build, and if it's playable from 1-40, and if for low or mid or high magic. I'm assuming it's PvM starting somewhere in the 20s? and for at least Mid Magic given the assumptions about keen kukris and Haste and so forth.
Since the first build doesn't acquire its lone Assassin level unto the late 30's, I assume he is playable even though until that point he's just a melee-type with low AC and average hit points. Same for the second, who must wait for 22 seasons before seeing the light of Tumble and UMD. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Edited By grizzled_dwarflord on 08/09/07 11:47
More skill points going 1 rogue vs 1 Assassin.
LOL.. it IS very poor defensivly.
54-55 Discipline on a STR tank in unacceptible.
Any Dexxer with full BAB will eat you alive... I can see it: Paladin COT Rogue, IKD, 3 smites. Game over...
Or a DEX AA with spammed called shot leg + Rapid Shot... can you say ICE cube...
I love STR Rangers, but this needs a little work
Try Elf with a little lower base STR, and ESF Discipline if you want to PvP.
Edited By SKIPPNUTTZ on 08/09/07 14:11
Disregard my last: I found where you have it: at the top of the story rather than at the top of each build. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Edited By grizzled_dwarflord on 08/09/07 14:19
Hey, Cinn: thanks for fixing up the thread, appreciate it, and your kind compliment, too. As to your quibble, no quibble at all – fact is, most melee’rs simply do not take UMD (you’d be surprised, but it’s true that they don’t; they also don’t train up their detection either, but we’ll come back to that …
This is a good discussion, thanks! And alright then, for the sake of carrying on our discussion (forgetting the real averages), then let’s give said Warrior UMD and assume s/he took a tumble class (like we here do
The result would be as follows:
Warrior AC: 10 base, +1 dex, +4 tumble, +8 plate: 23 (26 shield) / +5 environs (+20 gear): 43 (51 w. +5 tower shield), if we give them a UMD and add a tumble class (so, +4 tumble, +4 haste, +1 umd/mage armor: 52 AC (60 shield, add +5 expert. and guess what,
As I said at the outset of the Supernatural Hunter in the first place, re: this build:
• Nice Defense. While there’s no such thing as too much AC, the Supernatural Hunter’s AC is just as good as (if not better than) a plate-wearing WM
To Skippnuttz: Melee’r AC isn’t the greatest, I agree; however, it is what it is, and as we’ve established, one more time, the Hunter has EXACT SAME or BETTER THAN any str.based/plate-wielding melee build. Also, once again, this build doesn’t survive via AC, it survives through damage.
As to rogue, yeah, could do that Grizz (and bang on why assassin in second one (and gets uncanny also, not the end-all/be-all on a str-based ranger build, but can come in handy on a leather wearer w dex-AC, don’t ya think?) That said, apart from theme, could easily trade in that 1 assassin for a rogue if you want, at level 40, so no xp burden; but there’s no forced alignment change whatsoever here, Grizz: you start CE and end CE – there’s no alignment change; assassins are evil, but rangers and fighters aren't restricted from any alignment and can be anything they want (apart of course from the assassin req’t, which is any evil). But if on the first one you prefer rogue over assassin (as skippnuttz says, “More skill points going 1 rogue vs 1 Assassin.” Sad, but true), then don’t have to be CE if don’t want to be: by all means, go CN if you like (we’ll come back to that
Other questions:
Quote: SKIPPNUTTZ ….54-55 Discipline on a STR tank in unacceptible. Or a DEX AA with spammed called shot leg + Rapid Shot... can you say ICE cube... Any Dexxer with full BAB will eat you alive...
Apart from that, and something’s that over looked about the ranger, is that they are innate casters. Many know about the stealth boost for e.g. (giving a str-based character pretty good stealth actually), but doesn’t anyone here recall that they’ve also got things, in addition to a very useful animal companion (stats above), summons, protections spells/freedom, ultravision (immune from and ½ recipe for casting darkness), not to mention grease and entangle.
Sure, as compared to a druid or cleric, ranger spells aren’t anything to write home about, but still, there are some useful ones, like entangle for instance (slows enemies to 50%), and even better is grease – stacks with itself to slow enemies *literally* to a bare crawl (down to minimum 10% movement rate in fact) – like I said, useful
Quote: I can see it: Paladin COT Rogue, IKD, 3 smites. Game over...
Pal-Cot-Rogues are cool; Finn, Big Meph and I were actually the first three to start the threads on that combo about two years ago, and nice to see that they and their offspring (variants thereof) have since come to life, such that the combo is still around and doing well – cool! Problem with ‘em though, unless have 25+ paladin in em, they’re dispellable (incl. the cha buffs/spells they rely on for things like the divines, imo); also, lousy skill set, and no detection skills (sneak right past ‘em; then again, this is true for most melee builds – most players don’t, and it’s a fact, they just don’t train their detection); while that holy sword is sexy, heh, I agree, it’s only once per day and doesn’t last very long; but even assuming enough levels of paladin taken to make the GRT Smites of which you speak worthwhile, only 3 of em a day and once they’re all gone…. Then, and while there are many ways to deal w. a paladin, the purpose of this build is not to assassinate paladins; If that’s your cup-of-tea, then simply exchange your 1 level of assassin for 1 rogue, adjust accordingly, and go CN (no brainer, folks: the easiest way to deal with a paladin-smiter is to deny said paladin their smite by going neutral (heh, poor pally --- all that wasted charisma, so no ab or damage as a result as against you … guess your animal companion will be enjoying paladin toast for breakfast
Quote: I love STR Rangers,
I do, too
Actually, str-based rangers are great, and players are always free to adjust as they want of course (and should always feel free to do so; by all means, feel free to make it an elf if you want too, although it would cost a feat and a bunch of skill points, you’d get 2 free dex but lose 2 con stats (not to mention xp burdens - there's no wood elf in NWN, but aren’t they great in NWN2?
What I like about this build, IMO is that it’s a ranger, enjoying WM-like precision (high AB and lethal damage output); proof-positive that rangers are not tree huggers, but solid, strong, and capable warriors. And when it comes to PvP (or soloing PvM also), in the case of a melee build, I prefer offense over defence, and hence enjoy my high AB and lethal damage output: You hit, you deal high damage, it’s simple. _________________ Dead I am the one, Exterminating son; Slipping through the trees, strangling the breeze; I am the rat, feast upon the cat; Tender is the fur, dying as you purr; Dig through the ditches, Burn through the witches…Burn like an animal ~ Zombie, Dragula (1998)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 08/09/07 22:37
Please, don't take offense, just felt compelled to point out a few minor details.
Quote: Posted 08/09/07 22:23 (GMT) -- TyrTemplar
As to rogue, yeah, could do that Grizz (and bang on why assassin in second one (and gets uncanny also, not the end-all/be-all on a str-based ranger build, but can come in handy on a leather wearer w dex-AC, don’t ya think?)
Well, one can't assume you can have it both ways. Leather or Full Plate? In the initial PvP assault, and mid-combat, are you going to go Leather or Full Plate? PvM might offer such luxuries in switching, but even that is tenuous at best, as some worlds won't allow for changing out of leather into Full Plate in the heat of combat. Nor can you know the nature of your opponent unless he sends you a resume in advance (maybe they do that in some places).
Quote: but there’s no forced alignment change whatsoever here, Grizz: you start CE and end CE – there’s no alignment change;
I never said change. I said a forced alignment restriction. Having evil as an alignment makes you a bit more vulnerable in a PvP contest, and PvP is how this lad is billed. It seems like a foolish achilles heel when Bard or Rogue was easily available.
Quote: Pal-Cot-Rogues are cool; Finn, Big Meph and I were actually the first three to start the threads on that combo about two years ago.
You might want to check on that again, Tyr. We've been building Pally/CoT/Rogues here in the guild a wee bit before that. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Heya, and no offense taken; note: the stats for Hunter are in leather (once again,
Mundane Studded Leather: 22, +2 Cat's, or 24 AC (27 w. shield); assuming +5 items, dex, haste, umd/mage armor (+1 dodge portion, as noted above): 52 AC (60 shield) (add +5 it took expertise, or AC 65)
As to the alignment issue, seems I mis-read you then (sorry bout that, just wanted to make clear there's no alignment change, and of course, if go rogue, then the field's wide open as you say (and good idea obviously if worried about smiters); nuff said. except as to the start of the rogue/pally/cot thread (on which I'll otherwise say no more, as already enough) -- change that to among the first then
expanded me search, and yep, there be 7 or 8 of us (with enough pally for holy sword), 5 of which (incl. my own, Meph's, Finn's, Ithacan's and Caithdein's all came out around the same time period it seems (within weeks or so of each other); but regardless, two of you stand at the forefront of the combo, indeed: as in, you and Mith who in turn deserve credit (and you are credited accordingly: as it relates to that combo, then, nice to meet a "parent"
Hunt On! ~ Tyr
Edit: Aye, and a round of the best dwarven ale all around! _________________ Dead I am the one, Exterminating son; Slipping through the trees, strangling the breeze; I am the rat, feast upon the cat; Tender is the fur, dying as you purr; Dig through the ditches, Burn through the witches…Burn like an animal ~ Zombie, Dragula (1998)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 08/10/07 02:19
Quote: To Skippnuttz: Melee’r AC isn’t the greatest, I agree; however, it is what it is, and as we’ve established, one more time, the Hunter has EXACT SAME or BETTER THAN any str.based/plate-wielding melee build. Also, once again, this build doesn’t survive via AC, it survives through damage.
How can you damage when you are laying on your back? lol
Your stealth is rather junkie, yes, even with Camo, OWL, and Mass Camo.
The Pally COT Rogue has plenty of skills. COT and rogue get Spot.. and I use em.
I've played Bastions of War for years where sneaking is the name of the game for most builds. Without disipline and detect your build is trash in PvP. but... You have no concealment, no ac, junk stealth, junk disipline, and no speed. You are fodder in too many areas. But yes you do have good damage. Try this:
30 Ranger 9 Monk 1 Rogue or Druid for SC and +2 AB outdoors... with a TBS... and stay neutral Assassin isn't worth it, sure you get uncanny with 2 lvls BUT so doesnt SD.
Meh... I gtg.
Having established the alternate discipline path, (w. rogue definitely on BoW, where there are REAL smiters (meh, not pally-rogue-cot's, but the real thing, like one of mine or Gim's btw AB 40 minimum, now bring on the rest, including cha and GS X --- those be the one's ya gotta worry about when you're evil (then, what evil build doesn't, so true, so true: so, yeah, if on your world, go rogue/CN and thus avoid the issue altogether, this is true, and well said)
otherwise, dexers aren't really an issue (they deal so little damage, and themselves have no discipline; as noted, go SF/ESF disc. route on Hunter (and reason why it's there, and useful vs. PC dragons, too) as it's not him on his back, but his foes (esp. dem dexers), keeping in mind also his foes move at the min. 10% thanks to grease, have their invis (incl. any impr.invis. cover they were hoping to rely on) stripped;
Of course, if surrounded by pesky sneakers a lot then, yeah, by all means, feel free to train up detection too -(and that's a good idea, Skipp); folks, as I've always said, since players are the one's who know their own worlds best, they are free to (and should) adjust for their world (heh heh, and on the world of which you speak, anything under 25 caster is completely dispelled, so the team w. the sweetest singing bard and/or mage who fires off the first round of dispels as a general rule wins. yes?
That said, and having already established frankly and for the last time though a) his AC is as good or better than any other melee build, b. his Natural AB being on par with a WM and c. his Natural damage, ITWF + awesome crit. range, being str-based w. double bang on not only ws/ews, but also FE and Bane is better, and in fact, is without question lethal (psst. final word on the subject: pally-cot-rogues have equal or less than 400 HPs in general, which he does in but a couple hits, once you factor in those crits -- sorry, but unless something's got high EDR, well ... that's right, most dexers etc. don't (and even if did, well, again, natural UNDISPELLABLE STATS does Hunter have, with his bane+ITWF etc. cuts through EDR, and no immunity might I add is there to be found for anyone anywhere vs. FE/bane either
Totally 'nuff said on that, really; truly, this ain't the place to talk about how to take down different combos, and their weaknesses. But, really, if worried about a pally, all's I say is, don't: a. go rogue, and no problem (this is true); but regardless, in a few rounds at most, pally cha-turns run out, such that pally become pumpkins ... but to say anymore about it (or the weaknesses of anything else) would be so off-topic at this point, in order to come back on topic, would love to see how a dexer or anything else that's dispellable, sneak and/or smite reliant, with zero ab and/or damage in a low magic world especially (or in a mid-magic once dispelled either) is gonna dare come up against a druid or shifter ...
a. druid/druid-shifters dispel (hence, the need for natural, undispellable stats -- Hunter's AB 48, +4 self-buffs: 52 AB, and not dispellable; AB 60 w. str and a mere +5 weapon); you need at least a +3 weapon to breach elementals DR imo, and not so easy to come by on a no magic/low magic world (in which case, Hunter has Blade Thirst, hence, he comes w. a +3 weapon (cast on both kukris, and w. nothing more, you're ready to go); on top of that, druids got a really nice animal companion and lots of animal summons (so, too, does Hunter, who can steal his foes w. SF/ESF animal empathy; otherwise, go (as noted) Discipline); many shapes as you no doubt know are also sneak immune, and w/ druid-shifters being neutral by prereq., means they're completely smite immune, too (so, too is Hunter readily and easily made smite immune if go rogue, on which we're agreed as necessary, and already and for the last time said); but his damage is neither from smite, nor is it derived from sneak (the 2d6 he gets (1d6 x's 2 kukris) be just a nice little bonus, but that's all it is --- rather, and unlike others (and especially dexers), his damage is STR based, w. WS/EWS, coupled with high FE and Bane charged damage vs. all ... as such, his damage is neither restricted, nor is is avoided, since none of the shapes are immune to any of this (nor are pc races, either, imo), and especially when you're critting on a 12(which occurs, once again, 60% of the time), hence, doubling it all -- enemies simply don't live long enough to hit back. Yes, some (like dragons and undeads) are crit immune, others (like dragon, elementals and gargoyle) have DR, but w. ITWF and the double-bang you get on all that you got (especially FE and Bane, just don't get any better than that), truth be told: he slices through that EDR rather quickly too (and works great I might add, vis-a-vis epic warding
Nuff said ... as I'm not going to go through every shape (or potential class combo, as this isn't the place for it either, having already said more than enough): final note, and on which you'll get no argument from me, is to go SF/ESF disc. if playing pvp in general, or if only really interested in going after PC dragons anyway, as I have already said, and for the umpteenth time said, both in the build, and throughout the discussion); as to those shapes and their stats, it's in the wiki, a link to which I'm happy to provide as follows:
Druids and their shapes: http://www.nwnwiki.org/Druid Shifters and their shapes: http://www.nwnwiki.org/Shifter _________________ Dead I am the one, Exterminating son; Slipping through the trees, strangling the breeze; I am the rat, feast upon the cat; Tender is the fur, dying as you purr; Dig through the ditches, Burn through the witches…Burn like an animal ~ Zombie, Dragula (1998)
) 
Did they suffer?
thanks, Thax. 
Hardest part in the testing was keeping the panther at bay, to keep it from attacking the thing (or enemy summons) b/f I could dominate/enlist it to do me own bidding – in the process, essentially sending it out to fight and kill itself while killing for you (note: can heal ‘em if you want I also found, but way too much fun just to dominate another one 
