Hitpoints: 230 max, 175.5 average Skillpoints: 298 (5 ranks of tumble and one rank of disable trap are cross-classed) Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 17/18/29 Saving Throw bonuses: +2 vs mind spells with reroll, +9 vs spells, +2 Reflex vs traps BAB: 22/17/12 AB: 32/27/22 (Empowered Cat's Grace gives up to +3 to AB) AC (naked/mundane armor and shield): 28 (31 with tower or mithral shield) +20 to AC from epic mage armor (long lasting, can't be dispelled) +10 to AC from improved expertise (lasts as long as you want, can't be dispelled) Other non-polymorphing buffs give a further possible +12 to AC
LEVELING GUIDE 1 Wizard(1): Dodge (No school of specialization) 2 Wizard(2): 3 Wizard(3): Weapon Finesse 4 Wizard(4): Dex+1 (21) 5 Wizard(5): Extend Spell 6 Wizard(6): Mobility 7 Wizard(7): 8 Wizard(8): Dex+1 (22) 9 Wizard(9): Expertise 10 Wizard(10): Empower Spell 11 Wizard(11): 12 Ranger(1): FE: Construct, Improved Expertise, Dex +1 (23) 13 SD(1): 14 SD(2): 15 SD(3): Blind Fight 16 SD(4): Dex+1 (24) 17 SD(5): 18 SD(6): Combat Casting 19 SD(7): 20 SD(8): Int+1 (17) 21 Wizard(12): Great Dex I (25), 22 Wizard (13): 23 Wizard (14): 24 Wizard (15): Great Int I (18), Great Dex II, Dex +1 (27) 25 Wizard(16): 26 SD(9): 27 SD(10): Epic Dodge 28 Wizard(17): Dex+1 (28) 29 Wizard(18): 30 Wizard(19): Great Dex III (29) 31 Wizard(20): Improved Combat Casting 32 SD(11): Dex+1 (30) 33 SD(12): Self Concealment I 34 SD(13): Self Concealment II 35 SD(14): 36 SD(15): Self Concealment III, Int +1 (19) 37 Wizard(21): 38 Wizard(22): 39 Wizard(23): Epic Mage Armor, Self Concealment IV 40 SD(16): Self Concealment V, Int +1 (20)
Concept:
The original concept of hidden magic elf was to have an arcane caster that could mord other casters out of Greater Sanctuary and damage shields while not needing to rebuff if a mordekainen's disjunction was returned.
Later the focus developed into a true meatshield type build. Forcing 20's on melee was essential to delay melee combatants, and for the most part the AC had to stay as much long lasting and nondispellable as possible. The real trick was the concealment. Any build that takes Epic Dodge has at least 10 levels that are not from a caster. This means that a level 40 wizard can cast a mord onto the playing field and strip all magical buffs from anyone with epic dodge.
But the level 40 wizard also has some fears. Modules can have enemies exceeding 50 levels. Once a mord hits that enemy only the breachable buffs are stripped while the other way around all the magical buffs of the caster are stripped. Hidden magic elf can run from combat when he is stripped taking minimal damage from enemy archers and meleers along the way while the level 40 wizard will be easily overwhelmed from the immence AC decrease and lacking concealment.
Hidden Magic Elf can also be used like a secondary bard. Mind blank and mass haste can significantly help a party of non-casters, and this build will be able to cast these spells straight of the bat when stripped instead of taking the normal caster time to recast defenses.
Pros: High AC, able to avoid directed spells with HIPs vs casters stripped of trueseeing. Can cast mords and does well at defense even when stripped. Overall Excellent Reflex and Moderate Will saves vs mind spells. Able to cast ninth level spells. Retains Dex when caught flatfooted. 50% Concealment in all circumstances. Decent buffed AC in the preepic levels starting level 3.
Cons: Low HP can easily be slaughtered with a decent DC implosion. Has to maintain a high AC to show his advantage. Low DC for spell saves. Not designed for a one on one mage duel. Often relies on melee combat if not with a party or with summons.
Analysis: This elf is versatile in many environments especially low magic ones or ones with constant spell failure. He is able to use sword and board or dual wield (very advantageous at level 12 and onward preepic). He is terrible at environments that constantly damage a player in an unavoidable way.
The character can craft an ironwood small shield and a mithral shield (DC 28). The mithral shield gives freedom allowing freedom if caught in Evards.
I usually play this character with a small shield to gain shield AC and have minimal arcane spell failure. In areas where he can actually take time to prebuff and not worry about being stripped, he does remarkably well with a tower shield if needed. The main problem with the tower shield is the weight, having a strength of 8; the hidden elf is unable to lug massive amounts of gear.
More pros: Shadow Evade works well against Evard's and Bigby's allowing you to be able to keep your buffs for a time, while only taking a small amount of damage.
The craft trap skill allows you to craft any trap (deadly gas trap crafted on a roll of 17). The set trap skill can set any trap you create and the disable trap skill allows you to identify a trap as well as recover the traps you set.
Summon shadow is powerful at low levels when you can summon a shadow fiend. In my opinion the shadow fiend is often a better companion than a shadow lord, as the shadow fiend will only make touch attacks and when successful will cause a strength drain.
Pickpocket is high enough to allow automatic pickpocket success even with a small shield. The main problem is your opponents will most likely spot you. But in the middle of a battle, you can pickpocket your foe in improved expertise and have the protection to evade his blows.
Note for Halfling aspirers: A very similar build that does better against Evard's would be Halfling (Wizard 23/PM 1/SD 16). The main reason I dislike the halfling variant, despite the small stature, better skills, and better saves is that the elf variety tends to do better at low levels, the freedom from a mithral shield does more than simply block evard's and the smaller damage from the halfing is easily noticed. Also Hidden Magic Elf is built around a trap setting and the elf detecting with the search skill affinity easily complements this.
Edited: Added classes to article title for pulse cap engine use.
Edited By Bromium on 08/23/07 14:50
This is a very interesting build. While the first reaction is to say "WHAT!! A mage with sc5 and only 20 int!! &*(@#(" THe reality is that it is well thought out.
I struggle to understand how 16 sd (getting sc5) is more beneficial than a wiz 29 but that is my own lack of ability with a caster wizard. _________________
Absolutely exhausted on my end, and maybe shouldn't comment as such (will do so proper later, promise but seems to me this is a rather neat support character re: from the back lines (definitely easily killable, don't get me wrong, as really, you so totally are: dispellable and no nat. ab? on the other hand, as he (or she) says, frankly, mords and mass haste -- I am a true meeleer -- by all means, buff me up (esp. if dev. crit is enabled, while you rebuff (incl. us), let the bards sing, and while you are morded (yes, dispellable and zero damage pvm or pvp on your end, imo) On the other hand, as he (or she) says, fact is, all are mord's pvp --- you rehaste amd give a mellee'r what he/she needs while YOU mords ... me melee'rs (or anyone's, not saying this coz I like melee best or anything, but fact is, and it is a fact, you got a mage on your end, along with a bard, so that ... well, you get the point, right?
Like I said, seriously, interstineg build, yes, you are totally (as you know and def. wouldn't try melee imo; you're a buffer, w. a lot of buff/ense, enjoy and tick off the other casters, you got HiPs while letting the melee do their job, yes -- neat;) On the other hand, well, anything that buffs, and mords, is oool by me, but let's see if we can't get you some more damage and/or ac or something ... Will respond proper tomorrow, but interesting enough, that I felt the need to say neat build, amd upon which I'll sleep and give you a proper response tomorrow. BTW, welcome to the guild, and nice job posing.
-- cheers, Tyr _________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 08/24/07 07:44
Quote: Posted 08/24/07 07:00 (GMT) -- avado
This is a very interesting build. While the first reaction is to say "WHAT!! A mage with sc5 and only 20 int!! &*(@#(" THe reality is that it is well thought out.
I struggle to understand how 16 sd (getting sc5) is more beneficial than a wiz 29 but that is my own lack of ability with a caster wizard.
Some of what SCV does that improved invisibility doesn't come close to is that it actually allows you to cast a mord right next to yourself if needed. Casting a mord on an area first performs a dispel on the two best buffs of each character in the area and then breaches six buffs from all characters in the area as well as an SR decrease of 10. Thus with one mord you can make many a mage stripped of GS, spell mantle, and damage shields while still staying strong enough to do it again.
What Hidden Magic Elf can do is blend right in with the front line without worry of damage or most AoE spells. He can be as much a front line support as a back line buffer.
I have made a couple variations of the sneak morder. I would have to say that self concealment isn't really worth it. You have tons of slots for extra Imp Invis so I wouldnt waste feats on concealment. I would also take the 1 Ranger lvl epic so you can take Improved Combat Casting for free. Personally I just use Defensive Casting mode, but it is up to you whether you want to save more feats or not. FE: Construct seems like a waste. If you really wanted to jazz up the build you could drop 6 SD levels, 3 Wiz lvls and take 10 Ranger lvls for better BAB, ITWF, more HPs, and invest in some more stealth... (via ranger spells?) and or feats. I would suggest trying to work in 10 base STR so you can carry more traps/heal kits/ etc...
As soon as you start to rely on dispellable buffs you start losing the efficiency of being able to cast spells in the front lines. Haste can be replenished by a mass haste which helps allies as well, so it is not that big of a time waste. Neither is protection from spells and mind blank. Mords distroy the defenses of multiple mages often leaving them vulnerable to a beating by others/summons. Spell mantle is the only one that helps only you that you want to get up fast.
Rigid efficiency is very meaningful when acting as a subordinate buffer.
k, at lv 29 wiz (which is movin 6 sd to wiz) would make this undispellable, no? SO, then your side is?? I am seriously asking cuz I am NOT a master wizard.
The general saying is that 25 caster levels = undispellable, but I'm no master wizzie either so I can't comfirm this 100%.
A dispel check is used as a DC to see how well the caster dispels magic effects from the target.
Quote: Calculation for the dispel check is as followed:
1d20 +1 per caster level (Lesser dispel maximum of +5, Dispel magic maximun of +10,Greater dispelling maximum of +15, and Mordenkainen's disjunction no cap) against a DC of 11 + the spell effect's caster level.
At least, so says the Wiki.
Quote: Posted 08/25/07 09:44 (GMT) -- Cerolill
The general saying is that 25 caster levels = undispellable, but I'm no master wizzie either so I can't comfirm this 100%.
Does not apply to breaches and/or Mord's (Mord's includes an uncapped Dispel plus breach effect). _________________ " -- They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more."
- Pozzo in Waiting for Godot by Samuel Beckett
Nor does it apply to invisibility purge.
The thing about 'being undispellable' is people are referring to non-mages (Wizzies and Sorcies) Dispels, since Clerics, Druids, Bards, etc. can't use one of the Dispel line of spells to strip any buffs. Of course, as noted, there are spells that can still work and a UMDer can use scrolls od Breach/Mord's to do the dirty work too. Still, it's nice to know that you don't have to worry about any of the Dispels. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
2 words for you:
Extended Displacement
and stop thinking of yourself as a "caster" casting on the front lines. You are merely a weak arcane support build with trap skills and cheap dispel tactics.
Sorry!
SKIPPNUTTZ,
First of all it is unclear why you think this build has anything to do with a "sneak morder." Perhaps you got this from HIPS.
Second, your criticism seems to assume that this build is for PvP or at least that it is facing level 40 builds which have no extra immunities or protections.
1). This build is not a "sneak morder." It can be used as a morder, but it is aimed mostly at survival and support.
2). This build is not for PvP and definitely not for soloing a level 40 mage. It does however serve a better supportive role than a level 40 mage. To illustrate this consider the following combat:
Hidden Magic Elf and Lvl 40 meleer A vs Lvl 40 mage and Lvl 40 meleer B- Hidden Magic Elf and the mage start off with roughly the same buffs. It would take Hidden Magic Elf the same number of rounds to strip the breachable buffs from the mage as it would take the mage to do likewise. Meleer A will be able to knockdown the mage before meleer B can do the same to Hidden Magic Elf. Because of the mage's low HP with respect to the meleers, meleer A can just spam knockdowns and kill the mage before meleer B kills Hidden Magic Elf or meleer A. It then becomes a two to one with no mage. If there were more meleers on both sides then the Hidden Magic Elf would be increasingly more valuable as opposed to the level 40 mage.
If the mage had epic warding all Hidden Magic Elf needs to do after stripping the mage is immobolize meleer B and perhaps the mage with a bigby. The mage will not be able to cast spells during the spam knockdown.
Further if the mage was replaced with a module creature the same tactics would work. Mords and timestop are not stopped by any immunities.
Perhaps you assume that Hidden Magic Elf ought do well in one on one combat versus a lvl 40 mage. This assumption is probably made because there are not any really powerful summons for a lvl 40 mage to fight alongside with. If you were to play this build in the low levels you will find that because of its higher AC from the get-go it will be able to do more with a summon at his side than an equivalent level mage. This is because the high AC actually allows Hidden Magic Elf to get closer to his summon during the battle without considerable risk.
It is the act of getting closer which enables the "front line fighting" or more specifically being close to those he is buffing and thus being able to personally benefit from mass buff spells.
Though Hidden Magic Elf is quite capable of reconnaissance that does not mean that he is subscribing to the "sneak mord" tactic. And yes, of course he will eventually die in the front lines. Any creature in the front lines will eventually die, however hidden magic elf is built to be actively able to cast spells longer than a lvl 40 mage and thus be more effective, especially when he does not have to worry about the range of his mords. HIPS is there only for extended survivability.
Finally to answer your point on displacement: Displacement happens to be on the breach list. Even a rogue can strip it with all damage shields and GS with merely one UMDed mord.
Quote: Posted 08/26/07 08:47 (GMT) -- WhiZard
SKIPPNUTTZ,
First of all it is unclear why you think this build has anything to do with a "sneak morder." Perhaps you got this from HIPS.
Second, your criticism seems to assume that this build is for PvP or at least that it is facing level 40 builds which have no extra immunities or protections.
1). This build is not a "sneak morder." It can be used as a morder, but it is aimed mostly at survival and support.
2). This build is not for PvP and definitely not for soloing a level 40 mage. It does however serve a better supportive role than a level 40 mage. To illustrate this consider the following combat:
I think I got the same impression. If this isnt for pvp then i totally dont get it! You have wasted 5 feats at least to get feats that are riculously easy to replicate with a wizard.
Its alittle like making a 20 fighter/20 cleric, taking the first 20 lvls as a fighter to say that you wont have a dispellable full bab, in the off chance that you loose it anyway! I have really only enjoyed playin clerics long term and I can say with certainty that I have lost this buff only a handfull of times and it was last night! To loose out on the 20 lvls JUST to make sure I get 30bab.. is such a waste.
Then again, like I said above, maybe I just dont get the idea here. I am a terrible wizard THe only wiz I ever made had a wail dc of 49 at lv 27 so what do I know. _________________
THe only wiz I ever made had a wail dc of 49 at lv 27 so what do I know.
Odd the highest lvl 40 caster dc for wail is 46. (18 int + Great Int X + RDD int + 10 int from levels + 12 magical = 52 int). Thus the save dc is 10 + int mod (21) + spell level (9) + spell foci (6) = 46.
The highest dc for level 27 should be 40. (18 int + Great Int IV + 6 int from levels + 12 magical = 40 int). The save dc is 10 + int mod (15) + spell level (9) + spell foci (6) = 40.
A cleric though could get implosion DC as high as 43 at level 27.
k, this is getin off topic. I also dont make things up! Come on out to our world and see me wail at 47dc or was it 49.. at lv 27/28. dude, i know nothing special about wizards. I also play PRC. My server implemented it a few years ago (2.2 prc version) and I absolutely love it.
Since the build ISNT for pvp, then in my mind, taking sc5 with a wiz is a true waste. II replaces it in a hurry and in my mind there are so many more important things to do with 6 levels than go for sc5! If it takes you that long to kill things, learn to kill faster.
One last thought, and maybe this comes from a meleer more so than a caster : if they stripe your buffs, KILL THEM! Dont recast! If you can do damage to them they cant cast anyway! KILL KILL KILL!!! Again, from my mind, your whole argument (based on pvm) is now moot. I Loved it better when i thought it was for pvp. Oh well.
This post is for general information purposes only, and does not constitute a legal opinion or render any legal advice. It may not be relied on for any purpose, and gives rise to
Quote: Posted 08/26/07 21:21 (GMT) -- avado
k, this is getin off topic. I also dont make things up! Come on out to our world and see me wail at 47dc or was it 49.. at lv 27/28. dude, i know nothing special about wizards. I also play PRC. My server implemented it a few years ago (2.2 prc version) and I absolutely love it.
PRC will probably do that, especially if you are using a yuan-ti.
Quote: Since the build ISNT for pvp, then in my mind, taking sc5 with a wiz is a true waste. II replaces it in a hurry and in my mind there are so many more important things to do with 6 levels than go for sc5! If it takes you that long to kill things, learn to kill faster.
You probably don't have the perspective of fighting multiple high level mages together or consistently being outnumbered in combat and using your character to draw fire power.
Quote: One last thought, and maybe this comes from a meleer more so than a caster : if they stripe your buffs, KILL THEM! Dont recast! If you can do damage to them they cant cast anyway! KILL KILL KILL!!! Again, from my mind, your whole argument (based on pvm) is now moot. I Loved it better when i thought it was for pvp. Oh well.
I had stated 1 to 40 PvM from the beginning. I had also listed the pros of being a meatshield, mord, support buff combination build. Quick killing is not neccessarily the intent of this build. There are many spells in a wizard's repetoire like bigby's that can change the tide of a battle and make quick killers near useless without a save. Besides many module creatures have immunity to death magic and mind spells, reducing a level 40 mage to about the same offensive power as Hidden Magic Elf.
Quote: have fun... im done
I figured that; if you want to try this build in PvP I'd suggest taking a party along.
Edited By WhiZard on 08/26/07 23:06
Quote: Posted 08/26/07 18:11 (GMT) -- avado
Its alittle like making a 20 fighter/20 cleric, taking the first 20 lvls as a fighter to say that you wont have a dispellable full bab, in the off chance that you loose it anyway! I have really only enjoyed playin clerics long term and I can say with certainty that I have lost this buff only a handfull of times and it was last night! To loose out on the 20 lvls JUST to make sure I get 30bab.. is such a waste.
The difference with Hidden Magic Elf is that he has 23 levels. A cleric casting greater dispelling will only remove 10% of the buffs. That is a little less than one buff, if he is fully buffed, and the vast majority of the buffs are of a lower spell level anyway than greater dispelling, so the cleric is basically wasting his time with greater dispelling.
It is the mords that I am concerned about.
Edited By WhiZard on 08/26/07 23:27
Quote: Posted 08/26/07 23:26 (GMT) -- WhiZard
Quote: Posted 08/26/07 18:11 (GMT) -- avado
Its alittle like making a 20 fighter/20 cleric, taking the first 20 lvls as a fighter to say that you wont have a dispellable full bab, in the off chance that you loose it anyway! I have really only enjoyed playin clerics long term and I can say with certainty that I have lost this buff only a handfull of times and it was last night! To loose out on the 20 lvls JUST to make sure I get 30bab.. is such a waste.
The difference with Hidden Magic Elf is that he has 23 levels. A cleric casting greater dispelling will only remove 10% of the buffs. That is a little less than one buff, if he is fully buffed, and the vast majority of the buffs are of a lower spell level anyway than greater dispelling, so the cleric is basically wasting his time with greater dispelling.
It is the mords that I am concerned about.
Again, you miss the point of what i was saying which is typical for a build where the builder realizes that he has made a mistake and tries to defend the mistake with talk and talk and talk and talk. anyway, this has gone on too long. From what I get, if mords is your concern, then you shouldnt be using this character! Mords is a spell. I have had it cast on me in pvm (which is what we are talkin about) more times than I can count, yet, i have enver panicked! The best defence is an excellent offence. But relying on your friends is your strat so the best you have built is a support character. A bard is an amazing support character. A wizard is supposed to be an damage dealing master... that you have said this isnt one, all i can say is buyer beware. _________________
I think avado answered your question like no other could...
Guys, there's no need to get into an argument over this. The build's solid for what the designer wanted, and I see no need to try to make it into something completely different. If you have suggestions for improving it, then by all means, that's what the purpose of the guild is: to help people improve their builds (for their intended purpose). But trying to argue it should be something it's not designed for and then calling the build and/or builder down because it doesn't fit into that particular square hole isn't what the guild's all about. And keep in mind that most everything's been done already, so a fresh look at a character class with a different angle at playing it is something that should be encouraged, IMO. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
but seems to me this is a rather neat support character re: from the back lines (definitely easily killable, don't get me wrong, as really, you so totally are: dispellable and no nat. ab? on the other hand, as he (or she) says, frankly, mords and mass haste -- I am a true meeleer -- by all means, buff me up (esp. if dev. crit is enabled, while you rebuff (incl. us), let the bards sing, and while you are morded (yes, dispellable and zero damage pvm or pvp on your end, imo) On the other hand, as he (or she) says, fact is, all are mord's pvp --- you rehaste amd give a mellee'r what he/she needs while YOU mords ... me melee'rs (or anyone's, not saying this coz I like melee best or anything, but fact is, and it is a fact, you got a mage on your end, along with a bard, so that ... well, you get the point, right? 
2 words for you:
THe only wiz I ever made had a wail dc of 49 at lv 27 so what do I know.