The Dragon Prince- Barbarian (15), Druid (15), Champion of Torm (10)
Machiavelli depicted that it was better if a prince were feared than love, which is the essential scope of this build. With terrifying rage, divine wrath, and smite evil this build typifies the rule of the medieval monarch.
This build is similar to Dragon Fear by Jushak Brimstone which up to now is the only listed build with dragon-shape, terrifying rage and no alignment change (though it does not have divine wrath).
Human, Neutral Good (True Neutral and Chaotic Neutral also work). Level 1 to 40 PvM
Hitpoints: 400 max, 306 average (940 max Dragon shape + 240 from rage/buffs with regeneration) Skillpoints: 238 (20 cross-classed in tumble) Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 31/34/22 (Dragon 42/34/36) Saving Throw bonuses: +6 versus spells, +3 reflex versus traps BAB: 28/23/18/13 AB: 27/22/17/12 Ranged: 38/33/28/23 Dragon: 47/42/37/32 (+5 divine wrath (works on ranged), + 5 smite, up to +6 buffs, up to +15 disarm, +2 in wilderness areas) AC (naked/mundane armor and shield): 25 (50 Dragon uncanny dodge secures the dexterity)
LEVELING GUIDE 01: Druid (1): Blind Fight, Disarm 02: Druid (2): 03: Druid (3): Extend Spell 04: Druid (4): Wisdom +1 (18) 05: Druid (5): 06: Druid (6): Brew Potion 07: Druid (7): 08: Druid (8): Wisdom +1 (19) 09: Barbarian (1): Zen Archery 10: Barbarian (2): 11: Barbarian (3): 12: Barbarian (4): Weapon Focus (sickle)*, Wisdom +1 (20) 13: Champion of Torm (1): 14: Champion of Torm (2): Improved Critical (unarmed) 15: Champion of Torm (3): Extra Smiting 16: Champion of Torm (4): Knockdown, Wisdom +1 (21) 17: Barbarian (5): 18: Barbarian (6): Skill Focus (Intimidate) 19: Barbarian (7): 20: Barbarian (8): Wis + 1(22) 21: Champion of Torm (5): Great Wisdom I (23) 22: Champion of Torm (6): Great Wisdom II (24) 23: Champion of Torm (7): 24: Champion of Torm (8): Great Wisdom III, Great Wisdom IV, Wisdom +1 (27) 25: Champion of Torm (9): 26: Champion of Torm (10): Great Wisdom V (28) 27: Barbarian (9): Great Wisdom VI (29) 28: Druid (9): Wisdom +1 (30) 29: Druid (10): 30: Druid (11): Great Charisma I (17) 31: Druid (12): 32: Druid (13): Charisma +1 (18) 33: Druid (14): Dragon Shape 34: Barbarian (10): 35: Barbarian (11): 36: Barbarian (12): Epic Skill Focus (Intimidate), Charisma +1 (19) 37: Barbarian (13): 38: Barbarian (14): 39: Barbarian (15): Terrifying Rage 40: Druid (15): Charisma +1 (20)
* This feat is only to qualify for Champion of Torm (unarmed or ranged focus do not qualify)
Pros: Does well against enemies of lower levels. There is no alignment change in the build. The divine wrath affects ranged shots as well as dragon melee. Terrifying rage has a DC of 60 + 1d10 at level 40.
Playability: Use animal companion from the start and then start relying on wildshape. After one successful disarm future disarms will increase your AB and blind fight will help you versus concealment. Use stoneskin to penetrate damage reduction. As levels increase you can start using the rages to help your wildshape forms as well as drinking potions to replenish buffs. The high wisdom will help the DC of your low level spells. Don't let combat get too long. Playability gets difficult in the mid epic levels.
Disadvantages: Immunity to fear (part of immunity to mind spells) will negate the terrifying rage paralysis for those under his level as well as the attack and save decrease for those of his level or higher (up to two times his level). Immunity to paralysis (part of freedom of movement) will negate the terrifying rage paralysis for those under his level.
Though in PvP the plethora of immunities can make a tremendous difference as one has to have immunity to fear or to paralysis to avoid paralysis, in PvM most monster skins that have immunity to one often have immunity to the other, thus it would act in PvM almost exactly as a true fear would (except for the duration).
Why not take 12 Barbarian pre-epic? That would either A) net you +1 BAB, or B) grant you two more CoT feats at epic levels.
I'm not sure you gain anything from going 8 Barbarian pre-epic, beyond maybe playability (though I'm not convinced 8 Druid is better than 12 Barbarian pre-epic).
Quote: Posted 09/03/07 07:33 (GMT) -- mantis3
Why not take 12 Barbarian pre-epic? That would either A) net you +1 BAB, or B) grant you two more CoT feats at epic levels.
I'm not sure you gain anything from going 8 Barbarian pre-epic, beyond maybe playability (though I'm not convinced 8 Druid is better than 12 Barbarian pre-epic).
It is purely playability. A high AB with only 8 Str isn't going to do wonders. It also forces dragon shape to be taken later. I have tried such a build in my pretesting. It was 16Barb/10COT/14Druid. Dragon Shape at 39, the Rage much earlier and level 40 was barbarian giving a +1 to the terrifying rage DC. This build did not have extend spell nor brew potion and instead took WF longbow and Point Blank. When I get a chance I'll post it as a reply for comparison.
In general increasing the barbarian preepic will force dragon shape to be taken much later and is often best changing the split to 16 Barbarian so that a barbarian level can be taken at level 40 (right after dragon shape) to maximize intimidate for the terrifying rage. The split will deprive the druid of one level of spells which makes aura of vitality unable to be extended, thus extend spell is not taken in either of the following builds as a feat.
Playtesting Option 1
In comparison with main build: +2 AB, Fortitude -2, Reflex +2, Will -3, -1 Saving Throws versus spells, + 1 reflex versus traps, +1 rage use, terrifying rage DC +1, druid level 7 spells (no extended aura of vitality), playable level 40 only.
Human, Neutral Good Barbarian 16/COT 10/Druid 14
Str 8 Dex 8 Cons 8 Int 12 Wis 18 Cha 16
LEVELING GUIDE 01: Barbarian (1): Blind Fight, Weapon Focus: Longbow 02: Barbarian (2): 03: Barbarian (3): Zen Archery 04: Barbarian (4): Wisdom +1 (19) 05: Barbarian (5): 06: Barbarian (6): Weapon Focus (sickle)* 07: Barbarian (7): 08: Barbarian (8): Wisdom +1 (20) 09: Champion of Torm (1): Point Blank 10: Champion of Torm (2): Improved Critical (Longbow) 11: Champion of Torm (3): 12: Champion of Torm (4): Extra Smiting, Improved Critical (unarmed) Wisdom +1 (21) 13: Champion of Torm (5): 14: Champion of Torm (6): Knockdown 15: Barbarian (9): Skill Focus (Intimidate) 16: Barbarian (10): Wisdom +1 (22) 17: Barbarian (11): 18: Barbarian (12): Skill Focus (Taunt) 19: Barbarian (13): 20: Barbarian (14):Wisdom + 1(23) 21: Champion of Torm (7): Great Wisdom I (24) 22: Champion of Torm (8): Great Wisdom II (25) 23: Champion of Torm (9): 24: Barbarian (15): Terrifying Rage, Wisdom +1 (26) 25: Champion of Torm (10): Great Wisdom III (27) 26: Druid (1): 27: Druid (2): Epic Skill Focus (Intimidate) 28: Druid (3): Wisdom +1 (28) 29: Druid (4): 30: Druid (5): Great Wisdom V (29) 31: Druid (6): 32: Druid (7): Wisdom +1 (30) 33: Druid (8): Great Charisma I (17) 34: Druid (9): 35: Druid (10): 36: Druid (11): Great Charisma II, Charisma +1 (19) 37: Druid (12): 38: Druid (13): 39: Druid (14): Dragon Shape 40: Barbarian (16): Charisma +1 (20)
Playtest option 2
In comparison with main build: Fortitude -2, Reflex -2, Will +1, +2 Saving Throws versus spells, + 1 reflex versus traps, +1 rage use, terrifying rage DC +1, druid level 7 spells (no extended aura of vitality).
Human Neutral Good Barbarian 16/Druid 15/COT 10
Str 8 Dex 8 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 16
LEVELING GUIDE 01: Druid (1): Blind Fight, Disarm 02: Druid (2): 03: Druid (3): Knockdown 04: Druid (4): Wisdom +1 (17) 05: Druid (5): 06: Druid (6): Zen Archery 07: Druid (7): 08: Druid (8): Wisdom +1 (18) 09: Barbarian (1): Improved Critical(unarmed) 10: Barbarian (2): 11: Barbarian (3): 12: Barbarian (4): Expertise, Wisdom +1 (19) 13: Barbarian (5): 14: Barbarian (6): 15: Barbarian (7): Weapon Focus (sickle)* 16: Barbarian (8): Wisdom +1 (20) 17: Barbarian (9): 18: Barbarian (10): Skill Focus (Intimidate) 19: Barbarian (11): 20: Barbarian (12): Wisdom + 1(21) 21: Barbarian (13): Great Wisdom I (22) 22: Champion of Torm (1): 23: Barbarian (14): 24: Barbarian (15): Terrifying Rage, Wisdom +1 (23) 25: Champion of Torm (2):Great Wisdom I (24) 26: Champion of Torm (3): 27: Champion of Torm (4): Great Wisdom II, Great Wisdom III (26) 28: Champion of Torm (5): Wisdom +1 (27) 29: Champion of Torm (6): Great Wisdom IV (28) 30: Champion of Torm (7): Epic Skill Focus (Intimidate) 31: Champion of Torm (8): Great Wisdom V (29) 32: Champion of Torm (9): Charisma +1 (17) 33: Champion of Torm (10): Extra Smiting, Great Wisdom VI (29) 34: Druid (9): 35: Druid (10): 36: Druid (11): Great Charisma , Charisma +1 (19) 37: Druid (12): 38: Druid (13): 39: Druid (14): Dragon Shape 40: Barbarian(16): Charisma +1 (20)
So, a dragon with Divine Wrath and Terrifying Rage.
Taking the dragon shape early is far more important than a few BAB, you only need to raise BAB to get 4 APR. Without dragon shape you have regular wildshape (not even Dire shapes, those are at Druid level 12) to level up, I'd take 12 Druid pre-epic for those Dire Shapes, they get higher stats, I somewhat doubt that your ranged attack will work, you deal a lot of more damage with spells than with a bow. The most playable way is always higher Druid but you would lose Terrifying Rage for it.
It's nice but I wouldn't take Disarm without Improved Disarm, giving your enemies AoOs every time you use it is not nice. I'd easily change Brew Potion or Extra Smiting for Improved Disarm. _________________
Quote: Posted 12/19/06 19:54 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Thax the Shadow Dragon sez: MONKS USE KAMAS. Just ask him.
So, a dragon with Divine Wrath and Terrifying Rage.
Taking the dragon shape early is far more important than a few BAB, you only need to raise BAB to get 4 APR. Without dragon shape you have regular wildshape (not even Dire shapes, those are at Druid level 12) to level up, I'd take 12 Druid pre-epic for those Dire Shapes, they get higher stats, I somewhat doubt that your ranged attack will work, you deal a lot of more damage with spells than with a bow. The most playable way is always higher Druid but you would lose Terrifying Rage for it.
It's nice but I wouldn't take Disarm without Improved Disarm, giving your enemies AoOs every time you use it is not nice. I'd easily change Brew Potion or Extra Smiting for Improved Disarm.
You're absolutely right. I approached this build starting at max AB and then degenerating the AB for playability. All I had to do is take one more step and I would have dragon shape at level 30. I have put your suggestions into a leveling guide to demonstrate the advantage.
Compared to main build: BAB-1, Reflex +1
LEVELING GUIDE 01: Druid (1): Blind Fight, Disarm 02: Druid (2): 03: Druid (3): Extend Spell 04: Druid (4): Wisdom +1 (18) 05: Druid (5): 06: Druid (6): Improved Disarm 07: Druid (7): 08: Druid (8): Wisdom +1 (19) 09: Druid (9): Zen Archery 10: Druid (10): 11: Druid (11): 12: Druid (12): Weapon Focus (sickle)*, Wisdom +1 (20) 13: Champion of Torm (1): 14: Champion of Torm (2): Improved Critical (unarmed) 15: Champion of Torm (3): Extra Smiting 16: Champion of Torm (4): Knockdown, Wisdom +1 (21) 17: Barbarian (1): 18: Barbarian (2): Skill Focus (Intimidate) 19: Barbarian (3): 20: Barbarian (4): Wis + 1(22) 21: Champion of Torm (5): Great Wisdom I (23) 22: Champion of Torm (6): Great Wisdom II (24) 23: Champion of Torm (7): 24: Champion of Torm (8): Great Wisdom III, Great Wisdom IV, Wisdom +1 (27) 25: Champion of Torm (9): 26: Champion of Torm (10): Great Wisdom V (28) 27: Barbarian (5): Great Wisdom VI (29) 28: Barbarian (6): Wisdom +1 (30) 29: Druid (13): 30: Druid (14): Dragon Shape 31: Barbarian (7): 32: Barbarian (8): Charisma +1 (17) 33: Barbarian (9): Great Charisma I 34: Barbarian (10): 35: Barbarian (11): 36: Barbarian (12): Epic Skill Focus (Intimidate), Charisma +1 (19) 37: Barbarian (13): 38: Barbarian (14): 39: Barbarian (15): Terrifying Rage 40: Druid (15): Charisma +1 (20)
Quote: CON: 10
I would prefer an additional 40 skill points over 2 wasted attributes
Quote: 06: Druid (6): Brew Potion
Nice idea but why bother when brewed potions are un-usable while shifted. Huge flaw by Bioware
Quote: 09: Barbarian (1): Zen Archery
Use Dire Bear to level up... This whole want-to-be-ranged thing doesn't very well compliment your build.
Quote: ...disarms will increase your AB...
Uhmm Hardly. Your unarmed creature weapon is considered "MEDIUM" meaning you will actually LOSE ab against all but tiny/small weapons.
Quote: Playability gets difficult in the mid epic levels.
An understatement.
Quote: ...as one has to have immunity to fear...
Any Paladin.
Quote: Human Neutral Good Barbarian 16/Druid 15/COT 10
Hrmm.. Lvl 41?
Quote: Taking the dragon shape early is far more important than a few BAB
I disagree. All Dragon AB sucks.
AB <= 60 w/o F.F. =
My 2 cents!
I struggle to comprehend why you are all Sooo wrapped up in playability pre-40. With the default XP Scale in NWN it is waaay too easy to level up. I see no logic in gimping out a build that will spend most of its time at lvl 40 just to make it a little bit easier to level up. But that's just me!
Personally I think all Dragos w/o Monk =
I do like the whole Terrifying Rage thing though. I have done it with a Barbarian Druid Palemaster Drago b4.
It sucks
Edited By SKIPPNUTTZ on 09/04/07 01:32
You've obviously never played a Druid 14 dragon, I have and it's one of the hardest builds to level up until you get dragon shape (considering good builds, not crappy ones). The only playable dragons IMO are heavy Druid (to use Elder Elementals until you get dragon shapes) or Shifters (lots of useful shifts on the way). CoT helps a lot to get dragon shape sooner, but it's normally not enough.
All dragon AB sucks? hardly, any dragon has around +45 AB, which is good on any low magical environment (only an idiot would play a dragon on a high magical environment, no offense), strong good dragons get about +55, Cleric dragons can buff even higher (around +65) for short durations.
I agree that any dragon with Monk levels will obviously beat the crap out of dragons without Monk levels, the difference in AC and APR is way too high. _________________
Quote: Posted 12/19/06 19:54 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Thax the Shadow Dragon sez: MONKS USE KAMAS. Just ask him.
Quote: Posted 09/04/07 01:24 (GMT) -- SKIPPNUTTZ
I struggle to comprehend why you are all Sooo wrapped up in playability pre-40. With the default XP Scale in NWN it is waaay too easy to level up. I see no logic in gimping out a build that will spend most of its time at lvl 40 just to make it a little bit easier to level up. But that's just me!
DUDE, you are playing on servers that are way to easy! If all you do is play lv 40 builds, well, lets just say that that is sad! THe reason us old timers play this game is for the people and fun of it! Life is in the journey, not the destination.
Now, if all you are good at is birthing lv 40 builds, then by all means. I know understand you alot better. _________________
I actually build EPIC builds, not these little boy toys!
Peace
That was uncalled for, there's no need to degrade other people's builds just because they're not strong, there's more into the game than just strength, don't post here if you're going to do so, not everyone has to be an uber builder whenever you get to read their builds.
As noted, SKIPPNUTZ, these builds are generally meant to be played from level 1 and are not geared towards a 'spawned at level 40 PvP' environment, which is what it appears your comments are leaning towards (forgive me if I'm wrong). In that type of environment, there's very little variation in what you can choose as an uber build and still be competetive. In fact, many people enjoy playing their character up to level 40, then retiring that one and starting another.
You'd do well to read the build description and take note of what environment/playstyle the build's designed for before taking the author to task for not building for something different. You'd be even better served to reconsider insulting other members of the guild. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 09/04/07 01:24 (GMT) -- SKIPPNUTTZ
I do like the whole Terrifying Rage thing though. I have done it with a Barbarian Druid Palemaster Drago b4.
It sucks
I'd be interested to see how you pulled off that class combo. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Just for disambiguation:
Quote: Posted 09/04/07 01:24 (GMT) -- SKIPPNUTTZ
I would prefer an additional 40 skill points over 2 wasted attributes
I would prefer +40HP while casting spells so I can get more spell work done before shifting.
Quote:
Nice idea but why bother when brewed potions are un-usable while shifted. Huge flaw by Bioware
Potion buffing allows you to gain more distance on a run and buff, and potions are slightly faster than regular buffs.
Quote:
Use Dire Bear to level up... This whole want-to-be-ranged thing doesn't very well compliment your build.
This would be PvM, and I know quite a few mods that require the ability to perform a ranged attack, as well as spell immune monsters that you don't want to get close to.
Quote:
Quote: ...disarms will increase your AB...
Uhmm Hardly. Your unarmed creature weapon is considered "MEDIUM" meaning you will actually LOSE ab against all but tiny/small weapons.
That fragment was taking completely out of context. If you read the whole sentence you might have seen the words after a successful disarm, meaning the target creature would have no weapon.
Quote:
Quote: ...as one has to have immunity to fear...
Any Paladin.
Paladins may be frequent in PvP, in PvM there are a whole slew of other or worse nasties to deal with.
Quote:
Quote: Human Neutral Good Barbarian 16/Druid 15/COT 10
Hrmm.. Lvl 41?
Yes it is a typo if you look at the leveling guide there is 14 levels of druid. You can count them.
Edited By WhiZard on 09/05/07 02:42
Quote: That fragment was taking completely out of context. If you read the whole sentence you might have seen the words after a successful disarm, meaning the target creature would have no weapon.
But you see "unarmed" is considered a MEDIUM weapon so you would lose ab after the successful hit. I don't really see any logic in taking disarm feats except to gain AB. Like a Ranger Monk with a scythe or Heavy Flail.
Personally I would take Knockdown, Improved Knockdown to negate the - 2 AB from Huge size. Also giving your teammates the opportunity to score lots of sneak damage while prone.
At any rate I am sorry about my remarks to Avacado. I was a little under the influence last night.
And Cinnabar, I have leveled a 23 Ranger 15 Druid 2 Monk dragon in PvM, it is tough but with junk stealth, ikd, and several other tactics it wasn't too hard to hit lvl 40. I was more or less saying that I believe it is more important looking at the end result of a build because usually you are going to spend a lot more time playing it at lvl 40.
It was even harder to level up my Monk 25 Druid 5 Shifter 10 Vampire build... So dragons aren't the hardest to lvl up...
Anyways.....
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 01:15 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Quote: Posted 09/04/07 01:24 (GMT) -- SKIPPNUTTZ
I do like the whole Terrifying Rage thing though. I have done it with a Barbarian Druid Palemaster Drago b4.
It sucks
I'd be interested to see how you pulled off that class combo.
wow I really was drunk
Edited By SKIPPNUTTZ on 09/05/07 03:39
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 03:31 (GMT) -- SKIPPNUTTZ
Quote: That fragment was taking completely out of context. If you read the whole sentence you might have seen the words after a successful disarm, meaning the target creature would have no weapon.
But you see "unarmed" is considered a MEDIUM weapon so you would lose ab after the successful hit. I don't really see any logic in taking disarm feats except to gain AB. Like a Ranger Monk with a scythe or Heavy Flail.
My tests have yielded different results for vs. unarmed. I'm not sure but I think it is monk that gets a disarm at the size of creature it is fighting, which is where I think you might be getting unarmed = MEDIUM from.
Quote: Posted 09/03/07 19:37 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia Taking the dragon shape early is far more important than a few BAB, you only need to raise BAB to get 4 APR.
I'm a min/maxer, I generally look at it from a level 40 perspective - and try to maximize my stats for that goal.
I can understand in some PW's where you'd want to attain Dragon Shape earlier, though. I just don't play there.
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 03:31 (GMT) -- SKIPPNUTTZ
Personally I would take Knockdown, Improved Knockdown to negate the - 2 AB from Huge size. Also giving your teammates the opportunity to score lots of sneak damage while prone.
It won't negate the -2 AB from size. KD/IKD imposes a -4 AB penalty on the KD attempt, regardless of your size or your opponent's size. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
I much prefer a playable 1-40 rather than an instant 40.
The servers "I" play on make it hard to hit 40. Once there... you tend to not HUNT as much and just RP more. The "Epic" part is the EPIC struggle to get to 40.
Planning builds for playability is a balance of both worlds. Good end results and functional leveling process. That's much harder to do than to slap an instant level 40 build together.
Keeping that in mind, I like Raging Dragons that actually scare people.
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 13:10 (GMT) -- mantis3
Quote: Posted 09/03/07 19:37 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia Taking the dragon shape early is far more important than a few BAB, you only need to raise BAB to get 4 APR.
I'm a min/maxer, I generally look at it from a level 40 perspective - and try to maximize my stats for that goal.
I can understand in some PW's where you'd want to attain Dragon Shape earlier, though. I just don't play there.
I hear ya, I'm also a min/maxer, but seriously, getting dragon shape until level 39 (and without strong shifts in the meantime) makes it a boring build to play. _________________
Quote: Posted 12/19/06 19:54 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Thax the Shadow Dragon sez: MONKS USE KAMAS. Just ask him.
What is NOT fun about an uberfast Badger with Stunning fist. ROFL..
Thats how I spent most of my time leveling my Vampire. Just for the challenge of it.
Stunning fist from stealth then just Flurry and let your Panther demolish the spawn with its sneak damage.
Even against True Seeing the broken monk speed lets you flatfoot spawns...
It sucked not taking Druid until lvl 21 but I felt the extra reflex saves vs spells was WELL worth it.
I had a Wizard friend brew me a bunch of true strike potions which helped my stun fists A LOT.
Meh I can see where you are coming from though with the pre-epic dragos. Especially w/o Monk
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 15:19 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 03:31 (GMT) -- SKIPPNUTTZ
Personally I would take Knockdown, Improved Knockdown to negate the - 2 AB from Huge size. Also giving your teammates the opportunity to score lots of sneak damage while prone.
It won't negate the -2 AB from size. KD/IKD imposes a -4 AB penalty on the KD attempt, regardless of your size or your opponent's size.
But you gain +4 AB on KD checks for every size category you are larger than your opponent. With IKD and Drago shape you have a much better AB spamming KD. Especially when they are prone! Which will make up for his lack of APR by going with COT Barb...
Human = Medium Size (average size) Dragon = Huge Size Dragon w/ IKD = Huge Size + 1 Dragon w/ IKD vs Human = 3 size categories larger
should be -2 AB for huge, then the +12 for IKD vs Medium size, then the -4 AB for KD attempt.
So really you are negating the huge size ab malus and the KD attempt malus by using IKD. Whereas Disarm would grant you a mere fraction of that. Because additional IKD attempts will grant you a further +4 ab while they are allready prone (65 AB). Granting you the full +12 - 2.
Furthermore adding much better hit chances and flank damage for the rest of your party.
Any comments?
Cinnaber is right. Despite the description for knockdown there is no AB bonus/penalty for difference in size. You get a -4 to knockdown regardless. So improved knockdown is only gives any benefit if your size is medium or less. If your size is large or greater it improved knockdown is the same as knockdown.
Yeah, they made it so that you can't bug the game, if your AB could icrease while spamming Knockdown compared to regular hits it would be very cheap.
On the other hand, dragons are pretty nice resisting knockdown, size does work for that.
Hmmm... Looks like they did the same thing to disarm. Well the disarm would have boosted the AB one patch ago, which is when I tested it. So it looks like improved disarm might not be worth it since I will probably only make one attempt on a target for the weapon.
Quote: Posted 09/06/07 00:46 (GMT) -- SKIPPNUTTZ
Any comments?
Yeah. As noted, your calculations are wrong. As I said, KD/IKD does not add to your AB at all, ever. You get a -4 penalty to your AB when performing KD/IKD. The +4 bonus/penalty for size goes to the Discipline check, not the AB. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 09/06/07 16:49 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din
Quote: Posted 09/06/07 00:46 (GMT) -- SKIPPNUTTZ
Any comments?
Yeah. As noted, your calculations are wrong. As I said, KD/IKD does not add to your AB at all, ever. You get a -4 penalty to your AB when performing KD/IKD. The +4 bonus/penalty for size goes to the Discipline check, not the AB.
Exactly. IKD doesn't give you a higher AB, it makes the KD harder to resist if it connects. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
OUCH!
<--- Not satisfied...
I need attack log confirmation! brb
Quote: Posted 09/05/07 03:31 (GMT) -- SKIPPNUTTZ
But you see "unarmed" is considered a MEDIUM weapon
No, it is not. Unarmed is always considered the same size as the opposing weapon. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
in this case (MEDIUM) -----> unarmed/creature claw!
Skippy, we all appreciate that you're trying to help, but c'mon, Mate. Before making blanket statements, might want to read up a bit (don't take this the wrong way, but we don't actually just build and play stuff around here, but actually test stuff (and when it comes to dragons, listen to Sir Kail is alls I can say
As to dragon AB, see Sir Kail's post, top of page 2, it's very insightful (and totally accurate, having just tested it myself to make sure no changes on account of 1.68), Click Here
As to the workings of unarmed and disarming, might I suggest this thread (re: Sir Bromium's post regarding testing with disarming, monks and dragons): Click Here
Really hope this helps (oh, and btw Wiz, interesting build - fear aura on a dragon? neat! yeah, monk is wonderful I agree, there is no doubt; but would require an alignment change which may or may not be allowed on his server. That aside, and anyway, fear aura is kinda nice on a dragon, and looks like fun. Cool concept, and with smite and div.wrath, should be playable enough! ~ Cheers, Tyr _________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 09/07/07 21:47
Quote: Posted 09/07/07 21:43 (GMT) -- TyrTemplar As to the workings of unarmed and disarming, might I suggest this thread (re: Sir Bromium's post regarding testing with disarming, monks and dragons): Click Here
More like: Sir not appearing anywhere in that link....
*shrug*
oops, sorry, Bromium; for some reason, could've sworn it was you who tested the unarmed on various shapes (heh heh, don't know why on earth I would think it would be you when it comes to dem shifter types
My apologies; I remembered the thread, just not the tester (sorry, guys). In that particular thread, it was Tatooed Monk who, in responding to a question regarding monks (unarmed vs. weapon when it comes to disarming), had the following to say about it:
... unarmed disarm attempts are made at no penalty or bonus regardless of the weapon size you are trying to take. It's as if it counts the disarm attempt as against the opponents hand rather than against their weapon. Kail discovered this when we were working on a disarming Dragon Shape build - we thought it would get a bonus to disarm since the dragon claw is considered a huge weapon, but it got no bonus when we checked the combat log. Then we checked disarm attempts while in human shape and found the same thing.
TM
_________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
