Hitpoints: 440 Max (336 Average) (Shifts can increase the constitution and add temporary hit points) Skillpoints: 301 Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 26/33/20 Azer Cheiftan: 29/33/20 Rakshasa: 28/35/28 Death Slaad Lord: 28/33/25
Saving Throw bonuses: +6 vs spells (spellcraft), immunity to mind spells, (+3 vs spells Rakshasa only). BAB: 25/22/19/16/13 AB: Azer Cheiftan (35/30/25), Rakshasa (33/28/23), Death Slaad Lord (30/27/24/21/18) Ranged AB: 34 AC (naked): 31, Azer: 44, Rak: 49, Death Slaad: 51 +3 to AC from barkskin 1d4 +1 to strength with bulls strength SR: 49 Stunning Fist DC: 39 Speed increase: 80%
Outsider Shape seemed the best for this set-up. Each shape has a long range special ability that deals damage, which really helps an otherwise melee only character. The SR is so high that all level 40 builds will suffer at least a 10% chance of the spell being resisted. Lack of Spell Penetration Feats or class levels increase this chance even more. Even a pure wizard will have trouble against the Rakshasa and might even lose in a spell duel. Multiclasses, like Palemaster are pretty much finished by this shape. Chaos spittle works well against creatures immune to spells. If the fight gets to tough the Outside the Natural can run away, unshift and heal.
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 05/27/10 21:04
How do you kill? A lvl five icestorm wont kill a lvl 40 oppponent...and for sure not a mage. Def is uber as rak tho. Why not take undead shape? With that sr crit immy is more useful than the rak spell immy.
Quote: Posted 10/01/07 06:34 (GMT) -- bloodymerc
How do you kill? A lvl five icestorm wont kill a lvl 40 oppponent...and for sure not a mage. Def is uber as rak tho. Why not take undead shape? With that sr crit immy is more useful than the rak spell immy.
Run and snipe. If the AC of the target is low enough then clobber in melee. Slaad can disarm and take the weapon in a good 4 rounds even on a forced 20 and they regenerate. Undead shape is rather lacking in abilities, and construct shape has to low of a DR and AC. I found outsider to work the best of the three. The main advantage is you have an infinite number (well actually only 200) uses of abilities per shift.
Pardon for asking, but how on earth are you going to level this thing? Pure monk the first 16 levels, all without any AB and damage to notice. Its like you're a melee mage, without spells.
Zen archery will give you some AB, but without any ranged attack feats you'll be hard pressed if relying on ranged weapons.
But if you think of it as a lv 40 build only, then I believe it could be interesting.
Quote: Posted 10/01/07 14:35 (GMT) -- Cerolill
Pardon for asking, but how on earth are you going to level this thing? Pure monk the first 16 levels, all without any AB and damage to notice. Its like you're a melee mage, without spells.
Zen archery will give you some AB, but without any ranged attack feats you'll be hard pressed if relying on ranged weapons.
But if you think of it as a lv 40 build only, then I believe it could be interesting.
The answer to your question is stated above:
PvM/PvP, Level 40 Theme Build (Highest SR epic shape)
Cool, Rak, and get that it's a theme build which ISR should make for an all the more interesting Rak, and thus a cool addition to a team; though ice storm's a pain, not metamgicked here, and the SR's not that great so don't see how it takes out mages (but a pain, indeed, and the ISR to avoid a lot of spellswords (barring spell pen feats especially), and that's pretty sweet!); as to melee, sorry, Whiz ... not seeing it, as you haven't any AB/damage (relying on a "forced 20"? er, you'll be long gone and buried b/f that, in all pvp environs (and perhaps I'm wrong, but don't imagine there are too many level 40 pvm environs around, but maybe you can enlighten us all as to that)
As to a lev. 40 rak though w. the ISR trick, along with monk speed, empty body a couple times per day coupled w. monk AC and speed (nice, should at least help avoid say the bolt thing , along w. those immunities is alls in all pretty cool, I agree; should make for a welcome addition to any team: yep, raks are cool, and even nicer w. the speed/empty body thing.
*edit: as to undeads, well, it's an idea, the scythe lord would buffed bull's w. nat.sense get a 42-ish ab (as I recall), but I'd question 2 shapes so vulnerable let's say to clerics and paladins, plus undeads can't use healing potions, nor can that scythe lord shape make any use whatsoever of the monk's table either (no more than any other armed shape, imo, so the azer chief etc. doesn't either (only unarmed shapes do, imo, such that armed shapes here are limited to 3 apr). Different story for the constructs though, which you may want to rethink since, as unarmed shapes w. some str, can put that monk table to better use, which I think would be cool, and might at times come in handy too, no? (and especially when avoiding say blessed bolt-wielders or other such nasties, and which you can read more about: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Construct_shape
Rak On! And Cheers, Tyr _________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 10/02/07 06:41
The main problem I had with constructs is the DR was less than +5, meaning that their blows could not penetrate +5 DR. Their AC is also low allowing more hits to go through and they are severely limited in special abilities (rock throw requires reflex save and poison gas requires two failures on a given poison attempt to kill). Further no construct has weapon merge which the rak and azer benefit from (allowing their AB and damage to increase in high magic environments), and the iron golem is the only construct with item merge, and there is no construct form with regeneration, in case one needs to run away and heal.
Outsider seemed the best.
Remember also that the AC displayed is naked. Gear and improved expertise can increase it (Especially perma-haste).
Edited By WhiZard on 10/02/07 16:22
Quote: Posted 10/02/07 16:14 (GMT) -- WhiZard
The main problem I had with constructs is the DR was less than +5, meaning that their blows could not penetrate +5 DR. Their AC is also low allowing more hits to go through and they are severely limited in special abilities (rock throw requires reflex save and poison gas requires two failures on a given poison attempt to kill).
Actually, your construct is +4 for DR purposes (and other shapes can breach w. barkskin (so long as it lasts), and as armor merges, can get a DR item, which doesn't add to AB or damage, but does transform ie paws into magic weapons for DR-breach purposes); I get what you're saying re: items and constructs though, but no way in high magic environs is your Azer or Rak gonna hit in such environs (remember, enhancements a) don't stack, and b) only the highest stat boost applies anyway, no stacking there either -- only regenerative gear does, imo - and hence if you can, recommend you get one high ac item, and a couple regen items for construct. Also, and unlike rak or azer (apart from your ab/damage woes, don't work on monk table, so 3 apr at -5 spread as opposed to monk's 5 apr (6 flurry, at -3 spread), and in a +5 world, a melee'r has AC 60 (65 expertise), which you are not going to hit, but they will hit you -- then there's dev.crit (which rak's aren't immune too, imo, but construct are, along w. sneak -- at STR 33 (iron golem), +1d4+1 bull's, and if you can get an armor item w. a str. boost (they're out there), you can afford a few hits as a construct since you're immune to crits, sneak, etc. whereas your rak can't (and when you do hit as a construct, you'll do more damage anyway, plus, no bless-bolt woes (one hit, Whiz, just one, and rak dies, not even a save, it's insta-death -- and while AC 51 is nice, won't stop a pal or cleric (esp. not a dex-based one - and the higher magic you go, the more woes you will then have, so I see this build more for the lower magic, where a rak is even more helpful for sure when it comes to his/her team.
problem with shapes is the merger rules, no stacking, and seems to me when you've such a nice rak goin' on here, once that empty body runs out, assuming you're tired of running around all the time to avoid the bolt thing, esp. when all it takes is one, then construct makes sense, especially in a lower magic world where shifter types make the most sense anyway (but as a rak, heh heh, yeah, he's a nice one, and no matter how you buff it, though, in a higher magic world (i.e., a wm/melee'r hits AC 60 (65 expertise), dexers into the 70s, etc., and their AB also by comparison ... well, they're hitting you that much easier, so don't recommend higher magic settings (although, as a rak, you'll still be a mega pain to dem mages, which is cool
That said, in a low magic world, construct should do you good, as once again immune to crit, sneak, and of course no bless-bolt woes -- and reason why I suggest it; also, check out some of the elemental resistances the constructs get (i.e., one has acid, as in, low ac mages doin' that mestil's trick ... hint hint ... otherwise, and once again, neat. I like raks ~ Tyr _________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 10/02/07 18:09
Quote: Posted 10/02/07 17:43 (GMT) -- TyrTemplar
problem with shapes is the merger rules, no stacking, and seems to me when you've such a nice rak goin' on here, once that empty body runs out, assuming you're tired of running around all the time to avoid the bolt thing, esp. when all it takes is one, then construct makes sense, especially in a lower magic world where shifter types make the most sense anyway (but as a rak, heh heh, yeah, he's a nice one, and no matter how you buff it, though, in a higher magic world (i.e., a wm/melee'r hits AC 60 (65 expertise), dexers into the 70s, etc., and their AB also by comparison ... well, they're hitting you that much easier, so don't recommend higher magic settings (although, as a rak, you'll still be a mega pain to dem mages, which is cool
On no magic Rak AC is 49 + 3(barkskin) + 10(expertise) = 62
On a +5 environment Rak AC is 49 + 3(barkskin) + 5(wisdom) + 5(dex) + 10 (expertise) + 5(gear) = 77 (perma-haste gives a further +4).
I'm pretty sure ability increases stack. All in all Rak AC should be high enough to deter most blows, and might likely force 20s.
No, they don't, Whiz re: stat boosting gear - only the highest one applies, as is true of armor also, and even if can get to AC 70s w. the impr.expertise thing and forgetting about dispel (which dispelling both clerics and pally's do), a ranged pally or cleric in said place don't need no 20, and alls it takes is one bolt; it's your call, though. Same is true for a dev.critter (note: WM 50+ NAKED AB, +6 STR, +20 umd/truestrike .... er... meanwhile, rak's ab ... just ain't there, Whiz ... it's not (and no, a +5 weapon adds nothing to what you got, although any addit'l damage props that may be on said weapon which isn't already on rak or azer's would merge, the enhancements dont ... and not to mention the -10 ab impr.expertise costs, among other things, along w. the 3 apr and dispel thing ...
Seriously, Whiz, I like this build (don't get the wrong idea, and afraid you might mistake this critique to mean otherwise, which isn't my point: alls I'm saying, as is implied also by others above is that, while I do like the ISR/theme you got goin' on this rak, it's nice, it is; I just really think dropping a single monk or so for 1 or so more shifter to pick up construct would be worth it (note: not only for construct, though, but see also what epic gargoyle gets ya - especially in a low magic world, well, that soak be sweet, yes?
Just a thought, but again, as a rak, I say once again, tis nice, and totally agree it'll really trip up dem mages; just thinking you might like another shape "in case" of the non-mages as dev.crit's real, and so too are blessed bolts ~ in other words, not at all saying you should drop rak, just looking to see how better to protect it, that's all cos (once again) cool rak
Cheers, Tyr _________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 10/02/07 22:39
Quote: Posted 10/02/07 22:13 (GMT) -- TyrTemplar
No, they don't, Whiz
Actually in my test they did.
I did a little more experimentation after you posted to discover the inconsistency. Here's what happens when a player shifts into a shape his inventory (for equipment slots) is replaced with an inventory for the shifted shape and the properties of equipped items are copied. If there is a weapon in the offhand it is ignored. The properties of the main hand weapon are added to the new weapon (if there is one) and all other properties are added to the creature skin (only helmet, armor and shield if it is an armor merge only). As weapon and skin both take deflection AC all AC is changed to deflection the highest deflection replacing the others. For ability increases the highest weapon ability increase is added to the highest skin ability increase. Note that the items were never unequipped but rather the inventory was replaced. When you unshift you lose your creature inventory (for eqipped items) and get back your regular inventory with all the gear that was on it before.
So if you have a kama with +5 wisdom, +5dex, and a belt with +5 wisdom and +5 dex the two will stack when shifted for a total of +10 wisdom +10 dex.
Yes, Whiz, there is one exception to the general rule regarding weapons (which don't seem to be grouped as part of your hide), as follows:
Quote: Item properties pick the highest one when merging, instead of stacking. So you are better off with a Belt of Str +7, than a Belt of Str +5 and a Ring of Str +4. All AC types count as the same when shifted, and only pick the single highest one. However should you have the same property that would normally stack among your worn inventory on your WEAPON seperate from armor/items, since it is not grouped on your hide it will still stack normally with your hide properties. Regeneration seems to be the only property that does stack on your hide.
Bracers/gloves/gauntlets properties do not merge in any form.
That said, doesn't change anything, really, does it? i.e., a +5 kama (or dagger or whatever) won't add another +5 to creature weapons/armed shapes, nor change the fact that armed shapes don't operate on the monk's table (while a +6 weapon will take over for rak or azer weapon, such that your rak will instead hold a +6 staff, but still, only 3 apr at the reg. -5 spread, since the kama becomes the staff once merged (and staff don't count for monk table), but is that -- i.e., higher weaponry -- really somewhere where you wanna go?
Meanwhile, both wm's/dev.critters and dex-based pally's and clerics are hitting well into the 70s in a +5 environs, right? (and just think of what all that awesome gear to which you refer is gonna do for your non-merge woe foes, and reason why you simply don't see shifter-druid types in the higher (+5-up) magic settings
Again, hate to break it to you, and once again a cool rak, Whiz, it is, just not a melee'r (if you wanna go that route, might I recommend str-based kobold or WM/scythe lord, but entirely different builds, not to mention done to death, unlike this rak of yours that is, just don't try to meelee with it pvp is alls I be saying (on the other hand, dem kobold and undead types aren't exactly a pain for dem mages) - so, once again, let's hear it for "Outside" the Rak; just stay away from dem bolt-types, and be sure to bug 'em mages good _________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 10/03/07 02:50
Smiting yes. But an RDD/Fighter/Sorceror gets 30(BAB) + 3(Focus Feats) + 23(Strength) +5(enhancement) + 1d20 = 61 +1d20, and that's only with half orc. True strike does up the AB but it lasts so short that I could run while they cast it and they would lose a spell. Take Bard instead and it is possible to boost higher, but the builds that can rip apart 77AC usually have to spend their focus almost solely on melee. Sure I wouldn't stand against them. But I would stand quite well in melee against a multiclasser mage which was the example given for meleeing. For RDD/WM builds I would be using icestorm which is I think around 10-15 caster levels by the damage output it is doing.
This is becoming pointless, Whiz ... time stop, comes in umd also (which you don't have imo), and you can't run: Click Here (a sorc/rdd/dev.critter, w. mord's and a dev.crit DC 50's imo - sure, can avoid spells, but dev.crit?); so many builds, take a look at the pulse. Meanwhile, you're not in turn going to hit; Might also take a look at some level 40 mages, epic warding, not to mention high spell resistance too (and in a high magic world, you can expect your foes to have elemental resistance gear, plus regen and DR items, too, not to mention SR items); then, I wasn't in particular referring to mages, who yes, you do bug, no one's questioning that at all, Whiz, all mages in fact.
Far more scarry for you should be the dev. critters and blessed bolt wielders (paladins and clerics) and then there's pally/RDD's, many don't need no UMD to hit you (self buff, imo, and esp. when they come w. dev.crit: Click Here
Anyway, I've said enough, and already too much. Keeping it friendly, and food for thought. Otherwise, a cool rak (if I didn't like, I wouldn't bother, eh mate? Just some food for thought. Tyr out. _________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 10/03/07 04:02
Yes, as you mentioned this is not a build against everything. Its closer to a one trick build but having more variety than a stunning fist specialist that is worthless against foes immune to crits. I see the more variety that one more level of shifter would bring, however, taking that construct shape reduces the SR by 5, which almost makes the SR feats pointless. The SR increase is as I see it an all or nothing. I'll admit that 49 is pushing it on the low side but its the highest for an epic shape that I can get. If I were to take more shifter I would definitely drop the SR for better feats.
EDIT: To see my SR reasoning consider a mage that can barely penetrate 32 SR on a roll of one (highest toolkit SR). He then can pierce 49 on a roll of 18. If my build took one less monk level then the range of SR piercing would be doubled. If another SR feat were replaced the range would almost be triple the original. I would be stuck fighting them in Rak form, while if I was able to shift to Slaad I could deal them magic damage which they have no protection against.
Edited By WhiZard on 10/03/07 04:27
Nah, you ain't no "one trick" pony - you're one cool rak, with lots of nice stuff goin' on, and thus a valued member of your team, so don't gotta be everything (which be the beauty of course of pvp-teamplay -- and such a cool rak deserves a cool pic, right (cos as they say, a pic is worth a 1,000 mages in pain -- enjoy!
Click Here _________________ "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good [people] to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke, Philosopher and Politician (1729-1797)
Edited By TyrTemplar on 10/03/07 04:55
Quote: Posted 10/03/07 01:48 (GMT) -- WhiZard Note that the items were never unequipped but rather the inventory was replaced.
Gear is unequipped and then reequipped (the gear that merges, that is) when you shift. In fact, you end up "losing" bonus spells from a gear enhanced casting stat when you shift. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
My point was that the inventory being replaced is the cause of the momentary stat decrease and not an action of unequipping. Once you get your new inventory the properties are then applied to the skin, but there is no reequipping of gear while shifted as many items have their properties converged to one item (the skin) and the ability increase acts as if it were one item rather than many items reequipped.
Of course this is all technical jargon. Your point about a momentary loss of item properties is correct.
I also agree with Kail. I suspect (have not tested this theory) that any OnEquipp() script on those items would fire if you shift and unshift while it's equipped.
*puts mod hat*
Move any topic not related to the actual build, into it's own thread in the discussion area please.
I decided to do a 1.69 revamping. Not much changes in this build except a greater emphasis on the Rak Shape. As many previous comments were/are unapplicable I'll list the features that were questioned.
*Rakasha Shifted spells have a caster level of 25 (the number of monk levels as monk was taken on character level one). *Icestorm has unlimited casting as the Rak shape has a permanent duration. *Item merges (especially immunity to death magic) are critical for this build to avoid blessed bolts. *This form has a +49 bonus to turn resistance, (+24 vs. planar turning), this means that a level 60 monster (higher if not pure cleric) with planar turning would be needed to turn this creature. *Monk speed (80%) when combined with haste is more than 300% normal speed (300% normal speed is twice the speed of a hasted creature).
Outside the Natural - Druid(5), Shifter(10), Monk(25) Human, Lawful Neutral PvM/PvP, Level 40 Theme Build (Highest SR epic shape)
Hitpoints: 440 Max (336 Average) (Shifts can increase the constitution and add temporary hit points) Skillpoints: 301 Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 26/33/20 Rakshasa: 28/35/28
Saving Throw bonuses: +6 vs spells (spellcraft), immunity to mind spells, (+3 vs spells Rakshasa). BAB: 25/22/19/16/13 Rakshasa (33/28/23) Ranged AB: 34 AC (naked): 31, Rak: 49 +3 to AC from barkskin 1d4 +1 to strength with bulls strength SR: 49 Infinite IceStorm: 10d6 cold, 3d6 bludgeoning, SR penetration: 29 + 1d20. Speed increase: 80%
Changes from previous: Swapped Disarm and Blind Fight (yes the standard must have) for Penetration Feats and Brew Potion (to be used in shifted form).
Tactics: Run and snipe with ice storm. You have infinite time, so maneuver well, use potions, and you won't need to worry about resting or negative effects. Avoid prolonged fighting with archers.
, along w. those immunities is alls in all pretty cool, I agree; should make for a welcome addition to any team: yep, raks are cool, and even nicer w. the speed/empty body thing. 
