Harper Force Recon - Ranger 25 / Rogue 10/ Harper Scout 5
Human (well Marine but close enough), Chaotic Good


STR: 14 (27)
DEX: 14 (16)
CON: 12
WIS: 12 (13)
INT: 16
CHA: 8


Hitpoints: 380
Skillpoints: 396
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 22/19/22
Saving Throw bonuses: D. Eye +2 Saving vs Traps; L's Heart, +2 to mind affecting spells, Tymora's Smile, +2 to all saving throws for 5 turns.
BAB: 29
AB: +38/+33/+28/+23
AC (naked): 25

Spells: Ranger level 3. Could add one to wisdom to get level 4 spells but this would be more to have an even number than anything as I am not so excited about 4th level spells.

SKILLS
Create Traps: 43(48)
Disable Traps: 43(48)
Discipline: 42(50)
Hide: 43(46)
Listen: 42(45)
Move Silently: 43(46)
Search: 43(46)
Set Traps: 43(48)
Tumble: 40(43)
UMD: 43(42)
Lore: 6(9)
Persuade: 8(7)
leftover points: 0


LEVELING GUIDE
01: Rogue 1: Power Attack, Cleave
02: Ranger 1: FE 1 (Mostly CI creatures could change for different worlds)
03: Ranger 2: WF: Battle Axe *
04: Ranger 3: Str +1 (Str=15)
05: Ranger 4
06: Ranger 5: Knock Down, FE 2
07: Rogue 2
08: Ranger 6: Str +1 (Str=16)
09: Ranger 7: Improved Knock Down
10: Ranger 8
11: Ranger 9
12: Ranger 10: IC: Battleaxe, FE 3, Wis +1, (Wis=13)
13: Rogue 3
14: Ranger 11
15: Ranger 12 : Alertness
16: Ranger 13: Str +1 (Str=17)
17: Rogue 4:
18: Ranger 14: Iron Will
19: Ranger 15: FE 4
20: Ranger 16: Str +1 (Str=18)
21: Harper Scout 1: EWF: Battleaxe, Great Dex I, (Dex=15)
22: Rogue 5
23: Ranger 17
24: Ranger 18: Epic Prowess, Str +1 (Str=19)
25: Ranger 19
26: Ranger 20: FE 5
27: Rogue 6: Great Str I (Str=20)
28: Harper Scout 2: Str +1 (Str=21)
29: Ranger 21
30: Ranger 22: Bane of Enemies
31: Harper Scout 3
32: Rogue 7: Str +1 (Str 22)
33: Harper Scout 4: Great Str II (Str 23)
34: Harper Scout 5: Great Dex II (Dex=16)
35: Ranger 23: FE6
36: Ranger 24: Great Str III, Str +1 (Str 25)
37: Rogue 8
38: Rogue 9
39: Ranger 25: FE 7, Great Str IV, Str =26
40: Rogue 10: Crippling Strike, Str +1 (Str =27)

* WF/EWF could be dual hand axes or whatever. I chose the Battle Axe so that anything light, or worth the penalty, could be in the other hand. UMD is very high so outside of Exotic weapons many could be used.

The point of this build is to figure what the Harper Scout's would send in to check up on Undead, Constructions, Miscreants, and other strangeness. I wanted to see if I could build a Ranger that could do almost everything a Rogue could do and not be dexterity based. It is not an uber build but as often is the case with Rangers there is more than meets the eye. It can do many things and use almost all of the Ranger skills better than almost all rangers without any magically enhanced items at all. It can handle setting epic traps, it can be a pretty good archer with two cat's spells and the ability to make potions, it can stand on it's own in melee and even has a few tricks of it's own.

Problems. 1) Initial stats are poor. I would much rather have gone with 14/14/14/14/14/8 but I needed the initial skill boost and every single point after that. 2) Low hitpoints. 3) Not much str for a str based ranger. 4) Rogue skills are spread quite thin. 5) No crafting trap skills. 6) I wish I could build this as an Elf but every skill point is needed and there would be exp penalties.

I designed this build to be played rather than tweak out maximum abilities for the 40th level. (Except of course Rogue level 10.) Any advice which could make this better would be appreciated. Don't be subtle.

Thanks to all on the forums for helping me learn more about playing the game well and in a more interesting way. Thanks especially to Kail, Cinnibar, Grizzled Dwarflord, Syrath, and Mithrades . I hope they continue to forgive my foolish mistakes, questions, and lack of ability to spell their names correctly. Thanks also to many others whom I have failed to remember.

Touched up format - Kail Pendragon

Edited By Kail Pendragon on 10/10/07 18:25

oops. Omit the create traps item on the list. Sorry for the mistake.

If I get this character figured out I do have a good story to go along with him.
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Come on, you sons of b*tches! Do you want to live forever? Why have STR end at 27? I would leave it at 26 and raise WIS to 14. You might not be that impressed with the level 4 spells, but it brings more to the build than a STR of 27. It will also get you another point to your Will save. You are right. It might be better to raise wisdom earlier to 14. That way wisdom determined things will benefit. And maybe polymorphing could be used somehow. The umber hulk has true seeing which might be useful.
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Come on, you sons of b*tches! Do you want to live forever? Isnt freedom a fantastic spell for one who wishes to move about freely?
And isnt another +10 to hide (mass- and camouflage stack) a good add as well, against all those True-seeing folks? (considering modified +50 spot as it often is)

I'd take lv 4 spells at least, and polymorph when you want something special. Troll for some rapid regen while running away from your enemies and find somewhere to hide, and such.

But being the ranger fan I am, I actually like this, an impressive array of skills, and it seems very playable. I think I'd take shortswords since I love dual wield for some reason, but thats just me...

Normally this one would wear studded armor for the +3 dex modifier, but he can use padded for some time of day with both cat's grace on for another +5 to modifier (fills padded armour dex bonus). Not sure how long the HS cats lasts tho. A few comments from an old passerby:

1. Level 22 you have Rogue2. It should be Rogue5.

2. Starting Intelligence: I would suggest making this 14 and add 2 to Wisdom and 2 to Con. This gives you +1 Will Saves, 4th level Spells, 40 HPS, +1 Fort Save, +1Listen/Spot skills, and the ability to raise Str to 28 for +1AB and damage. I'll show you how to get those 43 skill points back.

3. Search: You can stop at around 21 Search. Given the take 20 and +2 Int modifier, you should be able to spot even Epic Traps which have a 43DC. This will give you back 22 skill points.

4a. Harper Scout Bonus Feats: you can lower 2 of your other skills by 10 (say Listen and Craft Trap) and use the HS bonus feats for Epic Skill Foci. End result, you have the same skill ranks, but a better Strength, Con, Wisdom, and all the subsequent peripheral abilities.

4b. The only thing you lose is the +1 Modifier to Dex which, in the end, wasn't really helping you. Given that by the time you get those Great Dex feats you can already cast Cats Grace, cast another one that stacks, and make Cats Grace potions, the 2 Great Dex Feats don't really mean much.

5. Drop Power Attack and Cleave for Blindfighting and/or Toughness/Luck of Heroes. The character seems to have offense, he needs some defense.

Thanks for the Harper build!
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Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!

Edited By grizzled_dwarflord on 10/10/07 17:15

Quote: Posted 10/10/07 17:12 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord


A few comments from an old passerby:

1. Level 22 you have Rogue2. It should be Rogue5.

2. Starting Intelligence: I would suggest making this 14 and add 2 to Wisdom and 2 to Con. This gives you +1 Will Saves, 4th level Spells, 40 HPS, +1 Fort Save, +1Listen/Spot skills, and the ability to raise Str to 28 for +1AB and damage. I'll show you how to get those 43 skill points back.

3. Search: You can stop at around 21 Search. Given the take 20 and +2 Int modifier, you should be able to spot even Epic Traps which have a 43DC. This will give you back 22 skill points.

4a. Harper Scout Bonus Feats: you can lower 2 of your other skills by 10 (say Listen and Craft Trap) and use the HS bonus feats for Epic Skill Foci. End result, you have the same skill ranks, but a better Strength, Con, Wisdom, and all the subsequent peripheral abilities.

4b. The only thing you lose is the +1 Modifier to Dex which, in the end, wasn't really helping you. Given that by the time you get those Great Dex feats you can already cast Cats Grace, cast another one that stacks, and make Cats Grace potions, the 2 Great Dex Feats don't really mean much.

5. Drop Power Attack and Cleave for Blindfighting and/or Toughness/Luck of Heroes. The character seems to have offense, he needs some defense.

Thanks for the Harper build!

Dear Grizzled. Thanks for your advice. I have played rogues too often and am used to plenty of skill points. You are right about the dex points. All I really need that for is to hit something with a ranged weapon when the need arises and for setting epic traps. With 14 which can be boosted to up quickly with two cat's graces and making potions I should be set. Also, I have one with the land which adds four to set trap and move silently.


I didn't like starting with 16 for intelligence but couldn't figure a way around it. Now I am starting to see how to get things going a little better. I do have a soft spot for cleave and power attack. (Quite nice if you have knocked someone down) But your point is well taken. It is a weakness we former Marines have. Do you have a good defensive strategy. Yes, hit them harder.

And thanks for picking out the typo. He is not going to redo level 2 in the middle of the game for upsetting the rogues guild.
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Come on, you sons of b*tches! Do you want to live forever?
Quote: Posted 10/10/07 17:12 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord

3. Search: You can stop at around 21 Search. Given the take 20 and +2 Int modifier, you should be able to spot even Epic Traps which have a 43DC. This will give you back 22 skill points.
Search is not a take 20 skill though. You'll spot those traps sooner or later, granted, but you have to be careful cause you'll need to wait for a high d20 roll in the case of epic traps.
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They can't stop us
Let them try
For Heavy Metal
We will die
Quote: Posted 10/10/07 18:30 (GMT) -- Kail Pendragon

Quote: Posted 10/10/07 17:12 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord

3. Search: You can stop at around 21 Search. Given the take 20 and +2 Int modifier, you should be able to spot even Epic Traps which have a 43DC. This will give you back 22 skill points.
Search is not a take 20 skill though. You'll spot those traps sooner or later, granted, but you have to be careful cause you'll need to wait for a high d20 roll in the case of epic traps.

Yep, forgot about that. It's a d20 that only gets rolled once a round in passive mode, but rolled twice a round on Active Detect Mode.
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Ariel, Ookla, RIDE! Thanks to Kail and Grizzled for the advice. I will start with 14/14/14/14/14/8 and work around the skills as shown. Also, I think I will drop KD and IKD for Dev Critical. I will lose one AB but I can pick critical immune types for my favorite enemies + humans. One AB and IKD is something which is not easily lost but DV Critical is quite nice and it make s the build pretty strong with all types of enemies. Also, I will add Luck of the Heroes and Blind Fight.

Should I post the revised build here or on a new topic?
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Come on, you sons of b*tches! Do you want to live forever?
Quote: Posted 10/11/07 14:31 (GMT) -- Beetlenut

Thanks to Kail and Grizzled for the advice. I will start with 14/14/14/14/14/8 and work around the skills as shown. Also, I think I will drop KD and IKD for Dev Critical. I will lose one AB but I can pick critical immune types for my favorite enemies + humans. One AB and IKD is something which is not easily lost but DV Critical is quite nice and it make s the build pretty strong with all types of enemies. Also, I will add Luck of the Heroes and Blind Fight.
Well, if you add Dev Crit then you have to keep Power Attack, Cleave and also add Great Cleave. While Dev Crit is worth it, keep in mind that many don't use it and many PWs have nerfed it.

Quote: Should I post the revised build here or on a new topic?
I would send a mod a revised version and request them to cut and paste to the original.
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Ariel, Ookla, RIDE! Thanks. Good point about the PW. It is not an anaemic build at lower levels but things really come together at the end. If it could not be played well in PWs it would not be much use. Accordingly, I will draw up two versions. One with Dev Crit and one with KD and IKD. Or I could simply draw up one and add notes.

And thanks to all for those who have posted builds. It is more work than I realized. And without having looked at other builds my own poor attempts would be much poorer.
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