Rogue/FTR/CoT is a great class combo, we all know it. This time I wanted to have a versatile build, with high defenses, which performs equally well both ranged and melee, with good saves and which is lotsa fun to play. This build is faring fairly well in one hard MP environment, I'm very satisfied with it.
Halfling was chosen because of +2/+3 AB (+2 Dex, +1 small size, +1 throwing weapons) and +1 AC (+2 Dex, +1 small size, -1 medium shield). As said, I wanted the guy to have a presence in both ranged and melee, therefore I had him specialize in both sling and shortsword.
I didn't go for dual wielding cause I wanted the saves and the HPs (and an extra crit range on the sling) and I focused on the defensive side of the build. But you can get it in, if you want to (go with daggers as your melee weapon of choice then).
Similarly, I didn't get KD/IKD because I pictured this as a ranged fighter which can melee pretty well although the latter is not his specialty. There's space for the feats if you drop, for example, the save boosters.
CoT lvls pump the saves in the good to (unnecessarily) amazing (Ref) region.
ED is basically a must in my Dex builds and it is achieved at 24th lvl. You'll have to move it up at 27th lvl once 1.69 comes out. That said, you can also go with a FTR 5/Cot 7/Rogue 8 preepic and get +1 AB at the cost of -1 to all saves (it will force ED at 27th lvl btw).
Crippling Strike at 40th lvl is just the icing on the cake.
Skill selection is tweakable, of course, the one presented here is thought with WoG (and my own playstyle) in mind (check my sig).
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Holy Slinger of Doom - Rogue(16), Fighter(10), Champion of Torm(14) Halfling, any non evil alignment PvM, playable 1-40
SKILLS Craft Trap 8(10), Disable Trap 43(47), Hide 43(55), Move Silently 41(55), Open Lock 23(35), Search 21(23), Set Trap 31(45), Tumble 40(52), UMD 36(35), no points leftover
LEVELING GUIDE 01: Rogue(1): Point Blank Shot 02: Rogue(2): {Evasion} 03: Fighter(1): Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Sling 04: Fighter(2): DEX+1, Weapon Focus: Shortsword, (DEX=19) 05: Fighter(3) 06: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization: Shortsword, Weapon Specialization: Sling 07: Rogue(3): {Uncanny Dodge I} 08: Rogue(4): DEX+1, (DEX=20) 09: Champion of Torm(1): Rapid Shot 10: Champion of Torm(2): Blind Fight 11: Champion of Torm(3): {Smite Evil} 12: Champion of Torm(4): DEX+1, Iron Will, Called Shot, (DEX=21) 13: Rogue(5) 14: Champion of Torm(5) 15: Champion of Torm(6): Great Fortitude, Improved Critical: Sling 16: Rogue(6): DEX+1, (DEX=22) 17: Rogue(7) 18: Rogue(8): Toughness 19: Rogue(9) 20: Rogue(10): DEX+1, Improved Evasion, (DEX=23) 21: Rogue(11): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=24) 22: Champion of Torm(7) 23: Rogue(12) 24: Rogue(13): DEX+1, Epic Dodge, Defensive Roll, (DEX=25) 25: Champion of Torm(8): Epic Weapon Focus: Sling 26: Champion of Torm(9) 27: Champion of Torm(10): Great Dexterity II, Epic Weapon Specialization: Sling, (DEX=26) 28: Rogue(14): DEX+1, (DEX=27) 29: Fighter(5) 30: Fighter(6): Great Dexterity III, Epic Weapon Focus: Shortsword, (DEX=28) 31: Fighter(7) 32: Fighter(8): DEX+1, Epic Weapon Specialization: Shortsword, (DEX=29) 33: Rogue(15): Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=30) 34: Fighter(9) 35: Fighter(10): Armor Skin 36: Champion of Torm(11): DEX+1, Great Dexterity V, (DEX=32) 37: Champion of Torm(12) 38: Champion of Torm(13) 39: Champion of Torm(14): Great Dexterity VI, Epic Prowess, (DEX=33) 40: Rogue(16): DEX+1, Crippling Strike, (DEX=34)
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Advantages •Good ranged and melee AB •Good AC, doesn't give it up to go ranged •WS/EWS in both sling and shortsword, they greatly help dmg output in a dexer •Epic Dodge early on •Good saves •UMD •Epic trap skills •Good HPs for an epic dodger. •8d6 SA •Crippling Strike (late)
Weaknesses •Not enough skillpoints to get all the skills I wanted •No dual wielding, but you can get it if you want to •Dmg output vs crit immunes can still be an issue... use alternative tactics (man, ain't you a rogue? ) •The will save could be better •No CHA for CoT special abilities •No KD/IKD feats (drop some save boosters if you want them)
Feedback and constructive criticism is, as usual, greatly appreciated. _________________ Looking for a realm of adventure? Check out World of Greyhawk, you won't regret it.
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 03/17/08 19:48
AB is nice indeed.
Quote: Similarly, I didn't get KD/IKD because I pictured this as a ranged fighter which can melee pretty well although the latter is not his specialty. There's space for the feats if you drop, for example, the save boosters.
Just when I was about to say IKD would be a good choice... your damage without sneak isn't too good, I can't believe that with so much Fighter and CoT you don't get IKD, your choice I guess.
You know, I believe you never get as much skillpoints as you want, so take more INT or something
How can 44ab be great?
Quote: Posted 03/18/08 09:29 (GMT) -- bloodymerc
How can 44ab be great?
That's unbuffed. That's a great AB, given his other talents.
My only suggestion is to move Epic Dodge to Level 27 in order to make the build legal for 1.69. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Aye ,but he got no self buffs,so even with max dex bonus he still has to get magic ab bonus of items and teambuffs,unless its uber high magic environment.. I.e. With max dex +5weap and bless aid pot ab is 57,58.now thats low
Quote: Posted 03/18/08 09:29 (GMT) -- bloodymerc
How can 44ab be great?
Kail calls the AB good. Thax says the AB is nice. Neither one said the AB was great. And for not having any self buffing ability at all, except by using scrolls with UMD or potions, it is a pretty good AB.
Rogue/Fighter/CoT is a pretty popular, solid build. A lot of us that post here post builds for PvM not PvP. Is there a different way you would make a build using these 3 classes? Or, do you just prefer to make every build using Cleric so you can self buff yourself to insanely high ABs?
In my usual numbers, less than 40 is low AB, 45 is good AB, you will hit often with that much, and more than 50 is just powerful, but I haven't seen any unbuffed AB over 50 that doesn't uses Red Dragon Disciple, Weapon Master or Arcane Archer, the regular classes just won't reach it.
As for buffs, there are lots of builds that can't use buffs because its classes don't give buffs, if we were so strict then all the builds lose against a Cleric or a Sorcerer, but you missed this important thing I'll quote below:
Quote: PvM, playable 1-40
So sure, he's not a PvP machine and he'll get owned against your uber builds but that's just not the point all the time.
If you think that he needs a high magical environment to have high AB then the enemies will also have high ACs there. Compare unbuffed AB against unbuffed AC of another build that can't buff himself and you'll find that 45 is plenty high. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Quote: Similarly, I didn't get KD/IKD because I pictured this as a ranged fighter which can melee pretty well although the latter is not his specialty. There's space for the feats if you drop, for example, the save boosters.
Just when I was about to say IKD would be a good choice... your damage without sneak isn't too good, I can't believe that with so much Fighter and CoT you don't get IKD, your choice I guess.
Yes, as I said it was a conscious choice. I wanted good saves and I wanted to focus on the defensive side. Also, as the "slinger" in the build's name suggests, I intended the build to be played mainly as a ranged specialist which is not afraid to enter melee when the situation requires it.
This said, I have played other sneaker builds without KD/IKD and I've found I didn't really need it. With wands/scrolls of Darkness (or Shadow Conjuration for the higher caster lvl), Invisibility and Impr. Invis, corner sneaking, meat shields (be they party memebers or summoned critters, traps, etc. I can do without it.
Anyhow, if one wants it, it's pretty easy to grab it: just change a couple of feats. Some other features are easily tweakable, as I indicated. That' sthe beauty of it, it's a solid build you can tweak to better fit your playstyle/environment.
Quote: You know, I believe you never get as much skillpoints as you want, so take more INT or something
That's true: wizard caster builds with rogue lvls or high rogue builds are probably the only cases when I'm satisfied skillpoint wise. I already almost always go for 14 INT, more just gets too expensive (wizzies apart). Ah, now that I think about skillpoints, I wish bards and rangers got 6 pints/lvl!
Quote: Posted 03/18/08 12:56 (GMT) -- bloodymerc
Aye ,but he got no self buffs,so even with max dex bonus he still has to get magic ab bonus of items and teambuffs,unless its uber high magic environment.. I.e. With max dex +5weap and bless aid pot ab is 57,58.now thats low
Personally, I find this statement ludicrous. First 58 buffed (but not yet capped) AB is far from low, second builds are not made up by just AB (which btw I called good and not great).
If the only thing you care about is AB, then you are bound to build exclusively AAs. Otherwise, widen your horizons and examine the different strengths and weaknesses of a build and the different possible intended tactics before commenting on something that, evidently, you know nothing about. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Solid build it is. This combo is a PvM machine for sure, and easily playable for sure.
Three things I must comment. First the AB-issue. 44/45 is good AB in low-med magic setting, but might be abit low in a high magic setting, not the other way around. AC grows more than AB for every + you put in there.
Secong thing. Let me know your thoughts around the choice of CoT 14. Why not drop 4 of those levels for fighter, rogue or both? You gain more than you lose IMO.
Third thing. I love the added playability skillpoints get you, and in a bard or rogue build it's pretty near impossible to get enough skillpoints for everything that is availible.
I thought the guild was flooded with this class-combo, though. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Quote: Posted 03/21/08 22:41 (GMT) -- Grimnir77 Three things I must comment. First the AB-issue. 44/45 is good AB in low-med magic setting, but might be abit low in a high magic setting, not the other way around. AC grows more than AB for every + you put in there.
Considering that without RDD, WM or AA lvls the highest possible mundane ABs are 47 (HO str build) and 50 (halfling dexer) 44/45 is to be considered good. Otherwise, we should limit ourselves to WMs, RDDs and AAs.
Besides a sufficiently high AC will make the AB score trivial (you'll need a natural 20 no matter your AB); so, high magic doesn't really require a high AB, IMO.
Quote: Secong thing. Let me know your thoughts around the choice of CoT 14. Why not drop 4 of those levels for fighter, rogue or both? You gain more than you lose IMO.
I know, but consider that this specific buil dis the result of a few "compromises" while keeping defense paramount. I wanted to pump the saves so I went for the 14 CoT lvls over other alternative solutions. Now, -2 to saves won't kill the build so one can go for FTR 14/CoT 10 easily and grab one more feat, or go FTR 12/Rogue 18, or FTR 10/Rogue 20... to be tweaked as desired. FTR/CoT/Rogue is a very versatile and adaptable build type.
Quote: Third thing. I love the added playability skillpoints get you, and in a bard or rogue build it's pretty near impossible to get enough skillpoints for everything that is availible.
I thought the guild was flooded with this class-combo, though.
FTR/CoT/Rogue have been done before to say the least, but there was no such slinger as this... I just wanted to add a versatile and balanced range/melee specialist with good defenses. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
A little late to the party (so sue me, I've been away), but I like this build. As for the AB issue, even though it's been addressed, I'll add my two cents as well. A raw 44 AB is damned good for a character that can't self buff. As others have pointed out, the only way you're going to get it much higher and still retain a character that's actually playable from level 1 is to use RDD, WM, and/or AA. Or build yourself a Cleric. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 03/18/08 12:56 (GMT) -- bloodymerc
Aye ,but he got no self buffs,so even with max dex bonus he still has to get magic ab bonus of items and teambuffs,unless its uber high magic environment.. I.e. With max dex +5weap and bless aid pot ab is 57,58.now thats low
merc, i dont mean to single you out. I have been dealing with similar players on other forums. The thing to do would be to sit down and take a character with 16 rogue lvls (3/4 ab progression) and try to get higher than 44! it is hard to do. This is EPIC ab, whether you see it or not. Its just that these guys are too modest to toot their own horns. _________________
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