The idea here is simple: a Monk with a useful SR score and decent combat prowess.
While AB is lowish by my standards (I don't like anything below 40), it is not that bad, especially considering the Monk attack progression.
An SR score of 54 which cannot be lowered in any way means that lvl 40 mages without SP feats will be penetrating your SR only 35% of the times and conversely one with all the SP feats will fail 35% of the time (and how many lvl 40 mages have all if any of the SP feats?). Against lesser casters, you are gonna be near to totally immune.
Uber speed is there, together with concealment, mind immunity and fist back up. The build also gets epic trap skills (disable, set and search) and UMD for added value.
AC would be significantly better in a DEX version (+7) coming together with +1 AB, but dmg output would then be a significant issue, UD would come very late and one loses a preepic feat (namely Great Fortitude for -2 Fort save). Also, 32 naked AC is not that bad, really.
The skill distribution here is ignoring Discipline, but that can be easily adjusted to one's own preference. If you wonder why I chose not to have it, it's because I use KD immunity gear with this guy.
Going unarmed is a possibility, although it means two less apr at the two highest ABs and the loss of the bracers/gloves item slot (which must be used for your "weapon") and weapon buffs (from scrolls and/or party members). It frees up 3 feats preepic and it makes possible to go either with a 14 CON and a 14 DEX (+40 HPs, +1 Fort Save, -1 Ref Save, -1 AC/Ref save and one extra epic feat from the loss of the DEX increment in favor of STR) or with a 15 STR and 14 DEX (+1 AB/dmg, -1 AC/Ref save). Personally, I prefer using kamas as the main weapon and go unarmed for backup.
Here we go, let's take a look at it:
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Grand Master of Flowers - Monk(36), Fighter(2), Rogue(2) Human, any lawful PvM, playable 1-40
Advantages •SR 54, untouchable by any means •Good naked AC •Mind Immunity •7 APR, 8 flurrying •Decent saves •UMD •Epic trap skills •Empty Body 2/day, 36 rounds duration each •+120% speed! •20/+1 DR •Unarmed backup, with 36 SF/day at 32 DC
Weaknesses •Low AB •Not enough skillpoints to get all the skills I wanted •UMD and trap skills come late though they would help a lot from the scratch (1st rogue lvl can be moved preepic at the cost of -1 AB) •Consequence of the former mainly, a little pain to lvl up solo at lower lvls.
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Feedback and constructive criticism is, as usual, gladly appreciated. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Edited By Grimnir77 on 04/12/08 08:50
Yeah kamas rule.
Well actually the fists are not a bad change, they deal 1d20 and allow you to take less DEX for more STR, one of the worse problems with high SR Monk is that they don't deal enough damage to breach Premonitions, and then a caster could start casting summons and you don't ever hit enough damage to break their Concentration. Mestil's Acid Sheath and Elemental Shield also work great against high APR low damage enemies.
I lost my faith in this kind of builds after I made my own untouchable high SR and AC Monk, they don't beat meleers, they don't beat rangers, they definitely don't beat divine casters (Cleric buffs up and Druid shift, you're not even close to win) and arcane casters use defense shields, summons or sometimes even run (Greater Sanctuary is a real bugger).
An idea popped up when I saw your build, since you actually have a STR score of 28, which is nice, what would you think about taking Dev Crit? or does it lower your SR too much? (it'd be a lot easier to take without the Two Weapon Fighting feats I guess) I do believe Dev Crit to be effective against casters given their usual low fortitude saves, it could be worth it. _________________
Quote: Posted 12/19/06 19:54 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Thax the Shadow Dragon sez: MONKS USE KAMAS. Just ask him.
Yet they make you lose 1 equipment slot, don't have an enhancement bonus, cannot benefit from weapon buffs and are not keen.
Once you factor in a reasonable equipment and weapon buffs from party members or scrolls, kama get the advantage. With +5 kamas, keen (or keened), +2d6+10 el dmg (+1d6 from the weapon +1d6 +10 from Darkfire) your dmg output is always higher than fists with gloves +5 with +1d6 el dmg... and you have one free gear slot. Besides, apart from the weapon innate +1d6 el dmg all the other boni on the kamas can (or are) from weapon buffs something that cannot be done for fists. Even removing the innate +1d6 el dmg from kamas doesn't qualitatively change the result if you keep the buffs. If I considered the fist user to have +1 AB and +1 dmg from +2 STR and we are flurrying, then unarmed has a slight advantage (around +10%, circa +2 dmg output/round with 16 unarmed vs 14 kamas) for AB-AC = -20. Maxing out STR and adding other dmg boni (bard song, prayer, whatever) can widen the range of unarmed advantage to the values AB-AC = -19 to -21, with the central value at around +20% (+4.5 dmg output difference, 18.5 vs 23) and the side ones at around +6-8% (1 or 2 dmg output difference). For very high ACs (AB-AC < -21) kamas are again superior (same as with AB-AC > -19)
In conclusion, provided access to reasonable gear and/or weapon buffs, kamas are superior to unarmed but for very restricted and specific situations (Maxed out dmg output and AB-AC = -19 to -21) and even then the inferiority is marginal.
Fists do make a decent backup weapon to use monk special powers and/or against slashing resistance.
Quote: they deal 1d20 and allow you to take less DEX for more STR, one of the worse problems with high SR Monk is that they don't deal enough damage to breach Premonitions, and then a caster could start casting summons and you don't ever hit enough damage to break their Concentration. Mestil's Acid Sheath and Elemental Shield also work great against high APR low damage enemies.
That's why I went the STR route, you need to deliver dmg to be of any use.
Quote: I lost my faith in this kind of builds after I made my own untouchable high SR and AC Monk, they don't beat meleers, they don't beat rangers, they definitely don't beat divine casters (Cleric buffs up and Druid shift, you're not even close to win) and arcane casters use defense shields, summons or sometimes even run (Greater Sanctuary is a real bugger).
Something I did not say, while this build can be played solo, it is supposed to be played in a party environment both for ease of lvling at the lower lvls and for access to buffs (gotta love those clerics). Your high resistance to spells (if not straight immunity) and acceptable fighting capabilities together with uber speed make you a good asset to any party. So it's PvM, preferably party environment build.
Quote: An idea popped up when I saw your build, since you actually have a STR score of 28, which is nice, what would you think about taking Dev Crit? or does it lower your SR too much? (it'd be a lot easier to take without the Two Weapon Fighting feats I guess) I do believe Dev Crit to be effective against casters given their usual low fortitude saves, it could be worth it.
Dev Crit with a 19-20 crit range and a lowish AB doesn't thrill me, but I guess it's a possibility, although it requires freeing up two epic feats (Toughness and Great Fortitude) and two preepic ones (ISR and AS). If going for Dev Crit I'd keep kamas which can be keen(ed) for +1 to the crit range and grant +2 apr (again more crits), to maximize crit chances.
I just don't usually go for Dev Crit at all. For those that want it the option is there, as indicated.
Thanks for the feedback, Thax. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 04/13/08 16:33
Have you considered maybe Monk 36 Rogue 3 Wiz 1? Uncanny might help a little. You also mentioned several times that you're not happy with the AB of the build, which is a problem that I would think True Strike would help, at least a little.
Ithacan made one like that for the Badlands, and it's pretty solid. Been thinking about copying it one of these days >.>
Quote: Posted 04/13/08 18:23 (GMT) -- Hiwatt
Have you considered maybe Monk 36 Rogue 3 Wiz 1? Uncanny might help a little. You also mentioned several times that you're not happy with the AB of the build, which is a problem that I would think True Strike would help, at least a little.
Ithacan made one like that for the Badlands, and it's pretty solid. Been thinking about copying it one of these days >.>
FTR 2 = 2 extra feats in a feat starved build. TS can be used from (scribed) scrolls together with clerical buffs. I'm not that happy with the AB but it's "just" 2 points lower than what I consider acceptable (40). Considering the party environment nature of the build, I's rather have the extra feats.
Regarding UD, one can get it with 2 Assassin lvls in stead of the 2 Rogue lvls. It costs a few (8) skillpoints and requires an evil alignment. Otherwise Rogue 3/Monk 35 for -10% speed and -1 SR to get UD. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Quote: Once you factor in a reasonable equipment and weapon buffs from party members or scrolls, kama get the advantage. With +5 kamas, keen (or keened), +2d6+10 el dmg (+1d6 from the weapon +1d6 +10 from Darkfire) your dmg output is always higher than fists with gloves +5 with +1d6 el dmg... and you have one free gear slot. Besides, apart from the weapon innate +1d6 el dmg all the other boni on the kamas can (or are) from weapon buffs something that cannot be done for fists. Even removing the innate +1d6 el dmg from kamas doesn't qualitatively change the result if you keep the buffs. If I considered the fist user to have +1 AB and +1 dmg from +2 STR and we are flurrying, then unarmed has a slight advantage (around +10%, circa +2 dmg output/round with 16 unarmed vs 14 kamas) for AB-AC = -20. Maxing out STR and adding other dmg boni (bard song, prayer, whatever) can widen the range of unarmed advantage to the values AB-AC = -19 to -21, with the central value at around +20% (+4.5 dmg output difference, 18.5 vs 23) and the side ones at around +6-8% (1 or 2 dmg output difference). For very high ACs (AB-AC < -21) kamas are again superior (same as with AB-AC > -19)
Heh, you wrote too much, I know all that, I always use kamas with my Cleric/Monk builds, but it's all environmental in the end IMO, because you don't get buffs per se, you get UMD, fists work better if you can't get those scrolls, the rest was overextended explanation.
You could actually just lower 1 Monk for 1 Rogue and get Uncanny, but you only have 16 DEX anyway, it's AC for SR I guess, though you would get another skilldumping level with 3 Rogue levels. _________________
Quote: Posted 12/19/06 19:54 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Thax the Shadow Dragon sez: MONKS USE KAMAS. Just ask him.
Heh, you wrote too much, I know all that, I always use kamas with my Cleric/Monk builds, but it's all environmental in the end IMO, because you don't get buffs per se, you get UMD, fists work better if you can't get those scrolls, the rest was overextended explanation.
If you party up with a cleric it's not enviromental anymore Remmeber that DnD is supposed to be played in a party and this is a party build. Besides my environmetal assumptions are of the proper and balanced kind
Quote: You could actually just lower 1 Monk for 1 Rogue and get Uncanny, but you only have 16 DEX anyway, it's AC for SR I guess, though you would get another skilldumping level with 3 Rogue levels.
Or go with 2 lvls of Assassin. Anyhow it would come pretty late in the build... unless one goes for Monk 35/Assassin 3. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Nice character, and everything I had written in this here upper part is edited away after I read your intro more thoroughly. *sigh*
Going the Dex route shouldn't be tossed aside either, since you're talking the party route. It let's you have a nice AB with a ranged weapon(for the mages damage shields). Stunning fist should be the opener vs any mage though. Nice SR build. Not totally resistant, but you keep some combat ability. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Remmeber that DnD is supposed to be played in a party and this is a party build. Besides my environmetal assumptions are of the proper and balanced kind 