The concept of the build was to create an undispellable caster (umm…let’s forget about Mord Disjunction for a while, ok? Thanks!), who has good spell potential, and can stand his ground in a fight. The result is the Champion of Archons. I hope I get comments and ideas about what should I change in the build to make it better.
I introduce you the
Champion of Archons
Race: Human Alignment: Any lawful Playable: 1-40 PvM Classes: Cleric 35 / Fighter 2 / Monk 3 Hit points: 484 base / 564 self-buffed / 724 max possible
01: Fighter(1): Toughness, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Blind Fight 02: Cleric(1) [Domains: Trickery and 1. Travel if your server does not have perma haste items 2. War if it does. The calculations were made with Trickery + War domains] 03: Cleric(2): Called Shot 04: Cleric(3): WIS+1, (WIS=17) 05: Cleric(4) 06: Cleric(5): Zen Archery 07: Cleric(6) 08: Cleric(7): WIS+1, (WIS=18) 09: Cleric(8): Point Blank Shot 10: Cleric(9) 11: Cleric(10) 12: Cleric(11): WIS+1, Rapid Shot, (WIS=19) 13: Cleric(12) 14: Cleric(13) 15: Cleric(14): Spell Focus: Evocation* 16: Cleric(15): WIS+1, (WIS=20) 17: Cleric(16) 18: Cleric(17): Greater Spell Focus: Evocation* 19: Cleric(18) 20: Cleric(19): WIS+1, (WIS=21) 21: Monk(1): Epic Spell Focus: Evocation*, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist} 22: Fighter(2): Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow 23: Cleric(20) 24: Cleric(21): WIS+1, Great Wisdom I, (WIS=23) 25: Cleric(22) 26: Cleric(23): Great Wisdom II, (WIS=24) 27: Monk(2): Great Wisdom III, {Deflect Arrows}, (WIS=25) 28: Cleric(24): WIS+1, (WIS=26) 29: Cleric(25) 30: Cleric(26): Great Wisdom IV, Great Wisdom V, (WIS=28) 31: Cleric(27) 32: Cleric(28): WIS+1, (WIS=29) 33: Cleric(29): Great Wisdom VI, Great Wisdom VII, (WIS=31) 34: Cleric(30) 35: Cleric(31) 36: Cleric(32): WIS+1, Great Wisdom VIII, Great Wisdom IX, (WIS=34) 37: Cleric(33) 38: Cleric(34) 39: Monk(3): Armor Skin 40: Cleric(35): WIS+1, Great Wisdom X, (WIS=36)
*You can change the Spell Focus to Conjuration for Storm of Vengeance. I simply chose Evocation for Implosion, but it is nerfed on many servers (for a good reason).
Combat abilities* (check important AB note at the end!):
AB with mundane bow w/o buffs: +41/+36/+31 AB with mundane bow with self-buff: +58/+53/+48/+58/+58 (Reason: 25 BAB 13 Wis mod 2 Owl’s Wisdom 1 WF 2 EWF 1 Bless 1 Aid 1 Prayer 2 Battletide 5 Divine Favor 5 Divine Power ============ 58 AB)
Max possible AB (+5 bow and +Wisdom equipment): +67/+62/+57/+67/+67 Rapid Shot gives +1 apr at the cost of -2 ab. That can be +65/+60/+55/+65/+65/+65 AB is +1 if enemy is within 15 feet.
Armor Class:
W/o any items, the character can achieve an AC of 55: 10 Base 2 Dex mod 4 Magical Dex mod (+2 mod from Cat’s Grace, +2 mod from Aura of Vitality) 13 Wis mod 2 Magical Wis mod (Owl’s Wisdom) 5 Armor AC (Magic Vestment) 5 Deflection AC (Shield of Faith) 8 Tumble 2 Armor Skin 4 Haste ============= 55 AC
If you go for the Improved Expertise version of the build (discussed later), this raises to 65 AC.
Sidenote: If I want to be optimistic (I always try), I can think of this AC as an ’effective AC’ of 65 / 75 in Improved Expertise mode. Reason is the negative ab modifiers – ab loss on enemy: 1 Bane 2 Doom 2 Battletide 4 Word of Faith (Blindness) 1 Bestow Curse ============= -10 enemy AB. Certainly, the enemy needs to fail the saving throws. Thanksfully, the save in most cases is a Will save. By the way, in the non-IE version, this ’effective AC’ can even be increased by using the Called Shot feat (-2 cumulative AB).
Armor Class with items (assuming +5 items and enough +Wisdom / +Dex gear) (ie. Max possible AC)
Advantages: Good AC Good AB Full range of cleric spells High spell DC 110% speed (to get out of nasty situations) Decent HP 6 attacks per round Undispellability (except Mord) SR 47
Disadvantages: Low Reflex save Less potential self buff (GMW and Darkfire can only be applied for melee weapons)
Don’t forget, he is a bloody good spellcaster! Crush your enemies with Implosion, Storm of Vengeance, Firestorm and Harm!
Improved Expertise Version
For those who think it is worth to sacrifice attack power for defense… Change the starting stats, so Con is reduced to 14, increase Int to 14 and Str to 10 [OR decrease Dex from 14 to 12, and increase Int from 12 to 14. I’m not sure about this yet – Rapid Shot needs 13 Dex, but this version loses this feat. I haven’t tried this version!]. Replace Rapid shot and Called shot with Expertise and Improved Expertise. But be aware of the fact that IE can only be used with melee weapons equipped! If you want to be the tank of the party, you cannot attack with your bow. You can still cast spells, but we all know about that little switch in the nwn script which makes IE mode to drop when casting…
Epic Spell version
This is only a small change for those servers where the Dragon Knight and Mummy has been upgraded. Drop 2 Great Wisdom feats and take Epic Spell: Dragon Knight and Epic Prowess. You lose 1 AC, 1 DC and 1 Will save, but get a draggy.
I was thinking of a few questions that could come up with the build, so a little Q&A in the end:
Q: Why Fighter and not CoT? Great Wisdom bonus feat, save boost, Divine Wrath…
A: CoT requires Weapon Focus in a MELEE weapon.
Q: Why do you take the first Monk level so late? You don't get Wisdom AC till that!
A: By taking the first Monk level pre-epic, I would lose 1 AB in the end. If you feel you can't wait till lvl 21, then take a Monk lvl pre-epic, 1 AB is the only loss.
Q: Why don't you take 4 Fighter levels pre-epic? 4 attacks per round and Weapon Specialization!
A: By having 4 Fighter levels, the build loses a cleric bonus feat and much AB! Think of it: while a Cleric 16/Fighter 4 character has 16 BAB and an attack schedule of +20/+15/+10/+5 with Divine Power, this Cleric 19/Fighter 1 has 15 BAB and an attack schedule of +20/+15/+10/+20. (If you need an explanation, go to Divine Power at NWNWiki) Yes, I lose Weapon Specialization and even EWS, but to tell the truth, I don't think that +6 dmg/hit can change the battle.
*Important AB note!
I had a little argument with the game engine. Sadly, it wins all the time, but I don’t know why! Hope somebody can explain it. It’s about the AB of the bonus attacks. I have 3 apr at +65/+60/+55. Now, Divine Power should give another attack at +65, Haste should give another attack at +65 and Rapid Shot should give another attack at +65! Instead, I get +65/+60/+55/+65/+60/+55! Any ideas?
Lastly, an advice in pre-epic levels: use Full plate mail!
Awaiting your comments!
Praetor
Edit: edited broken links _________________ "I will be the last...and you will go first!" Sarevok, Child of Bhaal
AB with mundane bow w/o buffs: +41/+36/+31 AB with mundane bow with self-buff: +58/+53/+48/+58/+58 (Reason: 25 BAB 13 Wis mod 2 Owl’s Wisdom 1 WF 2 EWF 1 Bless 1 Aid 1 Prayer 2 Battletide 5 Divine Favor 5 Divine Power ============ 58 AB)
Max possible AB (+5 bow and +Wisdom equipment): +67/+62/+57/+67/+67 Rapid Shot gives +1 apr at the cost of -2 ab. That can be +65/+60/+55/+65/+65/+65 AB is +1 if enemy is within 15 feet.
By my math, the max you can have ab wise, is +20. You give unbuffd ab of 41... how do you get 67? If your rapid shot is correct (i have no reason to assume otherwise), that means your ab would be 63?
I like the idea of the build. Very nice. _________________
I agree with avado, Storm of Vengeance rocks, it stuns great, it can deal heavy damage over time, and Evasion doesn't work against it, you should try it in your strategy as well, too bad it's conjura
Quote: Posted 08/17/08 21:20 (GMT) -- avado
By my math, the max you can have ab wise, is +20. You give unbuffd ab of 41... how do you get 67? If your rapid shot is correct (i have no reason to assume otherwise), that means your ab would be 63?
I like the idea of the build. Very nice.
At +58 AB, I'm only 15/20 till the AB cap. The following: 25 BAB 13 Wis mod 2 Owl’s Wisdom 1 WF 2 EWF =========== 43 do NOT count toward the AB cap. The remaining 15 (listed above) DO count. The 5 loss is from Greater Magic Weapon, which can only be cast on melee weapons, so I need a +5 longbow. Now I'm at the cap, but still, I can get more Wisdom equipment: +8 wisdom till the cap means +4 modifier. So: +5 longbow + 4 magical wisdom modifier = 58 + 9 = 67 _________________ "I will be the last...and you will go first!" Sarevok, Child of Bhaal
At first glance, it looks pretty solid. Zen Archery is a good route with all that WIS. That low STR makes me cringe though. I'd personally drop CON to 14 and toss those points into STR. 12 STR and 14 CON is far better than 8 STR and 16 CON, IMO.
I think I might be tempted to change the feat progression as well. I'd move Called Shot and Toughness later and take PBS and Rapid Shot earlier. (PBS at level 1, RS at level 3. Toughness at level 9 or 12 and Called Shot at level 12 or 9)
A note on your final point about the attack schedule. I don't know if it was intended, but extra attacks from sources such as Divine Power, Haste, Rapid Shot, Flurry of Blows, etc now follow the -5 iterative progression. So that's why you're seeing those extra ones at +65/+60/+55 instead of all at +65. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Quote: Posted 08/18/08 04:56 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din That low STR makes me cringe though. I'd personally drop CON to 14 and toss those points into STR. 12 STR and 14 CON is far better than 8 STR and 16 CON, IMO.
A cleric in robes can afford a str of 8 because you don't wear plate and tower at all times like most clerics do. Carrying capacity can be a problem though if you solo far into dungeons full of loot. But bags of holding or a strong henchie will fix that for you. With str 8 you can still buff up to str 20 for full effect of +5 mighty bows. _________________ I generally avoid temptation, unless I can't resist it...
Quote: That low STR makes me cringe though. I'd personally drop CON to 14 and toss those points into STR. 12 STR and 14 CON is far better than 8 STR and 16 CON, IMO.
As Mick Dagger already said, I really only need the strength to carry stuff. No Full Plate mail or Tower shield, which are the main reasons why I put points into strength if its not a strength build (Auto-still spell sorc). For a long run, yes, you can only buff your strength to a max of 13 without items, but in short term, cast a Divine Power and it is already at 18! Don't forget, AoV also gives +4 Str (it is 1 round / level though, as Div Power)
Quote: I think I might be tempted to change the feat progression as well. I'd move Called Shot and Toughness later and take PBS and Rapid Shot earlier. (PBS at level 1, RS at level 3. Toughness at level 9 or 12 and Called Shot at level 12 or 9)
Point well taken. Toughness is more useable later, and Called shot is not a so important in the beginning levels. PBS comes handy early, and RS's -2 ab can be easily compared at lvl 3 (Bless, Aid for example) for +1 apr.
Quote: A note on your final point about the attack schedule. I don't know if it was intended, but extra attacks from sources such as Divine Power, Haste, Rapid Shot, Flurry of Blows, etc now follow the -5 iterative progression. So that's why you're seeing those extra ones at +65/+60/+55 instead of all at +65.
Yes, thats what I didn't know! Thanks for clarification
Btw, I just read one of your post in the General discussions, and double-checked grizzled_dwarflord's The War Machine of Gruumsh - so another option can be for the build to take Strength domain instead of War. That way he loses some AC (2 from Cat's Grace and 2 from AoV) (also, your lose a little reputation in your party members' eyes because of dropping AoV ), but you have more Div Powers (the build doesn't have extend spell so it's useful!) and Stoneskin. So the second domain depends on personal preference _________________ "I will be the last...and you will go first!" Sarevok, Child of Bhaal
Quote: Posted 08/18/08 09:01 (GMT) -- Mick Dagger A cleric in robes can afford a str of 8 because you don't wear plate and tower at all times like most clerics do. Carrying capacity can be a problem though if you solo far into dungeons full of loot. But bags of holding or a strong henchie will fix that for you. With str 8 you can still buff up to str 20 for full effect of +5 mighty bows.
This build's likely not going to be wearing robes until level 21 (the first Monk level).
Bags of holding are not always available, nor are henchmen.
Divine Power and other spells that raise STR beyond 13 (and that's a on a good Bull's roll) are short term buffs.
Sure, you can get by with 8 STR, especially with a Cleric build, but I still think lowering CON to 14 and raising STR to 12 is a far better stat distribution. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
I agree totally with cinn on stat distribution. Infact, i think he is being alittle to easy on you! LOL
Think of it this way: you are a Cleric Bower. What on earth do you need 16 con for? Clerics have con buff spells. With II, you have 50% concealment (or whatever you care to call it). AND you are using a Bow. How many Bowers are in the front lines? This means that you could lower con to 10! Boost str to 12, move dex to 12 (if you decided to do the plate thing) and bump wisdom to 18. This would get you to 38 wis or 50 buffed fully. I play clerics exclusively, and this is how i would play the stats.
The other thing to consider is, do you really need 12 int? LOL I know for some skills rule, but clerics need only concentrate and... no epic spells, so no lore, no spellcraft (unless that is important to you). Taking monk means tumble is an option. How important is dis to a ranger? Again, i may be min/maxing ALOT but as a human at int 10 you get 3 per cleric lvl, meaning you can max con, tumble and spellcraft or lore or dis. The way i play (which is alittle aggressive me thinks) that is all i would need (UNLESS it was PRC, which changes everything (lore and spellcraft would be very important then i would need 12 to max 4 skills).
Oh, sorry mate about the ab question. When i look at unbuffed stats, which i have for years now, i have NEVER seen owl's insight as unbuffed. The last i remember it is a spell, which is a buff. It would have been much less confusing to my new parent brain (my child is now 15 days old) to have said, unbuffed is 41. +12 wis buffed fully is 67! Listing each spell always makes me suspicious that he builder is trying to hide something behind the numbers! LOL Thats just me though
I think avado answered your question like no other could...
Quote: Posted 08/18/08 18:24 (GMT) -- avado
I agree totally with cinn on stat distribution. Infact, i think he is being alittle to easy on you! LOL
Think of it this way: you are a Cleric Bower. What on earth do you need 16 con for? Clerics have con buff spells. With II, you have 50% concealment (or whatever you care to call it). AND you are using a Bow. How many Bowers are in the front lines? This means that you could lower con to 10! Boost str to 12, move dex to 12 (if you decided to do the plate thing) and bump wisdom to 18. This would get you to 38 wis or 50 buffed fully. I play clerics exclusively, and this is how i would play the stats.
Certainly, lowering Con and raising Str is an option I just said that I don't feel that I need that strength. Str/Con points can be changed without hurting the build. Though I wouldn't go for 18 Wis - I just feel that 6 points for a +1 modifier is too much for me. If I think of what is better: 18 Wis + 10 Con or 16 Wis + 14 Con + 2 points leftover, I vote for the latter
Quote: The other thing to consider is, do you really need 12 int? LOL I know for some skills rule, but clerics need only concentrate and... no epic spells, so no lore, no spellcraft (unless that is important to you). Taking monk means tumble is an option. How important is dis to a ranger? Again, i may be min/maxing ALOT but as a human at int 10 you get 3 per cleric lvl, meaning you can max con, tumble and spellcraft or lore or dis. The way i play (which is alittle aggressive me thinks) that is all i would need (UNLESS it was PRC, which changes everything (lore and spellcraft would be very important then i would need 12 to max 4 skills).
Hmm...I think you are right about that. He was started as an IE version before I found out that IE only works with melee weapons, and at this point I only lowered Int by 2 automatically. This build has enough AC in my opinion, so it something hits you, you can't do much with a 41 discipline in most cases.
Quote: Oh, sorry mate about the ab question. When i look at unbuffed stats, which i have for years now, i have NEVER seen owl's insight as unbuffed. The last i remember it is a spell, which is a buff. It would have been much less confusing to my new parent brain (my child is now 15 days old) to have said, unbuffed is 41. +12 wis buffed fully is 67! Listing each spell always makes me suspicious that he builder is trying to hide something behind the numbers! LOL Thats just me though Peace
When I'm creating a build, I always think that way too But now I split it into three: the unbuffed ab (41), the self-buffed ab (58) and the max possible ab (67). I think it is good to know how much AC/AB can a character get without uber stuff, relying only on himself. _________________ "I will be the last...and you will go first!" Sarevok, Child of Bhaal
Quote: Posted 08/18/08 16:16 (GMT) -- Cinnabar Din This build's likely not going to be wearing robes until level 21 (the first Monk level).
It will probably buff with cats and bulls and wear a chainshirt/scalemail at 30 lbs. How hard that is depends on where you play and and if you have meatshields. _________________ I generally avoid temptation, unless I can't resist it...
You do link my Faith Protector which is almost exactly like your build. The epic feats f.ex. is an exact match. That proves great minds think alike I guess. The only difference is that I use my little weapon feats for melee (but still take zen), and use other domains. And a little difference in stat spread. +1 to Wis in this build might seem to costly, but it gives more spells, +1 DC, +1 AB, +1 Will, +1 AC.
Also, you'll never be wearing full plate with an 8 STR. I had 10, + empower spell and that was barely enough. DP grants 18 STR, true, but then you need someone to carry the plate+tower around for you. My advice is to rather hang back and use bow + summons or spells rather than pain yourself on plate pre-epic. Other than pre-epic playability I agree with you.
Nice build, off course. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
), but you have more Div Powers (the build doesn't have extend spell so it's useful!) and Stoneskin. So the second domain depends on personal preference