I've recently come up with the same as here idea of creating a Mystic Theurge, however I have accomplished that task in quite a different manner. The main goal is to create a character that has got an access to every clerical and mystic spell, trying to lose as little as possible from its arcane power. So here it goes:
Different final abilities noted in parentheses - some worlds have plenty of items giving immunity: mind-affecting, so it's either spell focus - greater spell focus - epic spell focus: enchantment OR Toughness - Great Intelligence - Epic spell: Greater ruin
HP: 17 x 10 + 6 x 23 = 308 (348) BAB/AB : Who cares?
AC with plate armour/tower shield and combo Undeath's eternal foe, Aura versus alignment, shadow shield, max cat's grace, shield, epic mage armour, shield of faith, mage armour, magic vestment, haste: 57 (yeah, some of these buffs don't stack)
Arcane DC (9th circle spell from any of the following schools: Enchantment, Necromancy, Evocation): 33 Divine DC (9th circle spell from any of the following schools: Enchantment, Necromancy, Evocation): 30 (Implosion - 33)
NOTES:
0. In order to bump up DC of spells using fortitude/reflex/will throws the epic focuses in necromancy/evocation/enchantment have been taken. 1. Very wide repertoire and a great number of spells! 2. DC is fair, as for a spellcaster. However it should suffice in most cases, as most builds have got at least one certain weakness concerning throws. (See 0.) 3. Epic spell penetration is necessary due to relatively low both levels of caster classes. 4. That character should usually wear some mage robes, although upon facing a melee he may put on an armour and a shield setting all his wizzy spells to stilled mode. 5. Combo Death armour/Elemental shield/Mestil's acid sheath/Holy aura/Unholy aura seems to be quite a nice one. 6. Plenty of buffs! 7. RP, babe! 8. Epic spell focus in Enchantment might be useless as many worlds are filled with items that give immunity to mind-affecting spells. In such case, these 3 feats should be devoted to toughness - great intelligence - Greater Ruin.
I'd appreciate any comments on what could be done better keeping in mind the goal of this build.
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 03/21/09 17:54
This combo has been done. Twice.
Click Here
Click Here
Quote: Posted 12/10/08 19:55 (GMT) -- onion eater
This combo has been done. Twice.
Click Here
Click Here
First of all - don't you see any difference between a Mystic Theurge and a character with devastating critical hit?
Secondly, by writing "I've recently come up with the same as here idea.." I meant the "Mystic Theurge" build. Forgot to link to it. If one reads a bit more carefully, he sees that I stated further "I have accomplished that task in quite a different manner".
Having equivalent levels in all the chosen classes does not imply that the builds are the same.
Edited By ksipsi on 12/10/08 20:25
Oh, one more thing. Concerning the clerical domains: Air/Magic seems to be the set that fits best in that build.
Quote: Posted 12/10/08 20:14 (GMT) -- ksipsi Having equivalent levels in all the chosen classes does not imply that the builds are the same.
Then please tell me why this is a distinct build. The absence of Dev Crit is certainly a good place to start, but if you're going to post the same split, I think it's fair to make an argument why yours is different enough to post.
Quote: Posted 12/10/08 20:54 (GMT) -- onion eater Then please tell me why this is a distinct build. The absence of Dev Crit is certainly a good place to start, but if you're going to post the same split, I think it's fair to make an argument why yours is different enough to post.
What might be a topic for an argument is whether it was right to post that build in a separate post instead of adding a reply to the "Mystic Theurge" one, not what are the differencies between the Red Mage and the Mystic Theurge (aren't differencies in feats, level progression, abilities and general idea really visible?)
Edited By ksipsi on 12/10/08 22:31
I'm ok with this posting as I think it is different enough in some areas to warrant it. I would suggest if one of the two builds inspired your creation, do give that other builder credit for being your muse.
Also as Onion said, if you are saying your build is different, give some examples of why it is different so that those who are reading it can focus on the differences and see where you are coming from.
Thank you for posting. _________________ The secret to eternal youth is simply in your imagination.
Quote: Posted 12/10/08 20:14 (GMT) -- ksipsi
(quote)Posted 12/10/08 19:55 (GMT) -- onion eater
First of all - don't you see any difference between a Mystic Theurge and a character with devastating critical hit?
A msytic theurge is a good caster in BOTH. The way you built this guy, he isnt really in either. He matures way to late to be of use, in a real pw situation.
I have messed around with cleric/wiz cleric/sorc (at least we have a synergistic relationship there!). They never seem right. The ONLY version i like is the dev crit version. I actually pmd him about that build and he told me it is a concept build! Read the comments about it. It is fantastic. This isnt and i cant put my finger on why...
well, 1) 9 feats on spell dc. when you split stats, something suffers, so no way should you play DC spells. 2) going into lv 20 EPIC areas without a mass kill spell? You need wail or something to make your char usefull. 3) no empower nor extend spell. Spellbook management and choice is so important with this guy. Yes he has lots of slots, but your duration on some is weak and you need other slots for non dc damage spells. 4) dispelable all around. 5) no str no dex, yet full plate... hmm 6) for my liking, you dont get lv 9 divine to 36. By that time, your sov and implode are already weak for the environment 7) 8 charisma! This is the only thing i like! after one combat with this guy in your party, the 8 charisma will make it alot easier to kill him in his rest! LOL jk
There is one other, rather appropriate comment you made, "BAB?AB: who cares?"
TO make this guy better, drop ALL the dc feats and really think on what you want. This type of build is spread way to thin to try to do everything. Besides, we all know that the ONLY class that can be EVERYTHING is....
CLERICS! (and i did the Ultimate char awhile ago Click Here in case you have a question! lol)
in case you arent sure.. read my sig _________________
well, 1) 9 feats on spell dc. when you split stats, something suffers, so no way should you play DC spells.
The stats were split in such a way that intelligence suffers to a least extent.
Indeed, three feats for enchantment should be rather spent on either Toughness - Great int - Empower spell OR Toughness - Great int - Great int.
In second option, one gets dc of necromantic and evocation arcane spells (9th circle)= 34. I've just quickly made a 40 wiz with 18 starting int + 10 int + 9 x Great intelligence + 2 epic focuses on necromancy and evocation and his dc with meteor swarm or energy drain was 38. The difference is 4. Not too much, eh?!
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 07:02 (GMT) -- avado 2) going into lv 20 EPIC areas without a mass kill spell? You need wail or something to make your char usefull.
That doesn't matter. By the way, if I took more wizard levels before 21 I'd have to waste a few feats on some undesired ones, thus achieving lower intelligence. So it doesn't matter.
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 07:02 (GMT) -- avado 3) no empower nor extend spell. Spellbook management and choice is so important with this guy. Yes he has lots of slots, but your duration on some is weak and you need other slots for non dc damage spells.
Extend spell is taken at the first level! Concerning empower - see my reply to 1).
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 07:02 (GMT) -- avado 5) no str no dex, yet full plate... hmm
Yet maximized bull's strength. If necessary, gear buffing strength.
Yet maximized cat's grace and here we go with maximal full plate's dex modifier to ac.
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 07:02 (GMT) -- avado 7) 8 charisma! This is the only thing i like! after one combat with this guy in your party, the 8 charisma will make it alot easier to kill him in his rest! LOL jk
...
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 07:02 (GMT) -- avado There is one other, rather appropriate comment you made, "BAB?AB: who cares?"
,,,
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 07:02 (GMT) -- avado TO make this guy better, drop ALL the dc feats and really think on what you want. This type of build is spread way to thin to try to do everything.
Dropping enchantment seems to be a wise solution, however can't say that about dropping the other ones - 34 is not a very low dc...
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 05:53 (GMT) -- Nestrial Darkfalcon Also as Onion said, if you are saying your build is different, give some examples of why it is different so that those who are reading it can focus on the differences and see where you are coming from.
Alrighty. The idea of both builds is the same, however the main difference is the balance between two classes - my build is more arcane oriented (compare starting and final abilities) - equal divine dc, better arcane one. Second one is a different level progression. Many differences in feats: skipped both combat casting feats, spent a few feats on Great Intelligence, different order in which the common feats are taken, my build's got maximize spell.
k, i am abit skewd nin my idea of dc. The only really pure wiz i ever did was a rwot/wiz in PRC that had a 42 DC in necro at lv 24.. ended with 63 iirc.
The whole idea of the build is unoriginal. YOu try to do alot and end up with little. I understand takin wiz before 21 costs you, so does not taking it. imho, it costs you more.
if you were seriously worried about playability, you would do clric 17/wiz23 in that order. that way ALL your wiz bonus feats would be epics. just a thought. _________________
I agree with avado, Storm of Vengeance rocks, it stuns great, it can deal heavy damage over time, and Evasion doesn't work against it, you should try it in your strategy as well, too bad it's conjura
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 19:39 (GMT) -- avado
k, i am abit skewd nin my idea of dc. The only really pure wiz i ever did was a rwot/wiz in PRC that had a 42 DC in necro at lv 24.. ended with 63 iirc.
Dude, I say it with no harsh feelings, you can't keep bringing the PRC as a reference in non PRC builds. It just ain't fair. What can be done there, can't be replicated here, we all know. Let's discuss builds based on their merits (or lack thereof) in a non-PRC NWN frame of reference, please. Peace. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
LOL! Sorry bout that. I made the reference ONLY to point out that i dont play wizards, and my experience with DC is rather skewed (read above). I really had no idea that a dc of 34 or 38 is considered high. With all my clerics, i never worried about it much, cuz with a cleric, things die pretty fast, usually.
My apologies for the OT nature. *slap on wrist* _________________
This post is for general information purposes only, and does not constitute a legal opinion or render any legal advice. It may not be relied on for any purpose, and gives rise to
His DC isn't great in a non-PRC context, but it's not "bad." He's dispellable, but if he gets mord's off first, it won't matter, because the other guy will be getting ready to run. And let's be honest, if I'm a mage in a PvP contest with another mage, I'm not calculating dispel numbers in my head. I'm hitting the mord's on my quickbar.
But I'm not sold on the build, because I really think that you should just concede lvl 9 cleric spells and stop at cleric 11 and be undispellable on the mage side (29/11). Then you have a cleric that can cast heal (or harm) still and his DCs are at least then into the above-average range with all the foci. I'd also agree that you should probably only go foci in the schools you plan on employing regularly. And empower spell would be nice for your attack spells. I think this build would be terribly painful through the mid-level range, going 29/11 would mitigate that some as well. But then it's not your concept, I know.
I do like it better than the original Mystic Theurge, but then, I wasn't crazy about that either. Really, for this concept to work, you need the PRC class. *shrugs* But neither Bio nor Obsidian could ever get around to doing it.
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 19:39 (GMT) -- avado k, i am abit skewd nin my idea of dc. The only really pure wiz i ever did was a rwot/wiz in PRC that had a 42 DC in necro at lv 24.. ended with 63 iirc.
...
LOL! Sorry bout that. I made the reference ONLY to point out that i dont play wizards, and my experience with DC is rather skewed (read above). I really had no idea that a dc of 34 or 38 is considered high. With all my clerics, i never worried about it much, cuz with a cleric, things die pretty fast, usually.
So you were _quite_ unsure of some aspects and commented them in a strict and confident manner.
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 19:39 (GMT) -- avado The whole idea of the build is unoriginal.
Unfortunatelly, somebody was faster. A few years faster.
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 19:39 (GMT) -- avado I understand takin wiz before 21 costs you, so does not taking it. imho, it costs you more.
if you were seriously worried about playability, you would do clric 17/wiz23 in that order. that way ALL your wiz bonus feats would be epics. just a thought.
Uh... haven't you noticed that you've just contradicted your previous statement here?? Firstly, you noted that due to late wizard leveling that build would have hard times within middle levels. Now your saying that I should firstly get 17 levels of cleric, the class intended to be weaker, then 23 levels of wizard, do I understand it correctly?
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 20:59 (GMT) -- RangerSG His DC isn't great in a non-PRC context, but it's not "bad." He's dispellable, but if he gets mord's off first, it won't matter, because the other guy will be getting ready to run. And let's be honest, if I'm a mage in a PvP contest with another mage, I'm not calculating dispel numbers in my head. I'm hitting the mord's on my quickbar.
In PvP being dispellable is only a minor drawback. Who might pose a threat here?
Rather not a spellcaster, as it doesn't really matter in such a clash, as you've just mentioned.
Melee clerics have got an access only to Greater dispelling + they aren't focused on casting capabilities, so they won't be able to touch more powerful buffs (not to mention epic warding and epic armour). Maybe if one had a weapon with a decent dispelling property.
Paladin. Unfortunatelly.
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 20:59 (GMT) -- RangerSG
But I'm not sold on the build, because I really think that you should just concede lvl 9 cleric spells and stop at cleric 11 and be undispellable on the mage side (29/11). Then you have a cleric that can cast heal (or harm) still and his DCs are at least then into the above-average range with all the foci.
Yes, I was also thinking about fifth circle of divine spells as maximum, but decided that having access to both 9th level circles is the goal in itself.
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 20:59 (GMT) -- RangerSG I'd also agree that you should probably only go foci in the schools you plan on employing regularly.
Yes, yes. Now I'm sure that epic spell focus: enchantment should go only in some very special cases;
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 20:59 (GMT) -- RangerSG And empower spell would be nice for your attack spells.
Either Empower spell and arcane dc (9th circle) = 33 OR arcane dc (9th circle)= 34.
The Empower spell helps though with dmg output on spells you intend to use throughout your career. I'd trade the 1 (currently) pt there for the greater optimal dmg. In the long term, the trade off is in your favor.
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 21:16 (GMT) -- ksipsi
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 19:39 (GMT) -- avado k, i am abit skewd nin my idea of dc. The only really pure wiz i ever did was a rwot/wiz in PRC that had a 42 DC in necro at lv 24.. ended with 63 iirc.
...
LOL! Sorry bout that. I made the reference ONLY to point out that i dont play wizards, and my experience with DC is rather skewed (read above). I really had no idea that a dc of 34 or 38 is considered high. With all my clerics, i never worried about it much, cuz with a cleric, things die pretty fast, usually.
So you were _quite_ unsure of some aspects and commented them in a strict and confident manner.
When i played a pure wiz type, way back in my Amon days (around 2005) i could've cared less about DC. I always talk in a confident manner! What's ur point? I still think that a 34 DC is low, regardless. A pure wiz will have nearly 38 int base plus items. Just my view though, like i said.
Quote:
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 19:39 (GMT) -- avado The whole idea of the build is unoriginal.
Unfortunatelly, somebody was faster. A few years faster.
no idea
Quote:
Quote: Posted 12/11/08 19:39 (GMT) -- avado I understand takin wiz before 21 costs you, so does not taking it. imho, it costs you more.
if you were seriously worried about playability, you would do clric 17/wiz23 in that order. that way ALL your wiz bonus feats would be epics. just a thought.
Uh... haven't you noticed that you've just contradicted your previous statement here?? Firstly, you noted that due to late wizard leveling that build would have hard times within middle levels. Now your saying that I should firstly get 17 levels of cleric, the class intended to be weaker, then 23 levels of wizard, do I understand it correctly?
2 separate ideas. YOUR idea is to leave yourself short of offense going into lv 20range. By deciding to take cleric in pre, you leave your char without mass offense like Wail, among others. Taking the cleric levels in stead of these killers (your build) isnt the best idea, hence the first comment.
Clerics are always tough! You may think they are less so cuz of lv 17 vs 23, i assure you they are not. A cleric, in the early levels is VERY easy to level, vs a wizard, regardless of the end game focus. My comment, like i said, was in terms of leveling playability. Going into epic with lv 9 divine spells IS a very nice way to play. Lv 8 and lv9 (arc or div) spells are a necessity, imo, for this character in the mid lvl range. YOu have omittted BOTH styles.
in the end, its your build. NOthing i could say will change your mind, despite the logic or heresy! You can try to pick apart what i say all day. In the end, its opinion. NOthing you can say will change my experience with arcane/div casters, just like nothing i said here will make an impact on you. _________________
avado, you really need to stop ranting so much about your uber Cleric PrC build.
Quote: I have messed around with cleric/wiz cleric/sorc (at least we have a synergistic relationship there!). They never seem right. The ONLY version i like is the dev crit version.
What!? you crazy? you're saying any kind of Cleric is no good? the combination is pretty awesome you know, you just watch my Magic Master and say it sucks, I dare you
Quote: But I'm not sold on the build, because I really think that you should just concede lvl 9 cleric spells and stop at cleric 11 and be undispellable on the mage side (29/11). Then you have a cleric that can cast heal (or harm) still and his DCs are at least then into the above-average range with all the foci.
Just a small intervention, but his Harm wouldn't hit a naked orc sleeping in the day, his base score for a touch attack is just low.
Well, to the build: There are some problems, you see, 34 DC on a level 9 spells is not that bad, I agree, but it's far from excellent. You need a DC of 40 to say it's high and mighty...
Pardon me, but what does that mean? I don't recall a spell called Toughness, neither it would have anything to do with Enchantment. If it is meant as a choice where you pick either Spell Focus or Toughness then it makes more gramatical sense but Toughness is not the best feat to take here by far.
So, I'd drop all the Enchantment Focus and Take Empower Spell, Expertise and Improved Expertise, since you don't care about AB anyway, so use it to boost AC, it makes a serious difference.
The spread, since this is a caster and not a buffer, I advice to take Wizard up to level 18 before starting with Cleric, that way you'll get all the strong spells in order to level it up. It is a bad choice to stop it at level 14, you'll get almost no powerful spells to level up.
This spread can be difficult to play as it is, you use armor but arcane is your main casting ability and you start off as Wizard, so if you want to play this for real, forget about the armor and shield. Even if you take Still spell, it's a joke to say a level 14 Wizard is going to still spells and use them until level 27, what are you going to still, two slots of Isaacs Greater Missile Storm and some Firebrands? that won't work for more than two or three enemy encounters. Finger of Death, your only level 7 instant kill Necromancy-focused cannot be stilled by level 14. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/12/08 18:09
People, ease up on the guy a bit. Yeah, the combo's been done, but to me it looks sufficiently different to warrant posting (the other two stop at low INT and WIS, while this build doesn't. There are also some feat differences as well as the way it's levelled).
Overall, for what he's stating he wants to accomplish (getting access to all the arcane and divine spells while losing as little as possible on the WIZ spells), I think he does quite well. While dispelling may be a concern, with 23 WIZ levels, it's by no means a guarantee (only a 10% chance). I think, depending on the environment, this could be quite an effective character. Tough one to level though, and the low stats in STR and DEX will pose a real problem in the first few levels.
I might be tempted to go with a few CLC levels first, then jump to WIZ. This allows you to get the Cleric buffs (and once you get access to Divine Power, you're good to go in melee).
ksipsi: generally, it's a good idea to provide links to similar builds in your build post as it makes it easier to compare and contrast. _________________ It's rogue, dammit, ROGUE!!!
Yeah, I'm with Cinn on this one. It's different enough to be considered a new slant. My one complaint, and this is for all theurges (theurgi?), is that there are not enough quickslots. I easily run out of quickslots with just a Wizard.
On the other hand, has anyone tried to do a more synergistic approach, whereby one goes Sorc23/Cleric17, and making Charisma the primary stat, and thereby synergizing the charisma with Turning, Domain durations, and possible Divine Might/Shield? I think I recall just one, something like Mystra's Devotee, something whipped up by old Mith. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Just a small intervention, but his Harm wouldn't hit a naked orc sleeping in the day, his base score for a touch attack is just low.
Well it would, provided that divine power and other divine buffs were used. But that's not that build.
Quote: Posted 12/12/08 17:56 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia Well, to the build: There are some problems, you see, 34 DC on a level 9 spells is not that bad, I agree, but it's far from excellent. You need a DC of 40 to say it's high and mighty...
39 DC is the maximum of what a pure wizard can achieve here. 18 int + 10 int + 10 x Great intelligence + epic focus.
Pardon me, but what does that mean? I don't recall a spell called Toughness, neither it would have anything to do with Enchantment. If it is meant as a choice where you pick either Spell Focus or Toughness then it makes more gramatical sense but Toughness is not the best feat to take here by far.
So, I'd drop all the Enchantment Focus and Take Empower Spell, Expertise and Improved Expertise, since you don't care about AB anyway, so use it to boost AC, it makes a serious difference.
I have explained "that" in my first posting. I've already stated a few remarks in that thread concerning Epic focus: enchantment. What is the point in hampering intellectual progress in favour of getting better ac? Expertise + Improved Expertise means -2 to intelligence. Do I really need that ac? Upon facing a melee such a character puts on an armour and a shield, stills all his wizzy spells, casts greater sanctuary (a few times) and puts on a few dozens of buffs (Including death armour/elemental shield/Mestil's acid sheath/Holy aura/Unholy aura. See notes to: Aura versus alignment. Min/max/average damage that is dealt to an attacker on successful hit is 91/118/104,5). On the other hand, expertise is not the best option here, as that mode interferes with defensive casting mode. _Generally_ speaking, both modes - expertise and defensive casting would play the same role in that build.
Quote: Posted 12/12/08 17:56 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia The spread, since this is a caster and not a buffer, I advice to take Wizard up to level 18 before starting with Cleric, that way you'll get all the strong spells in order to level it up. It is a bad choice to stop it at level 14, you'll get almost no powerful spells to level up.
Yes, yes, yes. I must agree, I'm just posting a new version of that build.
Quote: Posted 12/12/08 17:56 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia This spread can be difficult to play as it is, you use armor but arcane is your main casting ability and you start off as Wizard, so if you want to play this for real, forget about the armor and shield. Even if you take Still spell, it's a joke to say a level 14 Wizard is going to still spells and use them until level 27, what are you going to still, two slots of Isaacs Greater Missile Storm and some Firebrands? that won't work for more than two or three enemy encounters. Finger of Death, your only level 7 instant kill Necromancy-focused cannot be stilled by level 14.
No! I've mentioned that this char would usually wear magical robes. Steel and iron only while saying 'hello' to a melee.
Edited By ksipsi on 12/12/08 22:54
Great thanks folks for all your input! I've just tweaked that build, meaning its level progress - I must admit that it was indeed quite an unfortunate one. Here we go:
The Arcane Theurge, Human, 17 Cleric/23 Wizard, Lawful Neutral,
Wizardry: General school Clerical domains: Good/Magic or Knowledge/Magic (RP! Mystran or Oghman priest), but Air/Magic seems to be the best one.
Leveling: 1: WIZ: Extend spell, Spell focus: Evocation 2: WIZ: 3: WIZ: Greater spell focus: Evocation 4: WIZ: INT+1 5: WIZ: Spell focus: Necromancy 6: WIZ: Greater spell focus: Necromancy 7: WIZ: 8: WIZ: INT+1 9: WIZ: Empower spell 10: WIZ: Spell penetration 11: WIZ: 12: WIZ: INT +1; Maximize spell 13: WIZ: 14: WIZ: 15: WIZ: Toughness; Still spell 16: WIZ: INT +1 17: WIZ: 18: WIZ: Greater spell penetration 19: WIZ: 20: CLE: WIS +1 21: WIZ: Epic spell focus: Necromancy; Epic spell focus: Evocation 22: WIZ: 23: CLE: 24: WIZ: INT +1; Epic spell: Epic mage armour 25: CLE: 26: CLE: 27: CLE: Epic spell penetration 28: CLE: WIS +1 29: CLE: 30: CLE: Great Intelligence I 31: WIZ: Epic spell: Epic warding 32: CLE: WIS +1 33: CLE: Great intelligence II 34: CLE: 35: CLE: 36: CLE: WIS +1; Great Intelligence III 37: CLE: 38: CLE: 39: CLE: Great Intelligence IV 40: CLE: WIS +1
HP: 17 x 10 + 6 x 23 + 40 = 308 + 40 = 348.
AC with plate armour/tower shield and combo Undeath's eternal foe, Aura versus alignment, shadow shield, max cat's grace, shield, epic mage armour, shield of faith, mage armour, magic vestment, haste: 57 (yeah, some of these buffs don't stack)
Arcane DC (9th circle spell from any of the following schools: Necromancy, Evocation): 33 Divine DC (9th circle spell from any of the following schools: Necromancy, Evocation): 30 (Implosion - 33)
Alrighty, any comments on what could be improved now? That build matures much quicker - taking empower spell on a pre-epic level saved me from being forced to do some levelling acrobatics as before, I lost 1 arcane dc though. Epic armour and epic warding come _sooner_ now. What might be an issue here, is whether or not to trade one point of wisdom for intelligence (-1 divine dc +1 arcane dc). I'd rather speak for leaving it as it is, for it might render divine spells too weak.
Edited By ksipsi on 12/12/08 23:16
The class and feat spread is a lot nicer now.
Quote: No! I've mentioned that this char would usually wear magical robes. Steel and iron only while saying 'hello' to a melee.
Sure, I said the same thing when I made a Wizard/Cleric/Fighter build, but it just doesn't work in real combat time. If you attempt to wear an armor when you see a melee, first, you've got to be quite fast to open the inventory and change it before he gets to you, which is a waste of time that could be better used casting spells, and second, you can't take it off until the fight is over or so. Not to mention if you didn't prepare Stilled spells in advance then you can't use them and if you stilled them without using armor you're wasting slots. All around, you need to pick one style, armor or no armor, the part where you're going to change it according to the circumstances is harder than it sounds. Using stilled spells isn't wrong, they work nice, I only said they won't suffice a level 14 Wizard up to level 27, now that that's been changed, there's no more problem about it.
Quote: 39 DC is the maximum of what a pure wizard can achieve here. 18 int + 10 int + 10 x Great intelligence + epic focus.
My bad, must've been thinking on buffed DC, which gets up to 45.
Quote: What is the point in hampering intellectual progress in favour of getting better ac? Expertise + Improved Expertise means -2 to intelligence. Do I really need that ac?
Well, this is a very debatable point, in the end it comes down to style and everyone takes the feats they want. I mentioned Improved Expertise given nobody else did. I like the feat and use it with my casters, it works nicely IMO, though I admit it works best when you're also taking improved Combat Casting. 10 AC is no small amount, casters always need more AC, and hampering intellectual progress is a rather excessive qualification, it's only -1 INT modifier for 10 AC, there is where you take the choice of what you prefer. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/13/08 00:09
Quote: Posted 12/13/08 00:06 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia Sure, I said the same thing when I made a Wizard/Cleric/Fighter build, but it just doesn't work in real combat time. If you attempt to wear an armor when you see a melee, first, you've got to be quite fast to open the inventory and change it before he gets to you, which is a waste of time that could be better used casting spells, and second, you can't take it off until the fight is over or so. Not to mention if you didn't prepare Stilled spells in advance then you can't use them and if you stilled them without using armor you're wasting slots. All around, you need to pick one style, armor or no armor, the part where you're going to change it according to the circumstances is harder than it sounds.
Oh, that is a typical sorcerer-oriented style of gaming. An unprepared wizard, if asaulted, would rather use such a strategy: greater sanctuary/invisibility - pulling back - adjusting his gear - adjusting his spells - retaliation. The only problem might arise if dueling a melee and a spellcaster would be expected. But in such cases one usually has got some support from other companions so that problem should be tackled using proper tactics. Nota bene, I am of the opinion that 3 x Auto still is in _most_ cases a great waste of feats implied by laziness of a player who doesn't want to bother with adjusting his spells depending on the situation.
Quote: What is the point in hampering intellectual progress in favour of getting better ac? Expertise + Improved Expertise means -2 to intelligence. Do I really need that ac?
Well, this is a very debatable point, in the end it comes down to style and everyone takes the feats they want. I mentioned Improved Expertise given nobody else did. I like the feat and use it with my casters, it works nicely IMO, though I admit it works best when you're also taking improved Combat Casting. 10 AC is no small amount, casters always need more AC, and hampering intellectual progress is a rather excessive qualification, it's only -1 INT modifier for 10 AC, there is where you take the choice of what you prefer.
(It's -2 to INT for +10 to AC)
The situation concerning Expertise vs defensive casting looks like that:
1. For pure wizards, who have got many spare feats and don't need to bother with intelligence modifier (because they already have got it high), and very weak ac, expertise is the better solution - should prevent more attacks in a duel than a defensive casting mode.
2. For builds like mine, who crave bonuses to intelligence, have got a better ac, got more buffs, can wear armour, defensive casting mode seems more suitable than expertise.
Quote: But in such cases one usually has got some support from other companions so that problem should be tackled using proper tactics.
Well, I never assume you have a party. Truth be told, my way out of this problem was taking a Monk level, that way you don't even need the armor. I'm most proficient in making the build stronger, not my playstyle... PvP has taught me all tactics fail every once in a while.
Quote: (It's -2 to INT for +10 to AC)
The situation concerning Expertise vs defensive casting looks like that:
1. For pure wizards, who have got many spare feats and don't need to bother with intelligence modifier (because they already have got it high), and very weak ac, expertise is the better solution - should prevent more attacks in a duel than a defensive casting mode.
2. For builds like mine, who crave bonuses to intelligence, have got a better ac, got more buffs, can wear armour, defensive casting mode seems more suitable than expertise.
Heh, it's your turn for misreading, -2 to an ability score only reduces the modifier by 1. I compared the modifier, not the score, that way it sounds less important so that my argument sounds stronger
Good points, but it's still not rock solid. You cannot gloat of a high AC unless you're above about 80 or Weapon Masters are still going to lay waste with their devastating criticals. Your build is strong, I believe the class combination to be a very good one, but I'd still stick to Improved Expertise, you don't have to agree. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Quote: Posted 12/12/08 22:59 (GMT) -- ksipsi Clerical domains: ...but Air/Magic seems to be the best one.
I find that very, very difficult to believe.
Quote: Posted 12/13/08 07:34 (GMT) -- onion eater
Quote: Posted 12/12/08 22:59 (GMT) -- ksipsi Clerical domains: ...but Air/Magic seems to be the best one.
I find that very, very difficult to believe.
I understand that you suggest war/strength, right? (We're speaking here about which set of domains is the best for a theurge. No generalisations.)
The situation concerning Expertise vs defensive casting looks like that:
1. For pure wizards, who have got many spare feats and don't need to bother with intelligence modifier (because they already have got it high), and very weak ac, expertise is the better solution - should prevent more attacks in a duel than a defensive casting mode.
2. For builds like mine, who crave bonuses to intelligence, have got a better ac, got more buffs, can wear armour, defensive casting mode seems more suitable than expertise.
Heh, it's your turn for misreading, -2 to an ability score only reduces the modifier by 1. I compared the modifier, not the score, that way it sounds less important so that my argument sounds stronger
Hehe.
Quote: Posted 12/13/08 01:31 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia Good points, but it's still not rock solid. You cannot gloat of a high AC unless you're above about 80 or Weapon Masters are still going to lay waste with their devastating criticals.
Well, for approaching a weapon master that build's got word of faith and sunburst in its repertoire. By the way, many servers prohibit using dev. crits.
Magic domain is not a good choice for a Cleric/Wizard since you just replicate mage spells. Air at least lets you turn elementals. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Quote: Posted 12/13/08 01:13 (GMT) -- ksipsi
Nota bene, I am of the opinion that 3 x Auto still is in _most_ cases a great waste of feats ...
Yes, that was quite an unfortunate statement in general. Nevertheless, it applies to that build.
Magic domain is not a good choice for a Cleric/Wizard since you just replicate mage spells.
... and increase the number of chain lightning/ice storm that can be cast per day. What's more, air/magic grants this build ability to cast maximized or empowered ice storm and chain lightning while wearing an armour.
Quote: Posted 12/13/08 10:21 (GMT) -- Kail Pendragon Air at least lets you turn elementals.
I'd rather not bother with CHA based abilities while being as handsome as a person that can't be distinguished from a troll.
Plant? For barkskin? Healing? It'd bear little benefits in epic levels.
Quote: Posted 12/13/08 10:08 (GMT) -- ksipsi
Quote: Posted 12/13/08 07:34 (GMT) -- onion eater
Quote: Posted 12/12/08 22:59 (GMT) -- ksipsi Clerical domains: ...but Air/Magic seems to be the best one.
I find that very, very difficult to believe.
I understand that you suggest war/strength, right? (We're speaking here about which set of domains is the best for a theurge. No generalisations.)
Oh, no, no suggestions. I'm just thinking you can do better. STR seems a decent choice though. More DPs should be very handy. I'm just sayin', neither of those choices seems at all optimal. Plant might be good. *shrug* You're build though. I'm sure you can come up with a better recommendation.
Quote: Posted 12/13/08 10:44 (GMT) -- ksipsi Plant? For barkskin?
Sure. Creeping Doom doesn't hurt either.
Quote: Healing? It'd bear little benefits in epic levels.
Sure it would be. More heals can always be handy. Probably wouldn't be my first (or second) choice, but it's gotta be better than magic or air.
Quote: Posted 12/13/08 10:45 (GMT) -- onion eater Oh, no, no suggestions. I'm just thinking you can do better. STR seems a decent choice though. More DPs should be very handy. I'm just sayin', neither of those choices seems at all optimal. Plant might be good. *shrug* You're build though. I'm sure you can come up with a better recommendation.
Strength would be one of the worst choices here. The only situation where divine power would be of any use is when a theurge runs out of his spells... Stoneskin? Buffed strength for less then one minute?
Plant. If a theurge needs some protection, he puts on a shining armour and a shining shield. Such a shining ones, that barkskin would have no effect on ac.
So the only other sensible domain would be healing or animal for true seeing at the third level. However I am not so sure whether it would overwhelm benefits of the additional spellpower + ability of casting maximized chain lightning/ice storm while wearing an armour.
Edited By ksipsi on 12/13/08 11:36
Oh, one more thing. In case of a high magic server (=most cases), where the only benefit of taking Epic Armour is +5 to dodge ac one should forfeit that spell substituting it with mage armour + shadow conjuration: mage armour casted at least 5 times and taking Great intelligence V instead (Thus achieving 34 dc in arcane!)
Edited By ksipsi on 12/13/08 17:16
Quote: Plant. If a theurge needs some protection, he puts on a shining armour and a shining shield. Such a shining ones, that barkskin would have no effect on ac.
Barkskin raises Natural AC, I believe no other buff can imitate that. However, it's only useful in low levels (but you're starting as a Wizard, not Cleric so that's a no) and in low magical environments, so it's most probable it will end useless. Creeping Doom is kinda nice, but I see this build has quite a lot of spellpower already, I'd throw a Wail of Banshee or a Finger of Death before trying Creeping Doom, I agree with ksipsi, Plant isn't for this build.
23 levels of Wizard gives you more than half the stuff you usually try to get with Domains, so any Domain you pick it seems like you've got those spells already with your Wizard, that's why Plant could come to mind, it gives Druid stuff you don't have, but you've got to like Creeping Doom to take it. I think Healing is not a bad choice, it never is, Heal at level 5 is a good way to use low level slots where your offensive spells are not really so strong, but any Domain would do, all of them will add very little. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Magic domain is not a good choice for a Cleric/Wizard since you just replicate mage spells.
... and increase the number of chain lightning/ice storm that can be cast per day.
Now, now, that's what scribe scroll is for
Quote: What's more, air/magic grants this build ability to cast maximized or empowered ice storm and chain lightning while wearing an armour.
That's a better point, although when building a cleric/wizard I expect autostill or no armor.
Anyhow, I would choose among Healing, Plant, Animal and Strength.
Quote:
Quote: Posted 12/13/08 10:21 (GMT) -- Kail Pendragon Air at least lets you turn elementals.
I'd rather not bother with CHA based abilities while being as handsome as a person that can't be distinguished from a troll.
You can buff your Cha and your turning ability will be at least decent.
Quote: Plant? For barkskin?
That and Creeping Doom
Quote: Healing? It'd bear little benefits in epic levels.
You have 1 extra spell lvl for your heals, which ain't bad at all. Yes you can scribe heals too but that's a spell one sometimes wants to fire asap (and when hasted casting vs scroll makes a difference). Also, it helps greatly leveling up.
Animal for more powerful summons (especially if you play in an environment where you can get lvl 10 summons with the animal domain) and TS as a 3rd lvl spell.
Strength for earlier and more DP.
Anyhow, domain choices won't make or break the build. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Quote: Posted 12/13/08 16:52 (GMT) -- ksipsi
Oh, one more thing. In case of a high magic server (=most cases)
A note: the claim that high magic servers represent the majority of cases is highly debatable. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
A note: the claim that high magic servers represent the majority of cases is highly debatable.
Are we talking here about hack and slash worlds? Are there many low magic hns servers? Besides, a character with min/maxed abilities who is an armed pure spellcaster with toughness feat is a persona non grata on rpg servers.
There are plenty of low to mid magic action servers. That is also where a build like this has a greater advantage.
Just so im clear on this... new player builds a version of cleric/wiz for all the world to see. some of the best builders in the guild give some of their insight into how to make the build better... new player, in all his knowledge, argues his points to death... hmm
You do realize that the air/magic domain comment is valid, right? IF, and it seems a big IF, you are going to use armor, you really need autostill 3. Sure, you can do it with still, but then you loose lv 9 spells in wiz, which are some very important killing machines (wail and max igms, to name 2). But who knows, maybe your idea of striping down just before every battle is valid. After all, we all have crytstal balls and we always know exactly when it is time to get into a combat (which, if you arent aware, CAN mean (and it may be server dependant, hence CAN) that once you have taken the armor off, you cant put anything else in that slot uptil after combat). I guess you are giving the diablo 2 term "Naked maging" a whole new meaning (or the exact meaning they meant).
You should really listen to Kail, grizz, onion and Thax. I am fairly certain they do know what they are talking about. Infact, i have played some of their builds myself WITHOUT tweak, cuz they is that GOOD! _________________
This post is for general information purposes only, and does not constitute a legal opinion or render any legal advice. It may not be relied on for any purpose, and gives rise to
Quote: Posted 12/14/08 05:43 (GMT) -- avado
Just so im clear on this... new player builds a version of cleric/wiz for all the world to see. some of the best builders in the guild give some of their insight into how to make the build better... new player, in all his knowledge, argues his points to death... hmm
Just go through that post and see that I incorporated other players' suggestions into that build. Read carefully.
Who's got an emotional attitude to this topic and 'argues his points to death'? You stubbornly try to defend your false statements from the first post throughout the whole thread - after you compromised yourself and exposed incompetence with comments on dc you persisted to argue that 34 is still very low and used every faint opportunity to depreciate that build. Zery gut. Till now, don't write any posts that require my answer.
A note: the claim that high magic servers represent the majority of cases is highly debatable.
Are we talking here about hack and slash worlds? Are there many low magic hns servers?
Yes there are many low and mid magic action servers and they are much better than high magic ones, IMO.
Quote: Besides, a character with min/maxed abilities who is an armed pure spellcaster with toughness feat is a persona non grata on rpg servers.
It depends on the PW. Not all RP servers luckily have that elitist attitude which has nothing to do with RP. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Peace guys.
Avado is slightly biased because of PRC addiction and while he may result at times a little harsh he means no harm.
Also, while the DC here is not to be considered really bad it is also not really good.
The comments have been made, the suggestions given, people will draw a personal conclusion and make up their minds as to which is the best course of action this build idea wise.
Once more, peace. _________________ They can't stop us Let them try For Heavy Metal We will die
Wow, this got really extended and agressive.
Quote: by avado IF, and it seems a big IF, you are going to use armor, you really need autostill 3.
Nah, autostill 3 just lowers his DC, those feats should be taken only if he hadn't those 17 Cleric levels. I've played a few arcane casters without still spell and they're playable alright.
Well, the point in the feedback is usually to improve the build, and that has been done, the second version looks pretty nice IMO, so I guess I'm done saying my opinion (you should shut up as well avado). Looking forward to another build from you ksipsi, luckily it won't get so many harsh comments. _________________
Yeah, I'm with Cinn on this one. It's different enough to be considered a new slant. My one complaint, and this is for all theurges (theurgi?), is that there are not enough quickslots. I easily run out of quickslots with just a Wizard.
(We're speaking here about which set of domains is the best for a theurge. No generalisations.)