Another my build. Seems that nobody has so far used such a split.
The object is to create a decent innatist spellsword capable of dealing nice damage through isaacs as well as by smashing with his morgenstern, having buffed of course. Here we go:
ISAAC'S MORGENSTERN - SORCERER(26), CHAMPION OF TORM(11), ROGUE(3) Human, Lawful Neutral (any non evil)
ABILITIES (ending) STR 14 (20) DEX 8 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 8 CHA 18 (28)
BASIC STATS HP: 352 Skillpoints: 147
Saving throws (Fort/Ref/Will): 25/22/25
AC (naked/full plate and tower shield): 19/30 Buffed AC (Cat's Grace or Dex +4, Haste, MA, EMA): 57 (67 capping dodge AC)
BAB: 20 AB: 29 Buffed AB (GMW, lucky empowered BS): 37 (42 with DW, 62 capped) Smite Evil AB bonus: +9/+12 (+15 capped Cha)
NOTES: 1. Immune to greater dispelling, so combat clerics can't touch any single buff whilst losing all theirs (Mordenkainen). 2. Quite a weak HP. 3. Main mode of dueling is of course throwing IGMSs onto the enemy 4. While facing a spellcaster one may take him by surprise interrupting the sequence of Mantle -> Spell Breach -> IGMS -> Mantle... by casting suddenly a True Strike optionally accompanied with Divine Wrath (Quick + 25 to AB) and charging onto him with a morgenstern - high chance of being successful with such an ambush especially while keeping a short distance between two adversaries as the enemy won't have any buffs on himself (modulo spell mantle ) 5. Nice saving throws.
Looking forward to your comments.
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 05/27/10 21:15
Quote: Posted 12/18/08 00:32 (GMT) -- ksipsi
The object is to create a decent innatist spellsword capable of dealing nice damage through isaacs as well as by smashing with his morgenstern, having buffed of course. Here we go:
I tried something like that once, though I didn't use any Rogue levels. I think it was called The August SpellBlade. Similar concept, only different execution.
How exactly are you determining AB here? True strike, GMW and Divine Wrath all count toward the +20 cap. What you need to do is determine what your base AB is. With 19 Sorc levels up front, you have a base BAB of 20 total (that's 10 pre-epic, with your automatic 10 from epic).
So, with a 20BAB, 20 strength, and +4 for feats, that gives you an AB of 29. Not awful, but no bag of chips either. Throw in your +20 cap and +6 for maximum strength enhancement, and the highest he could ever reach, no matter how many buffs he has on, is 55. Smite can add anywhere from 9-15 to that, but it's only good 1/day for a tiny moment, and you won't be able to do it and True Strike at the same time.
Anyway, I'm not picking, just observing, trying to figure out if my math is right or if you miscalculated. I thought his AB looked a little out of whack for 19Sorc levels pre-loaded.
Edit: Just saw this tidbit:
Quote: AC Dodge modifier is 4 + 5 + 1 = 10, so we bump up AC with mage armour/conjure shadow: mage armour up to 67.
How exactly are you bumping up the Dodge AC here? Did I miss something in a patch? I haven't been able to get Mage Armor dodge AC to stack for some time. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Anyway, I'm not picking, just observing, trying to figure out if my math is right or if you miscalculated. I thought his AB looked a little out of whack for 19Sorc levels pre-loaded. ... How exactly are you bumping up the Dodge AC here? Did I miss something in a patch? I haven't been able to get Mage Armor dodge AC to stack for some time.
...
k, you mention this is to be a melee spellsword type, that uses spells mostly. You have more cha than str, so what we really need to consider is HOW can we get divine might and/or shield (shield isnt necessary, but it could help). you can't get it with CoT. So, i know it changes it some, but what about a pal? That way you can get the cha to saves, divine might for damage. If you are worried about xp penalty, then keep rog and pal close (say 4/4) and break up the rog levels for ease of leveling (i am not sure why you put 3 rog at lv 35-40? usually they are dispersed thru the build for skill dumps, but what do i know).
I know pal changes the idea of the build, but it gives you more options. Looking at cot/sorc, we dont really get a synergy IN PRACTICE (i know on paper they seem to), so maybe thats why this is sort of unique.
Other than that, with what you have to work with these classes, good work.
edit: OH DUALING! You play pvp born at 40 servers! THat would explain it! If that is what you are doing, then i would take as many cot lvls pre epic as you can. THat way you max AB. I couldnt figure out the rog lvls until i took another look! That is why you build that way! k, got it now. You should put at the top of the build that that is what you play, cuz many of us will ASSUME that you are making it for play to 40, so the suggestions are based on playability! now i understand! _________________
This post is for general information purposes only, and does not constitute a legal opinion or render any legal advice. It may not be relied on for any purpose, and gives rise to
How exactly are you determining AB here? ... Anyway, I'm not picking, just observing, trying to figure out if my math is right or if you miscalculated. I thought his AB looked a little out of whack for 19Sorc levels pre-loaded.
No, no, seems no miscalculation out there. I wasn't aware of BAB progression mechanism and bonus cap.
Quote: Posted 12/18/08 02:12 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord Edit: Just saw this tidbit:
Quote: AC Dodge modifier is 4 + 5 + 1 = 10, so we bump up AC with mage armour/conjure shadow: mage armour up to 67.
How exactly are you bumping up the Dodge AC here? Did I miss something in a patch? I haven't been able to get Mage Armor dodge AC to stack for some time.
Quoting Click Here "The dodge bonus to armor class from the mage armor subspell will not stack with an existing dodge bonus from a regular mage armor spell. However, the reverse works — the dodge bonus from a regular mage armor will stack with an existing bonus from a shadow variant. Furthermore, casting the shadow variant after a regular mage armor will allow the dodge bonus from a future regular mage armor to stack with existing bonuses, despite these bonuses coming from the same spell. This can be repeated up to the +20 cap."
I've tried it with 1.69 and it works, however some may find it as a cheating.
Quote: Posted 12/18/08 02:12 (GMT) -- avado k, you mention this is to be a melee spellsword type, that uses spells mostly. You have more cha than str, so what we really need to consider is HOW can we get divine might and/or shield (shield isnt necessary, but it could help). you can't get it with CoT.
Divine shield doesn't work nicely with epic armour as the former one gives dodge ac bonus. I've taken CoT mainly for boosting AB - Divine Wrath, which doesn't work because of a cap PP. And Divine Might gives boost to damage, not to ab - which had higher priority in this build.
Quote: Posted 12/18/08 02:12 (GMT) -- avado So, i know it changes it some, but what about a pal? That way you can get the cha to saves, divine might for damage.
Yes, that character is to be __thoroughly__ rebuilt and pal seems to be the best choice. I'm posting a new one shortly. Keeping in mind bab and ab cap infrastructure this time.
Quote: Posted 12/18/08 13:59 (GMT) -- ksipsi
Divine shield doesn't work nicely with epic armour as the former one gives dodge ac bonus. I've taken CoT mainly for boosting AB - Divine Wrath, which doesn't work because of a cap PP. And Divine Might gives boost to damage, not to ab - which had higher priority in this build.
k, divine shield gives Dodge AC, epic mage armor, last i checked (and 1.69 could have nerfed it again), is Armor ac. I am not sure how they couldnt work together? btw, Dodge ac DOES stack to +20. It is the only ac that does.
Now, taking COT in epic does nothing for improving AB. You could take the super class "gerbal" in epic and get +10 to your bab from lv 20. I know div might adds damage. That is why i suggested it. With a relatively weak character with no physical damage output, and no AB, IF you are going to mix it up, you want to make sure that ALL the few hits you make hit hard. You have 28 cha base, so div might makes alot of sense. Like i said though, these cant happen with COT version, so the build is really changed alot (sorc/pals are plentiful). _________________
I agree with avado, Storm of Vengeance rocks, it stuns great, it can deal heavy damage over time, and Evasion doesn't work against it, you should try it in your strategy as well, too bad it's conjura
EMA gives +5 to dodge (as well as +5 armor, deflection, and natural). DS dodge is indeed dodge AC, but, as mentioned, it does stack, up to +20. Unless you are getting some pretty huge bonus from something else (say, bard song, and haste), they can work very nicely together. W/ EMA, MA, haste, and DS w/ a 30 CHA, you'll hit the cap. If you have other items, or spells, that might start to limit the utility, but even if you're sitting at +15 or so w/out DS, +5 AC is nothing to sneeze at.
Quote: No, no, seems no miscalculation out there. I wasn't aware of BAB progression mechanism and bonus cap.
You could've been mislead by the character sheet. If you add let's say +30 to your AB the character sheet says you have them, but in feedback rolls you can notice it's not true.
Divine Wrath will add damage, but it's true, Divine Might would add more.
What really hits you hard is the low BAB because you take all pre-epic as Sorcerer. With only 10 pre-epic BAB you'll be making only 2 attacks per round, and I don't want to be mean, but that sucks for any character who attempts to fight in melee. With just one more CoT pre-epic you'll reach 3 APR, but truth be told, I wouldn't see the build as a spellsword without 16 BAB. The best route to improve that might be Paladin, since you can't take CoT early on a build with so much Sorcerer. A Paladin 12 / Sorcerer 8 pre-epic spread reaches the 16 BAB required to make 4 APR, which is impossible with a Sorc/CoT spread. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Quote: ---Avado: If you are worried about xp penalty, then keep rog and pal close (say 4/4) and break up the rog levels for ease of leveling (i am not sure why you put 3 rog at lv 35-40? usually they are dispersed thru the build for skill dumps, but what do i know).
Mainly in order to charm the way that CoT bonus feats are spent - it was a bit hard to put CoT's leveling exactly in such a way as to get Great Charisma IV and Great Strength II. Surely, I'd otherwise use only one level of rogue at the end of the progression to max tumble.
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Alright, that build can't be fixed with these classes, meaning the idea can't be implemented succesfully with exactly these. A bit more about the way I thought it might work: maturing in sorc as fast as possible, using CoT to both raise AB as well as to bump up Charisma and Strength through additional feats and maxing the AC benefiting from rogue's tumble.
Changes: - Most sorcerer levels are taken in epic. - CoT limited to 5 levels taken in pre-epic (two bonus feats and divine wrath) - Red Dragon Disciple nicely functions in raising abilities as well as maxing AC. Tumble falls to 20, but hey, we didn't lose any AC here (in comparison to rogue's 40 tumble) because of +4 from draconic armour.
The modified build is Human, 25 Sorcerer/ 10 Red Dragon Disciple/ 5 Champion of Torm, Chaotic Neutral and I think it should look nicer now.
Abilities: STR 14 (22) DEX 8 CON 14 (16) WIS 8 INT 10 (12) CHA 18 (30)
_All aditional selectable bonuses to abilities go to charisma._
NOTES: 1. The build is genuine. 2. Low discipline is not a concern here, as the main mode of chopping is Isaac's Finest Invention 3. Immune to greater dispelling, so combat clerics can't touch any single buff whilst losing all theirs (Mordenkainen). 4. While facing a spellcaster one may take him by surprise interrupting the sequence of Mantle -> Spell Breach -> IGMS -> Mantle... by casting suddenly a True Strike (Or better: Tenser's transforamtion, as possible loss of AC is no threat in such a confrontation. If AC is vital while getting a +20 AB, use True Strike) and charging onto him with a morgenstern - high chance of being successful with such an ambush especially while keeping a short distance between two adversaries as the enemy won't have any buffs on himself (modulo spell mantle ) 5. Epic spell penetration, so little chance of not beating the opponent's SR. (Excluding monks, but those should pose little threat) 6. Matures with Sorc lately.
BTW: Please change the topic of that thread to the relevant one because of changes in split.
Edited By ksipsi on 12/18/08 23:43
Bloody hells! I should have gone pally here instead of Cot.... This time it shall be the _final_ version.
Quote: Posted 12/19/08 00:22 (GMT) -- ksipsi
Bloody hells! I should have gone pally here instead of Cot.... This time it shall be the _final_ version.
Going Pally here instead of CoT means: - Losing: Epic prowess, Epic spell penetration, greater spell penetration + Gaining: Divine shield, Divine might (losing spell penetration) much better throws, power attack
So CoT seems more sensible here, as Divine Shield's ac bonus is only a dodge ac and epic spell penetration can be always substituted with Epic Mage Armour (depending on whether a server is low or high magic). That build craves ab, damage is less important (divine might). And Epic spell penetration is highly important with 25 lvls of Sorc. No way pally goes here. Hope no other changes come into my mind with that build.
I've done a variant. Didn't delve so deep into CHA though, or even reach undispellable. Still found it effective enough.
If you want to peek.
Torms golden Girl (Sorcerer20/RDD10/CoT10)
Not so far from your concept, although they turn out somewhat different. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Quote: BAB = 14
Made a mistake. It's pre-epic bab, of course. BAB = 24
Quote: Posted 12/19/08 11:24 (GMT) -- ksipsi ...and epic spell penetration can be always substituted with Epic Mage Armour...
However, in order to achieve it one should change the level progression.
Quote: Posted 12/19/08 03:42 (GMT) -- Grimnir77
I've done a variant. Didn't delve so deep into CHA though, or even reach undispellable. Still found it effective enough.
If you want to peek.
Torms golden Girl (Sorcerer20/RDD10/CoT10)
Not so far from your concept, although they turn out somewhat different.
Yes, I've seen that build before posting the second version, though I wasn't quite sure whether to write a note concerning it. Eventually it appealed to me as a different one because: - It focuses mainly on melee valours - feat progression (excluding auto stills, penetrations and a few basic melee feats) - finishes with different abilities - class proportions do not match.
I've forgotten about a brief summarise of my build: - 30 CHA (Max 42) + all metamagic (not counting silent and quick spell) grant very nice spellpower - Epic spell penetration implies that this build can take down great deal of encounters with IGMSs and lesser ones. - Enemies with a high SR that can't be lowered with breaches/mordenkainens should be dealt with a morgenstern. 34 AB, max(+12STR and buffs): 60 AB, which is quite a good one, but nothing astonishing) - Nice AC (30 unbuffed) - Nice HP (394, max: 636)
PP. And Divine Might gives boost to damage, not to ab - which had higher priority in this build.