I've been working on a build and I'd like to know what you guys think about it. I am new to this forum and have just recently joined the guild, and some of you might even remember me from a controversial topic on another section. Anyway, I'd like to keep things civil and talk exclusively about the game, and also would appreciate it if you could give me hints on what I could do to improve this build and not only point out the weaknesses it certainly possesses due to my lack of knowledge of the game. I apologize in advance in case you think this is a rude way to start a topic, but from my previous experience (which wasn't good) it's worth a shot. I hope you guys can fill in some of the doubts I have on whether some things work the way I think they do. Live and learn, this is just the first version of the build, and I am sure there's much to be done to make it better.
I'll get to it then!
Here it is! It's playable 1-40 PVM, and I don't play online so feel free to test it PVP and let me know how it fares (although I really don't care much for PVP, I'm a RP kind of guy)
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PALADIN(26), WEAPON MASTER(8), MONK(6) Human, Lawful Good Playable 1-40 PVM
ABILITIES (ending) STR 14 DEX 13 CON 10 WIS 14 INT 13 CHA 14 (24)
AC 10 - Base +1 - Dex +8 - Tumble +8 - Full Plate +2 - Armor Skin +10 / 11 - Divine Shield +1 - Dodge (vs current target)
AC with mundane gear: 40 / 41 (+4 VS AoO from mobility, and also +2 deflection VS Evil)
You may further increase your AC by 10 with Improved Expertise, and wielding a two-handed Weapon (and therefore no shield) it's quite wise to do so sometimes.
Saves Fort: 29 Ref: 28 Will: 26
You can increase each by a good 4 points with Aura of Glory + Eagle's Splendor with a good roll.
Hit Points HP: 388 This is, I think, the weakest point of this character, he desperately needs boots of striding. I was thinking maybe on switching from Extra Turning to Toughness just to get more HP, what do you think? Is there any other way to get more life at a reasonable expense? Other than that, I think this guy is tough, right?
Take it EZ!
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 05/27/10 21:14
Oh, guys, 2 more things, if you could please help this forum noob
1- Can I add this to My Topics?
2- How do pre-epic Base Attack and Base Saves work?
Thanks!
First thing I noticed is that 6 of your Epic Level Feats are used on Feats that can be accessed Pre-Epic. I know that it cant be helped since Weapon Master is using up all of your Pre-Epic feats, but I cringe at the idea of using so many Epic Feats that way.
If you are going to go with Weapon Master, I would use more Weapon Master levels. Maybe a Paladin 16/Monk 5/Weapon Master 19 split. I would also think about using a couple levels of Monk Pre-Epic for skill dumps and other Monk goodies.
I think Cleric would provide better synergy with this type of build instead of Paladin. Overall, its painful to get all of the feats for Weapon Master without Fighter or CoT levels. Thanks for sharing your build.
Welcome. First, you invest all those feats and give up ALL those epic feats for 8 wm levels? Why? There has been, over the years here, the benefit of wm sub 10 lvls. Now, at this point in my life, i have to ask why? esp a wm/monk6!
Here's the reason. For wm, you get +1 ab at 5 or 7, cant recall at the moment. Then you get +1 at 10 then every 3 lvs thereafter. What does the monk give you, esp at lv 40? I ask cuz you go thru nwn, sou and htou without ever having clev/gr, which are very handy all the way thru.
Now, also, with wm, you need to specialize in a weapon. in which case monk isnt useful, or as useful. Now, i am one who used the monk class in an unorthodox way, but i dont understand this.
instead, i would maybe stop pal at 20 or even 15, and move the rest to wm22 plus 3 rogue levels. That gives you more ab and such (which you will need).
I know you say you have played all the way thru HOTU, which is an accomplishment. But it isnt really that hard on a character. what i mean is, just cuz a build gets through HOTU doesnt mean it is an epic one! bioware really didnt make a challenging game, infact, i slept through the hard fights with my naked armor crafting master and still beat them! lol not quite but close.
in the end, the build is your first, so at least you are thinking! Always good imo. just think on the wm thing as you WILL need ab in a 14 str build.
*most of my guild will now check to see if i truly am avado... they will ask, how can you be so easy, the dude used extra smite, extra turn, IMP expt ( ) and IMPROVE Power attack (i havent seen that feat in about 6 yrs... honestly thought it was taken out). and grab a board! * sorry that rant was for my fans.. or lack there of! just so they would know it was actually ME being "nice", relatively, so....
i suggest findin Griz or Kail or Cinn's builds (or even thax, cuz he has skill too) and read through a few dozen builds to see what i am talking about. Then, if you dare, look at Mith's builds. I warn you though, Mith is the best of the best of the best! Bioware thought so too, but after them, he really started to build some crazy ***. _________________
Quote: -- Posted by Kail Pendragon
Being hyperbolic is an integral part of Avado's being
@ galelabriel
I chose not to go further with the weapon master class for 2 reasons:
1- This way I get a lot more paladin spells per day. If I stop at Paladin 15, I have only 1 4th level slot. This way I have 3, plus 4 of all the others. Since I use freedom, Holy Sword and Death Ward, Plus 2 Prayers, Aid, Bull's Strength, Eagle's Splendor and Aura of Glory, Bless, Protection from Alignment and 2 Divine Favors.
2- Smite evil attacks with higher Paladin levels do A LOT MORE DAMAGE. If I get a critical on a Smite Evil attack, I will do A LOT OF DAMAGE! (did I say that enough? )
About the Cleric thing, when I create a character, I also come up with a story for it. This particular one is a female Paladin, and I don't really like the CoT prestige class for her, since the only thing she gets are bonus feats and saves, and her saves are high enough. This was the best I could come up with for her so far. I do not want to make profound changes in the character's concept, but tweak it here and there to make the general idea stronger (like swapping feats, taking one extra level of X and one less of Y, and so on). The way I see it, I could go 3 levels rogue, 20 levels wizard, and so on, but it wouldn't be this character, then, and I'm not that much of a hack-slasher not to care about that.
BTW: I have the story in TXT mode, if anyone is interested in reading it I'd be happy to share it.
I want to ask you this: what is the flaw in my line of thought? What am I missing? The non-epic feats can be altered, I know, like I could drop Extra Smiting and Extra Turning, but what can I get in exchange that will considerably improve my character? Thanks in advance, and I'd like to seize this opportunity to thank and congratulate everyone for their extremely well-mannered posts. NOW THAT is how it's done
Forgive my idiocy, but I don't know how to quote, that's y I always start with @ someone in my posts . One day I shall learn. Speaking of which:
@ avado
If you're not as nice with others as you're being with me, then you should try it more often, because this way you'll always get the best out of people.
I would like to add, however, that this reply consists in what I'm thinking at this moment, and that is why I'm debating (or sort of) with you. Please understand that there's a lot of things that you guys (experts as you are) may consider to be common knowledge, but that newly adjoined members, such as myself, may not know what you mean. (like Galelabriel's affirmative saying that a Cleric would have a better synergy with this build, I really don't see why, most likely because of ignorance). I would like to really understand what you mean so that I can change my point of view with a coherent basis. In other words, I don't want to be a "parrot", repeating words without really understanding them, or in this case changing my builds without knowing why. I ask you to humor me and be patient, thank you!
Now about what you said, let me divide my reply in topics, so that you can understand what I think and maybe point out why I'm wrong :
1- the problem is that I don't see any epic feats that can enhance my character or make him better than it better than it aready is. I think IE and IPA make your character much more versatile in higher evels, and with them he can adapt to different situations with ease. But Extra smiting and turning aren't really THAT much of a priority to me (although extra smiting is really nice with such a potent smite evil ) So, what to take instead? I just "cleared" room for two epic feats: which ones?
2- If you don't understand why I chose WM 8 only, it's explained in my above post, but let me try to refrase it to better respond to your specific points. I think the difference isn't really 4 BAB points, because I lose the 4 bonus points from WM but the extra Paladin Levels will get me at least 2 BAB bonus that I wouldn't have if I didn't take them (from more spells per day that enhance it), plus holy avenger lasts 11 rounds longer, as does prayer, which is also nice, and I get much more smite evil damage this way.
3- Choosing the monk class was precisely to fill in for the fact that I hat to "waste" so many feats to get the weapon master class, and I get 5 feats at level 1, including cleave, which you mentioned in your comment. I really don't see cleave being THAT useful,and I so far dislike the idea of getting greater cleave, because if an enemy is so pathetic that more than one will die in one round, then you'll be able to kill them anyway, right? Like I said in the original post, Monk gives me the CHEESE: Evasion, IKD, Monk speed. Monk AC Bonus is also nice when you lack the equipment. Rogue is DEFINITELY out of the question because of roleplay, plus you need alignment shift to qualify, and I just wouldn't do that to my creation . Please enlighten me on why my logic is flawed, so I can not only improve this specific character but my own knowledge of the game rules.
Thank you for your comments, Happy Holidays to all!!
Maybe it's the christmas spirit that is making you nice, eh avado .
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/24/08 02:12
Taking rogue would not require an alignment change, since rogues aren't restricted from any alignment. Nothing says you can't make a lawful good rogue.
You're giving up too much in return for very little with those weaponmaster levels. Without them, you could use your pre-epic feats for the pre-epic feats you crammed into epic levels. That would free you up to take Great Strength and/or Great Charisma feats. Currently, your unbuffed attack bonus is abysmal for a character with a base attack bonus of 30 (due to your 14 strength), and your charisma isn't jacked up high enough to really cover for it.
Consider what WM is giving you: +1 to your attack bonus, and a moderate bump to your critical range and damage, which you'll rarely actually benefit from, because your attack bonus is far from stellar in the first place.
If you're going to insist on keeping weaponmaster, I'd suggest making your character strength-based, at the very least.
On a lesser note, if you're going to focus on one weapon, it's better to take Epic Weapon Focus before Epic Prowess, as +2 to AB with the chosen weapon is better than the +1 you get from Epic Prowess.
Quote: by Maximilian Kane @ avado
If you're not as nice with others as you're being with me, then you should try it more often, because this way you'll always get the best out of people.
Hah, you're dreaming if you think you'll get avado to talk nice to you, only grizzled_dwarflord get such privilege. He was actually very decent in that reply, he's usually a lot meaner, probably just because you said you were new.
Quote: by Maximillian Kane About the Cleric thing, when I create a character, I also come up with a story for it. This particular one is a female Paladin...
Well, this is a big mistake man: you can't go around saying you won't make a change because it doesn't fit a story you didn't tell us anything about beforehand. If the story is not posted or has any reference about being an RP build (you said you're an RP guy, not that the build is meant for RP), then you shouldn't reply like you just did, quoted above.
As for what you said about showing the story, please do so. Whenever a build has a story we post it right next to it or right before it. Most people in this guild enjoy reading the stories on the builds, me included, when I've got free time to waste.
By the way, to quote you write "quote" between "[ ]" and close with "/quote" between "[ ]".
Quote: by Maximilian Kane I want to ask you this: what is the flaw in my line of thought? What am I missing?
I'll try to adress a few things about that.
The Monk. You say you pick the class for the cheese, but first things first. Monk cheese requires only 1 level, the other 5 are wasted there, I know you took 6 for IKD, but your AB is already low to be attempting knockdowns, I'll address the AB later.
Now the important part is what cheese are you recieving? In order to recieve WIS bonus AC you need not to wear armor, but if you'd pick Fighter instead of Monk and wear Heavy Armor your AC will end higher because your DEX and WIS are low. Unarmed fighting? cannot be selected for Weapon Master, so that leaves kama, which is a decent weapon, but you can't use shield either or you'll lose the cheese so that's less AC there.
I like kamas, (read my sig) but it's an awful weapon if you want to make critical hits, since it gets the lowest critical threat range and it doesn't has a higher multiplier to compensate, like axes have, so that's why taking a scimitar or even a greatsword works so much better. I know you took a Greatsword, but if you do so then you can't use Flurry of Blows, an important part of the cheese.
Evasion is cool, but Rogue also gets Evasion plus a better skillset, that's why avado said take Rogue.
In conclusion, the cheese you said you're taking is lost with the Greatsword and is bested by the armor and the Rogue.
Next, the Weapon Master level. I will explain to you why galabriel is right in that more WM makes the build stronger. As I said before, your AB sucks, and it sucks because your modifier for AB is strength, which is at a ridiculously low value of 14 and I bet any newb can understand that a meleer with 14 STR won't hit a bug. You have buffs, nice, but your base score is so low. Now, back into Weapon Master. Epic WM gets +1 AB every 3 levels, and that's exactly what you need the most: AB, so before IKD or bonus Paladin feats, bonus AB takes priotity, and you'll get bonus WM feats to make up the loss of bonus Paladin feats.
I'd like to tell you that almost any good Weapon Master build get an unbuffed AB higher than 45, (if I'm correct, a Weapon Master can reach an unbuffed AB of about 53) so, comparing, your AB is low as hell, I hope this aids you notice it. In my opinion, you need 40 unbuffed AB to say your AB is good (or be a Cleric, that class can really buff AB).
So, I would lower both Paladin and Monk in favor of Weapon Master to raise that AB.
Finally, the feats. There is a very important reason why everyone on the guild will be complaining about you taking pre-epic feats in epic levels. You just said you don't find important epic feats and that was your biggest mistake in your replies. In my melee builds I always try to free all epic feats so I can take the general feats as Great Strength, a feat wanted by all meleers. Now, you can take all your general epic feats as Great Strength because no class has it as bonus feat, and as such you leave Epic Prowess and Epic Weapon Focus for the bonus feats, which any melee class has in the bonus feat list, to end with a higher AB and damage.
Now for my suggestions: drop Power Attack, Improved Power Attack, Improved Expertise, Extra Turning, and well, I'll let you stay with Extra Smiting, just because your CHA is high-ish, (but I'd be tempted to drop it along with Armor skin for two more Great Strength, both ways are fine methinks). WHY!? because they suck, as simple as that. With your AB as bad as it is Improved Expertise and Improved Power Attack just means "I don't want to hit", they will never work, same for Power Attack, and well, Extra Turning is completely useless with so many Paladin levels, seriously. Those 4 feats are just a big mistake, find something better to fit there or just place Great Strength.
You made a noobish mistake as well with your feat order, you're taking Epic Prowess before Epic Weapon Focus, and that sould never be done, EWF gives +2 and EP gives +1, both are in the bonus epic feat list of both Paladin and Weapon Master. _________________
Quote: Posted 12/19/06 19:54 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Thax the Shadow Dragon sez: MONKS USE KAMAS. Just ask him.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/24/08 05:37
Quote: Posted 12/24/08 02:07 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
1- the problem is that I don't see any epic feats that can enhance my character or make him better than it better than it aready is. I think IE and IPA make your character much more versatile in higher evels, and with them he can adapt to different situations with ease. But Extra smiting and turning aren't really THAT much of a priority to me (although extra smiting is really nice with such a potent smite evil ) So, what to take instead? I just "cleared" room for two epic feats: which ones?
You are right. Imp power attack is GODLY! the -10 ab is so worth while in a build with NO str (14 is just about NO str). Imp expt, again cuz you have so much ab to loose. Extra turn and smite.. you are a smiter. THey should come in pre-epic because you give up an epic feat for them... nevermind. That's the reason and im stickin to it!
Quote: 2- If you don't understand why I chose WM 8 only, it's explained in my above post, but let me try to refrase it to better respond to your specific points. I think the difference isn't really 4 BAB points, because I lose the 4 bonus points from WM but the extra Paladin Levels will get me at least 2 BAB bonus that I wouldn't have if I didn't take them (from more spells per day that enhance it), plus holy avenger lasts 11 rounds longer, as does prayer, which is also nice, and I get much more smite evil damage this way.
THis is my bad. I failed to say that i wasnt refering to 8wm vs 0wm, it is 8 vs 7wm! The one extra level of wm makes no sense. Its like taking 11 rdd levels. With wm, it is best to go BIG or not at all, UNLESS there is a reason for 7, ex. cleric dispel reasons or something.
Quote: 3- Choosing the monk class was precisely to fill in for the fact that I hat to "waste" so many feats to get the weapon master class, and I get 5 feats at level 1, including cleave, which you mentioned in your comment. I really don't see cleave being THAT useful,and I so far dislike the idea of getting greater cleave, because if an enemy is so pathetic that more than one will die in one round, then you'll be able to kill them anyway, right? Like I said in the original post, Monk gives me the CHEESE: Evasion, IKD, Monk speed. Monk AC Bonus is also nice when you lack the equipment. Rogue is DEFINITELY out of the question because of roleplay, plus you need alignment shift to qualify, and I just wouldn't do that to my creation . Please enlighten me on why my logic is flawed,
what Thax said. lol. I was drinkin when i was talkin bout gr cleave. Cleave is GODLY (no joke) in a melee build. An extra FREE shot is always nice to get. Gr cleave should only be used for Dev crit. maybe ill put it another way, if you had put Cleave into an epic feat slot, instead of imp power att, imp expt or whatever else you did, NOT ONE OF US would complain! MAYBE a question as to why not pre, BUT we know its a wm build, so taking CLEAVE epic is ok.
Why is what logic flawed? Low melee build with monk vs wm? That rogue requires an alignment shift? what do you mean?
The difficulty you are having is that you have only played biowares junk. Bioware has to make the game child like in order to sell the game. Those of us here mostly play or design for online. NOT pvp per se, but in pws where you can have areas designed for a party of 6 REAL lv 40 players. Your build, in that situation, wont even notice the divine damage, cuz you will miss ALOT. How do i know? I spent the better part of 2006 TRYING to make a decent charisma paladin! i tried ALOT of combos. The only one that really works is a pal/wm22 with rogue mixed in. That is a GODLY build (iirc it was one of Griz's - ZIP IT THAX! ).
Quote: so I can not only improve this specific character but my own knowledge of the game rules.
no, you build a build with what you know. YOU IMPROVE it with the help of others. Dont believe me? Check this one out Click Here
The main guy, MITH, is a LEGEND here. He didnt start that way (notice the edit partner). It takes alot of time to learn the intricacies and we all had to do it. You NEVER get anywhere alone (yes thax, I said that. I have no idea why im bein so freakin nice!)
lmao, i can never stop being blunt though. ah well. _________________
Quote: -- Posted by Kail Pendragon
Being hyperbolic is an integral part of Avado's being
OK, Thanks for tips, guys.
I won't use any levels of rogue in this character, but I have no problem in dropping Monk levels for WM ones, but I am reluctant to drop any Paladin levels. I like the Smite Evil damage, the extra spell slots and the long spell durations. So let me ask you a question: How many spell slots would I lose if I dropped from Paladin 26 to Paladin 20? I guess I could live without IKD and monk speed, but it really restricts this guy's effectiveness VS casters, doesn't it?
I can drop IPA, IE, Extra Turning and Extra Smiting (I will do it with a tear in my eye) for Great Strength IV, but I must have at least Power Attack and Expertise for versatility. And with the bonus AB that I will be getting from the STR and extra WM levels I think I can make up for it, right? About the EP before EWF, it was because I wasn't sure if EP counted as a bonus feat for Paladins, that's why I chose it first. Now that I know it, obviously that will change. I will make the alterations, see how they go and then post the character's 2nd version here. It would be something like: Paladin (20) / Monk 1 / Weapon Master (19). I'll get to it ASAP!
Thanks for the help!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/24/08 10:42
Concerning the build as posted, Thax offers great advice.
Concerning the concept as I understand it (still sans story), I think a pally/rogue/CoT would work much better (that is, if you don't get all caught up w/ rogue stereotypes...). Yes, you lose out on all the WM goodness, but you are no longer feat starved. Indeed, you're fairly well set featwise. You can split STR and CHA, and use your epic feats to get decent scores in each, and have a better smite, as CoT counts as pally levels for smiting purposes. You get evasion, and the great rogue skill set, including UMD (which, IMO, is the big thing that makes it preferable to monk), w/ a few fewer levels (depending on how many dumps you want. You get great saves, and the same spells. Pally26/CoT10/Rogue4. It's a beauty.
Generally though, I wouldn't call the build as posted awful by any means. Well, AB is awful, and imp exp, and imp PA, are certainly wasted, but the concept isn't really horribly bad. I'm not a fan of WM7(8)* builds, especially without fighter or CoT levels, and for that reason alone I'd recommend against the concept, but they're still not that bad. Some tweaks and you might have a playable build.
*Psst, avado, the only reason to take wm8 is for a final listen dump, especially when that last level wouldn't serve much of a purpose anywhere else, which methinks is here the case...
Entirely off topic, I just noticed that I apparently have two login names. this is "onioneater." normally I'm "onion eater." Wonder when that happened?
Quote: Posted 12/24/08 10:38 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane I won't use any levels of rogue in this character...
Quote: ...but I have no problem in dropping Monk levels for WM ones, but I am reluctant to drop any Paladin levels.
You're going to have to come up with at least eight more WM levels, if not eleven. But, as you've noticed...
Quote: I like the Smite Evil damage
Yup. That's the price you pay. Not a bad reason to drop WM altogether...
Quote: How many spell slots would I lose if I dropped from Paladin 26 to Paladin 20?
Zero.
Quote: I guess I could live without IKD and monk speed, but it really restricts this guy's effectiveness VS casters, doesn't it?
Meh, a little, but you can't have anything. As is he's ineffective against everyone else, so how he does vs. casters is pretty inconsequential. Also, you already lose the monk speed, as you're wearing armor.
Quote: I can drop IPA, IE, Extra Turning and Extra Smiting (I will do it with a tear in my eye) for Great Strength IV, but I must have at least Power Attack and Expertise for versatility.
Yeah, well, you can't drop Expertise. I love PA, but w/out a much better AB, it's a bit wasted. I suppose there are always doors, and the times you need a 20 anyways, which I suppose should be often enough.
Quote: And with the bonus AB that I will be getting from the STR and extra WM levels I think I can make up for it, right?
Not really. A bit. It helps.
Quote: I'll get to it ASAP!
Well, what are you waiting for!
Incidentally, this thread probably belongs in the "build requests" forum. It's not really so much a finished build, but rather a request for help. Nothin' wrong with that, just IMO it's in the wrong place. Some of us do so like our organizational procedures.
Edited By onioneater on 12/24/08 10:51
I apologize for my ignorance of not knowing where to post this topic. I had seen quite a few character threads (like Kail Pendragon's Dragon [druid 30 CoT 4 Monk 6]) where people post alternate versions of the original characters in the same thread, so I thought here would be ok. If you move this thread, please send me a link to where you relocate it so that I can continue to participate in ths exciting exchange of ideas. The best news of all is that I redid the character taking into account what you guys said, and was able to get GR STR IV AND still keep my beloved Extra Smiting and Armor Skin, due to the extra feat from Epic WM 3 instead of the 2 epic pally feats. Here's the altered version.
And honestly, LAWFUL ROGUES?????? NEVER!!!
IMPROVED VERSION
Paladin (20) / Weapon Master (19) / Monk (1)
RACE: Human
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Good
STARTING STATS:
STR - 14 (+2) DEX - 13 (+1) CON - 10 (0) WIS - 14 (+2) INT - 13 (+1) CHA - 14 (+2)
ENDING STATS:
STR - 18 (+4) DEX - 13 (+1) CON - 10 (0) WIS - 14 (+2) INT - 13 (+1) CHA - 24 (+7)
BASIC STATS:
Hit Points: 398
Skillpoints: 184
Saving Throws: (Fort/Ref/Will): 28/27/25
AC: (naked/full plate): 23/29 (+1 dodge)
BAB: 30
AB (unbuffed with mundane greatsword): 42
Spellcasting: Paladin (20)
LEVELING GUIDE:
1- Paladin - WF (Greatsword), Dodge 2- Paladin 3- Paladin - Mobility 4- Paladin - CHA +1 (15) 5- Paladin 6- Paladin - Expertise 7- Paladin 8- Paladin - CHA +1 (16) 9- Paladin - Spring Attack 10- Paladin 11- Paladin 12- Paladin - Whirlwind Attack, CHA +1 (17) 13- Paladin 14- Paladin 15- Paladin - IC (Greatsword) (intimidate 4 ranks to qualify for WM) 16- Paladin - CHA +1 (18) 17- Weapon Master 18- Weapon Master - Power Attack 19- Weapon master 20- Weapon Master - CHA +1 (19) 21- Weapon Master - Great Strength I (15) 22- Weapon Master 23- Weapon Master 24- Weapon Master - Great Strength II (16), CHA +1 (20) 25- Weapon Master 26- Weapon Master 27- Paladin - Divine Shield 28- Weapon Master - CHA +1 (21) 29- Weapon Master 30- Paladin - Divine Might 31- Weapon Master - Epic Weapon Focus (Greatsword) 32- Weapon Master - CHA +1 (22) 33- Weapon Master - Great Strength III (17) 34- Weapon Master - Epic Prowess 35- Weapon Master 36- Weapon Master - Great Strength IV (18), CHA +1 (23) 37- Weapon Master - Armor Skin 38- Paladin 39- Paladin - Extra Smiting 40- Monk - CHA +1 (24)
You may further increase your damage by 5 with Power Attack
AC with mundane gear: 40 / 41 (+4 VS AoO from mobility, and also +2 deflection VS Evil)
10 - Base +1 - Dex +8 - Tumble +8 - Full Plate +1 - Dodge (vs current target) +2 - Armor Skin +10 / 11 - Divine Shield
You may further increase your AC by 5 with Expertise
SAVES:
Fort - 28 Ref - 27 Will - 25
You can increase each by a good 4 points with Aura of Glory + Eagle's Splendor with a good roll.
HP: 398 unbuffed and unbuffable (1d8 from Aid doesn't really count )
How about now, is it more to your liking?
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/24/08 14:30
I've read the Magic Marauder's story and mine isn't quite like that. I create a past, a story that led that character to the life of an adventurer, before even choosing a "build". I will post it here, tell me what you think of it.
Take it EZ!!
" Princess Natalya Salomon was reported missing from the royal castle of Salamonis three years ago. Parties were sent out to look for her and a substantial reward was offered to anyone who could provide information on her whereabouts, but despite all the efforts, she was never found. Over one year after her disappearance, she was declared officially dead, and a big memorial was held in her name. The truth behind her mysterious disappearance would remain unknown to all, except herself and very few others.
At that time she was young and foolish, and fell in love with a famed hero who visited the city often. One night, when he was in town, she spiked her personal guard's water and snuck out of her room, proceeding to his chambers where she discovered his most terrible secret. When she entered his room, she saw him drinking blood from a cup, his fangs unnaturally grown and his face deformed, and before she could even scream, he bit her, turning her into a vampire as well. He loved her too, and was tired of being alone, so when she woke up, he begged her for forgiveness, saying he had no choice. She was confused and could not bring herself to forgive him. Scared and in shame, she fled the castle, leaving everything behind forever.
Natalya was not herself anymore, feeling a growing need to feed, she knew it was a matter of time before she lost control. She decided that if she was going to hurt people, they should at least deserve it, so she headed to Blacksand, the outlaw city, ruled by a vicious but legendary pirate who called himself Lord Azzur. There, she gave in to her hunger. For approximately a year, she lurked in the shadows and lived like an animal. She fed on the scum that inhabited that accursed place, until one day, something that touched the deepest of her feelings happened, making her want to be human once again.
A caravan bearing the flag of Salamonis arrived at Blacksand, led by her father, King Salomon himself. It was his last desperate attempt to find her. He looked older, and much more weary than she remembered, even though only a year had passed since she left. She was stunned for a few moments, and he looked her straight in the eyes, but didn't recognize her. Her skin was pale, scarred, her hair was tied behind her head, dirty, as if forgotten, her teeth reeked of decay from all the feeding and her face was deformed from the transformation. She quickly turned around and ran to an alley, where for the first time since her disappearance, she cried. Her own father didn't recognize her! What had she become? With the wisdom that one can expect from a sixteen year-old, she decided it was time to leave the continent.
After making a few arrangements, Natalya managed to become part of an expedition to the mysterious continent of Khul, from where no ship had ever returned. For six months, she sailed, not being able to feed out of fear that her secret would be revealed. During that time, she recovered some of her lost humanity and for the first time, she believed she had a choice. One day, they sailed into a dense grey fog that covered the entire place, but before they could turn around, the ship crashed against a strange formation of black rock she had never seen before. The impact was so violent that the ship was torn in half, and entire crew was killed, except for her, as she could not be killed by natural means. She fed on the remains of the crew in order to gather strength to explore the place, but this time she didn't do it as an animal, she did it consciously, for there was no other choice.
In a few hours, the fog dissipated, and the night came. She traveled all night long into the unknown land, resting during the day. It was several weeks before she even saw any signs of civilization. She had gone through endless mountains and into a dense tropical forest, where she saw a small hut. Carefully, she approached it and saw light through the windows. Unaware of her surroundings, she stepped on a rope, triggering a trap. A thick net closed itself around her, lifting her helpless body into the air. The door opened and an old elven man came out. He looked at her and smiled, saying something in an unknown language and then laughing. She tried to tell him that she didn't understand, and to her surprise, he spoke in common: "I said that this trap was meant for bears, so you must be the most beautiful bear I've ever captured". She wasn't sure how to react, but the next thing he said calmed her suspicions a bit: "I am Praetus, High priest of Heironeus, God of Valor, and who might you be, young one?". "Natalya, just Natalya.", she replied. "So, how does a beautiful young woman such as yourself end up in my bear trap?", he kindly asked. She told him about the expedition and the shipwreck, making up an excuse for the fact that she was alive and unharmed while everyone else was dead. He then brought her down, offered her a cup of tea and shelter for as long as she needed.
There, in the middle of the woods in an unknown continent, she felt at home for the first time since she fled the castle. She helped Praetus with his daily routine and at night they talked for hours by the fireplace. She learned that the god he worshipped was almost forgotten, all of his temples were in ruins and he was the last priest alive, fearing that Heironeus' words of wisdom would die with him. After a few months, she told him about her condition, and for the next year, they worked on developing a potion to control the hunger and supress the effects of the curse. He taught her all about Heironeus and trained her in the art of combat, but she wasn't wise enough to become a priest, so he intensified her physical training to make her a paladin. She found a new reason to live during these months, and sealed her choice by taking an oath on the last day of her training.
After she finished pronouncing her oath, Praetus said: "The same power that has kept me alive brought you to me. It is up to you now to maintain his teachings alive. After all these years, I can finally rest. Thank you for giving this old man peace at last.". Then he was truck by a beam of light and disappeared, never to be seen again. Strangely, she didn't feel any sadness. Instead, a strong sense of duty filled her heart. She could not fail. For the next two months, she focused her training on controlling her curse, to a point where she could transform at will. She could choose whom to unleash her rage upon, but the longer she remained as a vampire, the harder it was for her to retain control and to return to her human self, so she decided she would only use that ability in extreme circumstances. When she was ready, she left the hut behind, searching for other civilized lands to spread Heironeus' teachings..."
Lookin' a lot more impressive now, sir. Good job. _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
k, i didnt post the maurader for the story! LOL only for the FACT that great MITH, in the beginning of his building career, needed help
The new version REALLY does have cheese! 1 monk levl! Nice. Im smellin Gooda??
oh, and excellent job taking advice AND stickin to your guns!
btw, rogue isnt an alignment. Rogue is more like a set of skills (says the power builder!). There was a "what type of DnD character are you" test a while back. I came up with a Paladin/rogue, no ***! Click Here follow the links!
I cant remember where the pal/rog discussion went, but it was an interesting topic. I could go into it more, but alas, i am hyperbolic as it is _________________
Quote: -- Posted by Kail Pendragon
Being hyperbolic is an integral part of Avado's being
Three brief things:
I now notice you are not taking listen, which leads me to wonder why you took WM8 in the first version, but that is inconsequential now, as the changes make more sense.
There's nothing inherently non-lawful about a rogue, and I don't just mean according to the rules. Politician, anyone? The possibilities are limitless, save for preconceived notions and backward stereotypes. Just sayin'.
Great Smiting comes awfully late. Sure you wouldn't rather have it when you take PA? Ditto w/ the Divine feats. For a guy w/ so much CHA, you don't make great use of it until mid epics. I know that some of that is unavoidable, but you can at least push PA back.
@ onion eater
About the old WM thing, consider the alternative: Pally 27, useless, Monk 7, useless, WM 8 +1 Ki damage = ALMOST USELESS. There's your explanation .
True, I should take Extra Smiting earlier. Perhaps I could take the last Pally level before 39th (at level 30, maybe?), therefore pushing forward Great Strength 4 and a +1 AB from more WM levels, counting on the fact that Bull's Strength is 1d4 "+1", so instead of having 2 chances of getting my str modifier up by 2, I could have one chance in four and still enjoy the benefits from both Power Attack and Extra Smiting ^^!
Thanks!! Perhaps you could edit this one as well Kail? When you have time of course!
I'd like to thank everyone for helping me improve this character. I can't wait to solve the error that is keeping me from playing The Aielund Saga to try it out!
I'd appreciate it if you guys could help me solve it. Everytime I try to start the module, an error message appears saying "Could not load module - Missing required custom talk table". Thanks in advance!
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/24/08 20:12
Quote: Posted 12/24/08 20:07 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane About the old WM thing, consider the alternative: Pally 27, useless, Monk 7, useless, WM 8 +1 Ki damage = ALMOST USELESS. There's your explanation .
Meh, the pally level at least gives you duration on your spells. An extra ki damage is about as worthwhile as SF: parry.
Quote: I'd appreciate it if you guys could help me solve it. Everytime I try to start the module, an error message appears saying "Could not load module - Missing required custom talk table". Thanks in advance!
You need the CEP, 1.53, IIRC.
Quote: by grizz's fan #1 i tried ALOT of combos. The only one that really works is a pal/wm22 with rogue mixed in. That is a GODLY build (iirc it was one of Griz's - ZIP IT THAX! ).
What? Like I would say something about it ...
Quote: by Maximilian Kane I can drop IPA, IE, Extra Turning and Extra Smiting (I will do it with a tear in my eye) for Great Strength IV, but I must have at least Power Attack and Expertise for versatility.
Nobody said to drop Expertise, it's necesary to qualify for Weapon Master, the rest is up to you, but I still think Extra Smiting is better than Power Attack for a build with so much charisma.
Quote: by onioneater *Psst, avado, the only reason to take wm8 is for a final listen dump, especially when that last level wouldn't serve much of a purpose anywhere else, which methinks is here the case...
Not really, Monk has Listen as class skill.
Quote: by some dude with "onion" and "eater" in his name Entirely off topic, I just noticed that I apparently have two login names. this is "onioneater." normally I'm "onion eater." Wonder when that happened?
Bioware knows one onion eater is not enough.
Well, the new build is better. I forgot to tell you though, that while lowering Monk to 1 keeps all the cheese, it's bad for playability. If I were to level up this build I'd lower 1 Paladin for 1 Monk so that you can take the cheese and the skills a lot earlier.
Sadly, your story was not to my liking. I'm the kind of dude that likes sadistic killings and such. I can't concieve a vampire "uncursing" into a Paladin, it's too corny. _________________
Quote: Posted 05/09/08 07:26 (GMT) -- avado
THax, you know i love and respect you, right?
He can't drop Power Attack. Isn't that necessary for Divine Might and Divine Shield?
@ Thax
I'm sorry that you don't like my story. I think it's quite awesome and suits my style. I like coherence in all my stuff, and sadistic killings don't very much fit into this description. Basically you'd like something more of the genre of the movie SAW (1,2,3,4, whatever, they're all the same). I prefer personal "drama", and emotional stuff. If it wasn't for the limited letter's I'd be a lot more specific too! ^^
I do realize that this character is sufferable in the first few levels, both for the low ability scores and the "not taking good feats to qualify for weapon master". However, I prefer to make powerful friends (henchmen im my case since I don't play online) or be cautious earlier on and have more level 40 power, but I know what you mean, it would definitely make the character more playable, but you'd lose level 20 pally, and therefore 1 level 4 and 1 level 3 spell (If i'm not wrong) for basically deflect arrows and early cheese . IMO it's not worth the trade.
Anyway, I'm really satisfied with the way it is now!
I think avado answered your question like no other could...
@ onioneater or onion eater (whichever you prefer)
I downloaded the CEP v1.52 full and installed it, then got the v1.53.rar and extracted the .hak file to the hak directory inside the NWN folder. Then I tried to run the modules and they still didn't work. The Aielund Saga had a different error message, however: "Missing required HAK file - please check the file log for more details". I must add that my version of the game is 1.69. Can you please tell me what I need to do? Thanks!!!!
BTW: I also tried to run the World of Greyhawk, but it showed the same error message as before. I will now download the CEP v2.1 to see if that will work.
Take it EZ!
Aielund also requires the EMS.hak (or the EMSfake.hak, renamed to EMS.hak). Do you have that? If so, make sure you put all the CEP files in the right place. .Haks go in your hak folder, .tlks in your tlk, and .erfs in your erf. If you don't have any of those folders, just make them.
WoG is up to CEP2.2. It will soon be 2.2b. CEP is just coming out with some updates, so there is a bit of shuffling. Once they get this version under control, nothing should change for quite a while.
Quote: Posted 12/25/08 13:57 (GMT) -- avado pa is a feat i have to take but have NEVER used, ever!
That's a shame, especially w/ our beloved clerics. Not like you don't have AB to burn. I very much like PA in a build, and will even take it when it's not a pre-req, if I can. It's a good feat.
@ Onion Eater
I checked the folder, and it's not there. I also tried googling a place to download the file but I couldn't. Do you think you could e-mail it to me? If so, please send me a PM and I'll reply it to you with my e-mail address (I don't know how to find users in this forum, sorry). Thanks!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/25/08 22:59
[url=http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Hakpaks.Detail&id=5037]EMS(/quote). Note that the system includes many changes to the spell system (which is the intent). While some are IMO good changes, I'd sooner throw that baby out with the bathwater. In order to do so, you have to rename the EMSfake file EMS.hak and have that in your hak folder. That way the system won't be in use, but you can still play Aielund.
Btw, there's a link for the EMS on the Aielund page in the vault. Many mods require additional haks, and the vast majority of time this will be notated on the same page where you DL the mod.
I'm going to go ahead and assume that you were able to find the various CEPs you need and get them in the right place. If not, post and someone'll help ya out. It's worth noting that you can have several (if not all) versions of CEP on your machine at the same time, and the game will only pay attention to the one used by the mod you are currently playing.
And incidentally, things like this are exactly the reason this post is in the wrong forum. In theory, this forum is for finished builds to be critiqued. We've stumbled long off topic. This type of stuff can go in the general NWN forum.
So sue me, I like a bit of organization.
I apologize for that, but you mst understand my frustration. Regardless, thanks for the help. I will ask no futher questions about this. Plus the build is already imroved quite a bit. In fact I'm playing it again now. Now we only need to wait for Kail to edit the few modifications not only to the title, making it Paladin (20) / Monk (1) / Weapon Master (19), but to the "improved version of the build".
Take it EZ!
Quote: Posted 12/25/08 20:52 (GMT) -- onion eater
Quote: Posted 12/25/08 13:57 (GMT) -- avado pa is a feat i have to take but have NEVER used, ever!
That's a shame, especially w/ our beloved clerics. Not like you don't have AB to burn. I very much like PA in a build, and will even take it when it's not a pre-req, if I can. It's a good feat.
lmao! oh my. I thought you knew what you were talkin bout til this! jk
PA gives you +5 damage.. ohh. For the -5 ab, when a cleric can cast +5 damage with no worries at all.. I have thought about a cleric using div fav to offset the PA ab minus to get +10 damage for same ab (-5 p +5 div fav). It always ends up that i kill things too quickly anyway for PA... maybe you havent been introduced to clerics... LOL _________________
Quote: -- Posted by Kail Pendragon
Being hyperbolic is an integral part of Avado's being
Quote: Posted 12/26/08 17:40 (GMT) -- avado It always ends up that i kill things too quickly anyway for PA... maybe you havent been introduced to clerics... LOL
Wait, so, the reason you don't like PA is that it makes you kill things too quickly? I can't really argue with that, I guess. It certainly does.
Edited By onion eater on 12/26/08 20:04
Thax, you gotta stop quoting me like most ministers quote the Biblw Read the WHOLE line.. i NEVER used PA because i find that i ALREADY kill things to fast to remember to hit the PA feat activation... I am guessing it is a learned skill, i am talking about clerics! Somethin i have never passed on to you!
ah well... _________________
Quote: -- Posted by Kail Pendragon
Being hyperbolic is an integral part of Avado's being
What's UP!
I'm posting this to tell you some things and also to ask you a question.
1- I've made some minor tweaks to the order in which I get certain things to make this build more playable earlier on (without any level 40 losses). Here's a list:
- Take Expertise at level 3 and mobility at level 6. Expertise is really useful to tank damage while your henchmen / party kill things. I killed the entire bandit gang from the Aielund Saga like this. They needed to roll a 20 to hit me .
- Take Improved Critical at level 9 and push forward spring attack and whirlwind attack.
- Put the first 2 stat points in STR for more chances to hit and more damage and then instead of Great Strength IV, get Great Strength II and Great Charisma II on epic levels.
2- The question: Is it ok if I create a new topic to post the improved and tweaked version of this character? I won't do it if I'm not supposed to. If not, could any of the authorized people correct the build title (and place the tweaked version on the description? Thanks!
Quote: by avado Thax, you gotta stop quoting me like most ministers quote the Biblw Read the WHOLE line.. i NEVER used PA because i find that i ALREADY kill things to fast to remember to hit the PA feat activation... I am guessing it is a learned skill, i am talking about clerics! Somethin i have never passed on to you!
Huh? who you're talking to? I wasn't aware "onion eater" looked any similar to my name... I mean, how can you misread "Thaxll'ssyllia"? it's like the easiest word in the dictionary.
Right, it was my mistake to say to drop pwoer Attack, it's needed for Divine Might, so, let's leave it at that. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Quote: Posted 12/27/08 22:35 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane 2- The question: Is it ok if I create a new topic to post the improved and tweaked version of this character? I won't do it if I'm not supposed to. If not, could any of the authorized people correct the build title (and place the tweaked version on the description? Thanks!
Post in the Builds Request forum all ya like. That's what it's there for. If you're lookin' for advice on a build, that's the place to be. I think the NWN general forum is also acceptable, but you're much more likely to find people w/ the right frame of mind posting here. Over there you're gonna get a lot of "play a halfling paladin," or "Paladins can't be rogues," or all that other nonsense (heh... no insult intended, kinda...).
Anyways, yeah, as far as I know, that's probably the best place. It may not be the most visited forum ever, but as you have seen, there are still people who come by and like to point out mistakes and also push their own views on what works, and what does not work, in this great game of ours.
I think these threads should have been in the request forum. Maybe post your next one there first? _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
@ onion eater & FinneousPJ
Please be patient. I did read the rules before posting, and at the time of posting I thought the builds were OK because I only had the HOTU and SOU mods available to test them. Now I have the Aielund Saga, which is supposed to be harder, so my testing will be more accurate. Also I'm learning a lot of new tricks by exchanging ideas with you people, so everytime I make a new build it will be better. If you want, then I'll post my builds there first, as long as you promise to look at them there as well and give me your insightful advice. As I said, I am growing as a builder, but still am far from where you are in terms of knowledge of the game rules and synergy between skills.
The next one I'm not sure I will need to post at all, since it's a version of The Mystic Master (or Magic Master, I can never remember which one it is) from Crispy Critter (Wiz 23 / Clr 15 / Monk 2), which was inspired, I believe, in Thax's build (Wiz 21 / Clr 17 / Monk 2).
I have already sent a message to Kail Pendragon regarding both these topics. Since you are also a moderator, Finneous, I will send an exact copy to you as well, and then you can tell Kail that you'll handle this one. What do you say?
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/28/08 14:44
Quote: Posted 12/28/08 08:28 (GMT) -- onion eater -snip- Over there you're gonna get a lot of "play a halfling paladin," or "Paladins can't be rogues," or all that other nonsense (heh... no insult intended, kinda...). -snip-
Heh, not from me. I am one of those who plays paladin with non-lawful good classes. That reminds me.. I think I should go through my builds once again and pull one of them out if they are still there and providing that it hasn't been done but at this point I am pretty sure most are.
Ah, almost forgot... welcome and as you can see, we have good people here, of course some are crazy But hey, we love that stuff eh? It takes a crazy one to come up with unorthodox and great builds.
Anuis _________________ - Epic Character Builders Guild
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).
I can't really argue with that, I guess. It certainly does.
.
That reminds me.. I think I should go through my builds once again and pull one of them out if they are still there and providing that it hasn't been done but at this point I am pretty sure most are.
But hey, we love that stuff eh? It takes a crazy one to come up with unorthodox and great builds.