I'm excited for the help I recieved from you guys with the first character I posted on this forum and the level of improvement I was able to achieve. Now I kinda feel more confident in my character creation skills (or should I say less ignorant? ), and would like to share another build I came up with recently. I have seen some similar builds, but nothing with this level distribution (which is kind of odd because IMO it's the best possible one), the one I liked most was from Grizzled Dwarflord, but I don't know how to add links to the post, so I can't show you which one.
I've played the beginning of the SOU campaign and most of the HOTU. I know it's not a REAL test for any build, before you say anything, but before I can solve the problems with The Aielund Saga, that is all I have to go with. The real test to this build will be showing it to you people, but I'm really confident that you'll like this one (at least better than you liked the previous one).
One more thing: I know I said I hated LAWFUL ROGUES, and I still do, but when I thought of this build, I had no story in mind, which gave me enough room to go through with it. Here it is:
THE SILENT DEATH DEALER - RANGER (21) / MONK (2) / ROGUE (17) Elf, Lawful Neutral
ABILITIES(ending) STR 14 DEX 16 (30) CON 12 WIS 14 INT 14 CHA
SPECIAL NOTES If you want a PVP version of this character, swap the Favored Enemies I picked for the core D&D PC races. You could also swap Armor Skin for Epic Prowess, and replace Power Attack, which I chose to be able to do more damage against enemies that are immune to critical hits, for a feat of your choice (called shot, perhaps).
ADVANCED STATS & NOTES AB AB: 41 (dual wield)
Attacks: 41/36/31/26 (Main hand), 41/36 (Off hand), +1 at 41 from Blinding Speed.
AB Buffs:
+1 - Aid +3 - Blade Thirst (2x) +1 / 2 - Cat's Grace +4 - If target is successfully knocked down +7 - VS Favored Enemies
Buffed AB: 50/51 (57/58 VS Favored Enemies)
Damage He should have a damage output of 1-4 +2 (15-20/x2) on each hand, buffable as follows:
+3 from Blade Thirst + (2d6+5) - VS Favored Enemies +9d6 - Sneak Attack +5 - Power Attack
AC AC with mundane gear: 32
+4 Blinding Speed +1 / 2 - Cat's Grace
Buffed AC with no gear: 37/38
This guy relies a lot more on magic items than my previously posted character: The Holy Weapon Master With Cheese. He has some interesting combos, though: High Hide and Move Silently scores + Camouflage and Mass Camouflage for him AND his panther. The panther does 10d6 of Sneak Attack damage, and is very useful to keep you alive while you struggle through the early levels. I would recommend that you use a shield in the first levels and only begin to dual wield when you get Improved Critical for your Kukris.
So, did I actually achieve something?
Take it EZ!
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 04/29/09 18:10
Why didn't you take Epic Dodge? You have plenty of rogue levels AND plenty of dexterity.
I wouldn't have bothered with Power Attack, especially since you don't currently seem to have Blind Fight.
You're also looking at experience penalties once you take a level in something else, which in itself isn't necessarily a huge deal.
Edit: Now that I look closer, you don't appear to have handled your rogue bonus feats properly.
Edited By TheSupremeForce on 12/25/08 23:59
Quote: Posted 12/25/08 23:36 (GMT) -- TheSupremeForce Why didn't you take Epic Dodge? You have plenty of rogue levels AND plenty of dexterity.
Seriously. Gotta do it. All you have to do is fit in defensive roll and ED. Blinding Speed can be dropped in a heartbeat. It's useless if you can get haste via another means, and even if you can't, a 1x/day haste is hardly worth the feat.
Quote: I wouldn't have bothered with Power Attack, especially since you don't currently seem to have Blind Fight.
*nods*
Quote: You're also looking at experience penalties once you take a level in something else, which in itself isn't necessarily a huge deal.
*nods again* This may, or may not, be a problem. My general feeling is that in a PW XP penalties are acceptable, but in a SP mod, not so much. If there's a limited amount of XP available, you'll end up lower level than you would be otherwise, which is really quite a bad thing. You could easily do without the monk here. CoT, for feats and saves, might not be a bad alternative. If you want to mess w/ your feats, SD could be fun too.
Personally, I would take a few rogue levels earlier, mostly for the skill dumps. It sets you back one BAB, and also delays BoE, so I can fully accept the argument otherwise, but I'd rather have my skill dumps. Plus, you could take a rogue level first, netting you a bunch more skill points.
Personally, elf is a yucky choice here. It gets you very little, guarantees you an XP penalty (even if you swap out monk), and costs you CON, which hurts (hah). I'd go human, or halfling.
Why is concentration maxed? Facing a lot of taunts?
Discipline sans a decent str and/or an ESF is pretty useless. I'd either get the ESF or drop it altogether. Actually, I'd just drop it altogether. Even w/ the ESF you'll still be a bit shaky.
Quote: I wouldn't have bothered with Power Attack, especially since you don't currently seem to have Blind Fight.
I don't have blind fight because I have the Invisibility Purge and Ultravision spells. I thought of taking Power Attack because I'd be doing VERY LITTLE damage to cratures that are immune to criticals, and there power attack could come in handy, especially if I'm fighting creatures with Damage reduction and / or Slashing Damage Rasistance. I say this because this guy is a "Jack of one trade". If he can't sneak attack the s*** out of his enemy, he's got very little else to do.
Quote: Why didn't you take Epic Dodge? You have plenty of rogue levels AND plenty of dexterity.
Quote: Seriously. Gotta do it. All you have to do is fit in defensive roll and ED. Blinding Speed can be dropped in a heartbeat. It's useless if you can get haste via another means, and even if you can't, a 1x/day haste is hardly worth the feat.
First, I didn't take dodge or defensive roll, therefore I didn't qualify for Epic Dodge. I could get rid of blinding speed in a heartbeat, but getting rid of Power Attack would mean signing a "terms of uselessness" against anything that is immune to criticals (and that includes Pale Masters). Still, Epic Dodge is a wonderful feat, I'll consider it, but in terms of "squeezing in feats", I'd like to include Epic Prowess as well. What if I swapped Great Dex 3 and 4 for Epic Prowess and Epic Dodge (swapping Blinding Speed for Defensive Roll)? It would come too late, at level 39, but at least it would be there, and at the cost of only 1 AC! The downside is that I would have to drop Power Attack for Dodge to qualify :/.
Quote: Personally, elf is a yucky choice here. It gets you very little, guarantees you an XP penalty (even if you swap out monk), and costs you CON, which hurts (hah). I'd go human, or halfling.
Why is concentration maxed? Facing a lot of taunts?
Discipline sans a decent str and/or an ESF is pretty useless. I'd either get the ESF or drop it altogether. Actually, I'd just drop it altogether. Even w/ the ESF you'll still be a bit shaky.
1- The elf is THE SINGLE BEST CHOICE (if not the only one) for this guy, because he has improved saves VS mind spells, and this guy's will save is pathetic (18 at level 40). The only way to counter that weakness is by going elf.
2- Concentration is maxed because Blade Thirst is a round/level duration spell and I don't have combat casting, and if my casting gets interrupted I'll be severely crippled. Plus it does help VS nasty taunters
3- I LOVE MAX discipline on all my characters. With crppling strike, if I reduce the enemy's strength some, I'll have a good chance of resisting their combat skills. I would take ESF if I could spare the feat, but alas I cannot. If only I could have the Human bonus feat and the Elf immunities!!
Dammit!! Aparently I didn't learn how to quote! Fixed
Edited By Kail Pendragon on 12/26/08 11:27
The +2 racial bonus vs mind spells isn't going to help very much. Besides, if you really want the +2, go human and take Iron Will with the bonus feat. Halflings get a +1 to all saves, so it would only be one less anyway. The fact that elf gives an experience penalty makes it the worst of the three options.
There are already several ranger/rogues posted. Your problem will be the same as theirs. It isn't possible to get both Bane of Enemies AND Epic Dodge until fairly late in the character's life. I suggest taking a look at those.
Click Here
You don't need dodge for epic dodge. It would be worth it to do whatever you have to do to fit it in, even though it may come late.
I love PA, don't get me wrong, but it's not like the bees knees or anything. You can't have everything. It's certainly one of the things I'd think about dropping. Yeah, most of your damage is in FEs or SAs, but that's pretty much just the way it goes.
Concerning race, dwarves get ST boni towards spells as well. As mentioned, you could also pick up Iron Will. Really though, your will save is gonna suck, and that's about all there is to it. I wouldn't say elf's the worst choice, as gnome or half-orc is probably worse, but it's definitely not the best. Almost never is.
Quote: Posted 12/26/08 02:20 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane 3- I LOVE MAX discipline on all my characters. With crppling strike, if I reduce the enemy's strength some, I'll have a good chance of resisting their combat skills.
So, once you have crippling strike, if you land a few sneaks, and if your enemy's not dead yet, and then if they attempt a KD, disarm, or called shot, then you have a chance to possibly resist. That costs you 43 skill points. See where I'm going? Your discipline aint gonna help you much at all. Maybe it's not absolutely totally useless, but it damned well aint worth the cost.
Concerning concentration, maxing a skill so you can cast one spell (maybe a few more), also seems nowhere near worth it. Just make sure you're not in range of an attack when you cast. Aint that hard, and won't happen that often.
Edited By onion eater on 12/26/08 04:25
Quote: Posted 12/26/08 03:04 (GMT) -- TheSupremeForce The fact that elf gives an experience penalty makes it the worst of the three options.
In all fairness, any race is going to have an XP penalty. Elves just have a particularly horrible penalty.
@ The Supreme Force
If I go Halfling, I'll get +1 AC, but avoid XP penalties if I push the monk level further back, but I'll lose the 2 STR, basically I'll swap it with Constitution. I don't much care for XP penalties. That will just mean that I'll need to make one more run through the game or cheat my way to level 40 after I finish HOTU. Plus, you said it yourselves. HOTU is extremely easy, so there's no point in worrying. If I manage to play The Aielund Saga, I'll test the damage that XP penalty can do to my performance and if it is too big, then I'll consider changing race.
I have seen several Ranger/Rogue/Monks, but none have as much Sneak Attack damage as mine. Grizzled Dwarflord made one with Self Concealment V that I thought was really cool.
@ onion eater
I don't think that there's any other skill worth dumping points into to get rid of my discipline. Heal would be nice, I guess, but I prefer Discipline. Plus you're not considering the type of items that I'll prioritize. I will certainly get STR enhancing items, if possible (in HOTU it is) I will cap it. And if I were to get rid of concentration, what could I get? Having heal 4 (which is what I get this way) with the take 20 rule will get me through the earlier levels until I have my panther, and after that I have spells/potions.
Now here's an extract from the HOTU manual on .pdf
"Epic Dodge
The caracter avoids all damage from the first attack each round.
Anyway, I will get Epic Dodge, even if I have to get rid of power attack, because I noticed now that I chose my favored enemies prioritizing those that are immune to critical hits and sneak attacks (constructs and undead).
Notice how this build required fewer tweaks than the last one? I'm getting good at this!
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/26/08 10:23
Quote: Posted 12/26/08 10:14 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane If I manage to play The Aielund Saga, I'll test the damage that XP penalty can do to my performance and if it is too big, then I'll consider changing race.
In a challenging environment w/ a fixed amount of XP available, penalties can be killers. Often a level or two is the difference between surviving, and having the floor mopped with your head.
Quote: I don't think that there's any other skill worth dumping points into to get rid of my discipline.
You have the whole rogue skill set to choose from! Search? Open Locks? Disable Traps? Maybe Persuade would be helpful? You could also half-class spellcraft. A +4 to saves vs. spells is still awfully handy.
Concerning the fact that you will be using STR gear (if that is the case (most environments I play in make it very, very difficult to cap multiple stats), that's, what, another 6 points towards your check? Still aint enough. If you can get significant discipline boosts off of items as well, then maybe, sure, but STR gear alone won't cut it. Of course, that's environmental, but I don't really see the point in assuming you'll only be facing easy opponents.
Quote: Is the manual wrong? Wouldn't be the first time
Yeah, manual's wrong. this is far more accurate, though not infallible.
Quote: Posted 12/26/08 10:14 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
@ The Supreme Force
I have seen several Ranger/Rogue/Monks, but none have as much Sneak Attack damage as mine. Grizzled Dwarflord made one with Self Concealment V that I thought was really cool.
It's a small point, but all six ranger/rogue/monks that come up in the build search engine have at least 13 levels of rogue. Admittedly, only two of them manage Bane of Enemies.
This one is the most like what you seem to be going for (while making better use of the monk levels). It has the exact same overall level split as your build.
Click Here
I am not assuming that, I just don't like disable traps, open locks and the rest of the rogue skills. It's easier to send the Animal Companion upfront to get hit by the traps while I follow him in stealth and then bash doors and chests. The spellcraft cross classing could be an option, I guess, but for the same reason that taking elf is a poor choice, so is that IMO. I'd rather resist taunts and be able to cast my spells in combat, although your suggestion could certainly be used. I guess it comes down to preferences in the end, and I prefer to max class skills as a general rule. Same as I prefer to suffer in the earlier levels for more level 40 power while you prefer playability all along. That's just a matter of personal preference. I will make the changes to the build and post it as follows. Thanks for the suggestion, Epic Dodge was a great addition and the cost was low enough, because I was able to squeeze in Eic Prowess as well.
Take it EZ!
The previous message was for onion eater, obviously, and this one goes to The Supreme Force. I tried to edit the post but I ran out of time
I had seen that one, but kamas are worse than Kukris oveall even with the monks extra attacks. Plus he has 10 STR, which is ridiculously low for an already low damage build. The greatest part of his damage comes from SA and FE. I will show you that my guy is a better choice mathematically
Kukri Damage: 1-4 +2 STR (+bonus damage vs FE), so base damage 3-6 and average damage 4.5. 30% chance of critical (6/20)
Kama damage: 1-6 +0 STR (+bonus VS FE), so base damage is 1-6 and average damage 3. 10% chance of critical (2/20)
While I get 100 attacks, the Kama guy will have 116.5 (it's actually 116.66666). I will hit 30 critical hits and he will hit 12 (rounding up).
So my guy will do 130 X his average damage (4.5) in the same number of rounds that the other guy will do 128.5 X his average damage (3). Basically, while he does 385.5 damage, my guy will do 585. I love math! .
Of course if you raised the other guy's strength to 14 (which would incur in a penalty to AB), his average damage would go up to 5.5 and he'd do 704 total damage in the same rounds, but he'd have less chances of landing a hit. However, if you notice the pattern, the more damage you include in the proportion (from buffs, items, etc), the 130X VS 128.5X average damage equivalence will favor my character, all else remaining constant
Take it EZ!
I'm sorry, but your math is wrong. In most situations the Kama will be better. Use the search. _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
i sense we have a CHEESER in the guild!! 2 builds, 2 monk builds!! LOL Points for the kuks!
Here's the thing i am tryin to wrap my head around: Elf, 3 base classes (no wiz) = 40% xp penalty (my math is prob wrong *faints* My question is, what does monk give that ranger AND rogue do not? I come up with nothing (since you dont like cleave, and you are using kuks). If it is skills, rog gets tumble, ranger gets dis.
i am wondering if ranger/rog isnt a better option? I cant even rp a reason for monk with this build! oh well.
With a dexer, not havin ED with rogue is not always the best idea, imo. I guess for the OC it wouldnt be too bad, cuz, like i said before, you can make the Crafting Machine do well in the OC!
btw, if Finn says the math is wrong, ITS WRONG. I consider his understanding of nwn second to none!
My calculations are right, I used 100 as a standard number of attacks. Since the progression of the attacks is 6 with the Kukris to 7 with the Kamas, dividing 100 by 6 you get the number of rounds (16.5 rounded down) that would take for my character to unleash 100 attacks. Since the Kamas get 1 extra attack every round, they'll get 16.5 extra attacks every 100 attacks.
I could be forgetting to consider other important variables that affect the result, but I'm sure I didn't miscalculate this. Could you at least explain why you say so, instead of just saying "use the search"? I'd appreciate it, thank you. Even more because to use the search you need to know what you're looking for.
@ avado
I never said I don't like cleave, I said I wouldn't waste a feat on it on an already feat-starving build. Free cleave is AWESOME. Plus this guy, with his high DEX isn't going to wear any armor, so MONK AC also rox! Plus plus the not-so useful but still nice to have Deflect Arrows! Skillwise, the Monk isn't required because rogue/ranger pretty much cover it, except for the spellcasting ones, which the monk doesn't help with either.
The updated version of this guy already has ED, and I'm considering a race switch to halfling. Human is out of the question, since I'd have to nerf other stats unnecessarily to achieve DEX 16 in exchange for one extra pre-epic feat that wouldn't do me much good. Maybe the extra skill point would allow me to go int 12 instead of 14, but in the end I prefer +1 to all saves and +1 AC IF I decide to switch races. I am considering and testing as I go. Epic Dodge really improved this guy, now I'll try the switch to Halfling to see how it goes.
If you think I'm a CHEESER, YOU GOT THAT!!!!! I'm working on another one already, and guess what? IT ALSO HAS CHEESE!! Viva la vida loca!!
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/26/08 18:57
Yeah, halfling would be the better choice.
Quote: Posted 12/26/08 18:53 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
@ Finneous JP
My calculations are right, I used 100 as a standard number of attacks. Since the progression of the attacks is 6 with the Kukris to 7 with the Kamas, dividing 100 by 6 you get the number of rounds (16.5 rounded down) that would take for my character to unleash 100 attacks. Since the Kamas get 1 extra attack every round, they'll get 16.5 extra attacks every 100 attacks.
I could be forgetting to consider other important variables that affect the result, but I'm sure I didn't miscalculate this. Could you at least explain why you say so, instead of just saying "use the search"? I'd appreciate it, thank you. Even more because to use the search you need to know what you're looking for.
Alright, let me rephrase: your basic premise is wrong. The math may be "right", but it's irrelevant. First, include AC in your calculations. Then, you need to acknowledge the kama gets more attacks at high AB than kukri (due to Flurry). This fact alone is enough to outdamage the kukri version. But all this has been discussed multiple times over. _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
@ Finneous JP
Well I tried to, as you said, include AC in the mixture, and here is how I think it'd work:
1- VS HIGH AC (OVER 80)*
In this case, where a 20 would be needed to even land a hit, such as a Druid in Dragon Form, the Kamas would do better. They will have one extra attack per round and therefore one extra chance to roll a 20. But I have chosen Power Attack for this kind of situation, so the difference between average damage isn't as big, although it still exists.
2- VS MEDIUM AC (60-80)
Considering an attack bonus of around 47 (41 AB + 3 from Blade Thirst +2 from Cat's Grace, +1 from aid, which the Kama guy would also have) I would need 13 or more to hit the lower one, and there I'd have the upper hand, while still needing a 20 to hit the higher ACs, then I'd turn Power attack on. I would say that in this area it begins to even out, with a slight advantage for my build simply for having Power Attack.
3- VS LOW AC (40-60)
In this case I would hit too often, and so would the other guy. My estimate would work in this case.
*It's worth to mention that I'm referring to AC achievable only by buffs, because if you add gear to the mixture, my guy will have the upper hand, since he practically can't buff himself, and is kind of a wimp without scrolls from UMD and general equipment.
On a side note, the main reason I'm not taking Kamas for this build isn't mathematical. When I had the idea for it, I was already working on a dual wielding Kama build for another character, so I didn't want to overdo it. I like cheese, but not that much!
Take it EZ!
Quote: by Maximilian Kane I have seen some similar builds, but nothing with this level distribution (which is kind of odd because IMO it's the best possible one)
Damn it, people never find my builds in the searcher: Silent Guardian of the Forest (Ranger 21 / Monk 2 / Rogue 17)
Well, not much else to say. Epic Dodge is one of the most powerful feats in the game, not taking whenever you can it is a huge mistake.
Now, the kama thing, there are a few things you could've missed:
Quote: by Maximilian Kane the Kamas would do better. They will have one extra attack per round and therefore one extra chance to roll a 20.
First of all, why did you say that kamas give you one more attack? they give you 3 more attacks!!!!! you have 20 BAB so that's only 4 APR main hand with a kukri, which becomes 6 with kama plus one more from Flurry of Blows giving 7 plus the two from the off-hand for 9 APR. Your calculations are so off already.
Now, kama not only gives more APR, but the AB difference per APR is reduced, the normal AB goes for example +40/+35/+30/+25 while a monk with a kama goes +40/+37/+34/+31/+28/+25, notice how it's a lot better.
As Finn said, this has been discussed before, your premise is wrong as he stated, you didn't know how kama affected your APR so the numbers are all off. _________________
Quote: Posted 12/19/06 19:54 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Thax the Shadow Dragon sez: MONKS USE KAMAS. Just ask him.
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/26/08 22:30
Quote: Posted 12/26/08 18:53 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
@ avado
I never said I don't like cleave, I said I wouldn't waste a feat on it on an already feat-starving build. Free cleave is AWESOME. Plus this guy, with his high DEX isn't going to wear any armor, so MONK AC also rox! Plus plus the not-so useful but still nice to have Deflect Arrows! Skillwise, the Monk isn't required because rogue/ranger pretty much cover it, except for the spellcasting ones, which the monk doesn't help with either.
It would be nice IF it were FREE as you suggest. Yes, you technically dont take a feat for it, but from what i have seen, it is NOT free. 20% xp penalty for one. [its not you, i just cant stand xp penalties. On most pw's, xp is HARD earned and to give up 20% or 40% in this case is unthinkable!].
So, if i understand it, you arent using Kama, which thax and finn cover. You arnt usin a shield or armor so you get +2 AC. And you want cleave. (doesnt deflect arrow need empty hand? LOL what do i remember about cheese). I dont consider ranger a "casting" class.. it would be an INSULT to actual casters so again, i am left wondering, why the xp penalty for so little (zero infact) pay out? Im guessing your the type of investor that advocates Bank account interest, or the risky GIC (guaratee income certs in canada) or money market mutual funds, dont you? LOL
I only ask because you seem gunho about this guild (which is good). You just have to start thinking about being "epic" in all aspects of your builds. Building for the OC is one thing (pre-school), but... I guess its like this: IF you were going to be a student ALL YOUR LIFE then it is ok to think only in terms of passing exams and studying for exams, BUT, we all know that when you get to the real world, all that we learned in school must be put aside in order to REALLY learn to live... i am pointing this out so you can GROW as a builder. Look through some of Cinn's, mithdrate;s or Griz's builds in the builder pages to see the differences between what you did and what they do (thax gave you a link, he's good aswell). its the NEXT step in your training young grasshopper.
if this makes no sense, i apologize, it's christmas (notice how i am also not being the typical avado! You cant have things both ways it seems)! _________________
I agree with avado, Storm of Vengeance rocks, it stuns great, it can deal heavy damage over time, and Evasion doesn't work against it, you should try it in your strategy as well, too bad it's conjura
Quote: by Maximilian Kane The elf is THE SINGLE BEST CHOICE (if not the only one) for this guy, because he has improved saves VS mind spells, and this guy's will save is pathetic (18 at level 40). The only way to counter that weakness is by going elf.
I took Human in my build with the same spread, I actually made a statement about why I didn't go elf, the biggest reason being xp penalty. There is no sustaining your argument that your build has to be elf, your so called improved saves vs mind spells (namely Hardiness vs. enchantments) is a mere +2 bonus, which means you're still toast against mind spells. 40% XP penalty is just horrible, and for more delight, whenever your Animal Companion is in stage, he will add you an aditional 20%, just as a side funny note. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Damn it, people never find my builds in the searcher: Silent Guardian of the Forest (Ranger 21 / Monk 2 / Rogue 17)
Really? It came up fine for me. I even linked to it in this thread.
I did see it Thax, and I liked it, but it's just that the kama dual-wield thing is everywhere. I saw your Mystic Master (Wiz 21, Monk 2, Clr 17), and guess what? DUAL KAMAS! Crispy Critter's Magic Master (or is it backwards?) DUAL KAMAS! I myself, as I told you in PM am building a version of it to play with. I will post something about it shortly on the suggestions topic. or below your own build seeing as it is a version of it with VERY SLIGHT CHANGES, since yours is already almost perfect IMO.
If Kamas give you 3 extra attacks, then I must bow to your arguments, they are indeed the best choice. Your build is, just like the Magic master, ALMOST perfect. The only 2 changes I would make would be to get 25 set traps early on, go halfling with 12 con and 13 str to get power attack instead of Blind Fight, seeing as you already have Ultravision and Invisibility Purge in your spellbook. You would have to get rid of toughness as well, but 1 more AB and AC is worth it.
@ avado
1- where did u get the idea that I don't look at the most experienced players builds? I've seen SEVERAL of Grizzled dwarflord's builds, like that AWESOME pale master one (I would try it if it weren't evil) or one similar to this one, but with SC V. I have seen a few of Thax's too, and Kail's Nature Wyrm, and LOTS of others. I have several stories created for several characters, and whenever I decide to try an idea for one of them, I look at the search engine first.
2- Where did you get the idea that I play HOTU and SOU 1230283091280974901283 times BY CHOICE instead of trying a different module? I was having problems opening up The Aielund Saga until TODAY. Now thanks to the great help from onion eater IT WORKED!! I've just started playing it with my "HOLY WEAPON MASTER WITH CHEESE", and so far, although I haven't really gone far, I must say it seems even easier than SOU. I'm hoping that will change soon.
Anyway. I would even suggest that you delete this topic then, and I'll post my improved version of this character under Thax's build, since it only has 2 changes. That's why I BANNED monk when I was a DM, it's too IMBA!
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/27/08 01:28
Quote: Posted 12/27/08 01:15 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
1- where did u get the idea that I don't look at the most experienced players builds? I've seen SEVERAL of Grizzled dwarflord's builds, like that AWESOME pale master one (I would try it if it weren't evil) or one similar to this one, but with SC V. I have seen a few of Thax's too, and Kail's Nature Wyrm, and LOTS of others. I have several stories created for several characters, and whenever I decide to try an idea for one of them, I look at the search engine first.
where did i get the idea? i made a suggestion cuz it seems that the way you build, then defend the way you build it, is, well, like a rookie, which you are. My suggestion is to HELP you grow. Like i said, ranger/monk/rog WITHOUT kama is a really weird combo with an elf... but that is my opinon.
Quote: 2- Where did you get the idea that I play HOTU and SOU 1230283091280974901283 times BY CHOICE instead of trying a different module? I was having problems opening up The Aielund Saga until TODAY. Now thanks to the great help from onion eater IT WORKED!! I've just started playing it with my "HOLY WEAPON MASTER WITH CHEESE", and so far, although I haven't really gone far, I must say it seems even easier than SOU. I'm hoping that will change soon.
Any mod is designed for the lowest common denominator. THey have to be cuz there ARE people who build with the RECOMMEND button (none here, just saying). So the mods are a cake walk, always. PW's on the other hand are different. PW's you can have areas where 8-10 players are together in a party (done it) so how can you make it easy? That same area, with a single char? NOW that is an epic build! I never got the idea you play the OC over and over, its just what you said in your posts about how you design. In order to understand, maybe you should go to WoG and ask Onion to walk you around abit. All of a sudden, your uber OC builds (oc refering to ANY single mod) isnt so... now i am sure there are a few HARD mods for single.. i stoped them ALONG time ago so dont flame me with garbage.
Quote: Anyway. I would even suggest that you delete this topic then, and I'll post my improved version of this character under Thax's build, since it only has 2 changes. That's why I BANNED monk when I was a DM, it's too IMBA!
nah, dont delete this post. I was pretty tame on this one and i need it as proof that im not a total ***... well DONT post it under Thax's build, as that is post highjacking! Thax's build is thax's and it is older, so make a new post with links to his and this for "inspirational" posts. _________________
This post is for general information purposes only, and does not constitute a legal opinion or render any legal advice. It may not be relied on for any purpose, and gives rise to
Yeah, don't post it under mine. You said on another topic that you've seen how revised versions of a build are posted as replies, but that usually is done by the original poster. It's rude to post your build on someone else's.
Quote: by Maximilian Kane I've seen SEVERAL of Grizzled dwarflord's builds, like that AWESOME pale master one (I would try it if it weren't evil) or one similar to this one, but with SC V. I have seen a few of Thax's too, and Kail's Nature Wyrm, and LOTS of others.
Kail's big power-monster build is called the Order of Jormundgandr, you should check that one out, it's one of my all time favorites (although I recall it's illegal in the newest version, the minimum amount of Druid levels for Dragon Shape were altered if I'm correct).
Quote: by avado I was pretty tame on this one and i need it as proof that im not a total ***
We all know exactly how much of a *** you can be. There's no use hiding it, you're done for already... just kidding, you know you're cool with me. _________________
Quote: Posted 05/09/08 07:26 (GMT) -- avado
THax, you know i love and respect you, right?
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/27/08 06:38
Quote: Posted 12/27/08 01:15 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
I did see it Thax, and I liked it, but it's just that the kama dual-wield thing is everywhere. I saw your Mystic Master (Wiz 21, Monk 2, Clr 17), and guess what? DUAL KAMAS! Crispy Critter's Magic Master (or is it backwards?) DUAL KAMAS!
... and what conclusion did you draw? Methinks there may be a reason for the dual kama / monk thing...
Anyways, one can play all sorts of builds. The main thing that needs be communicated here is that the concept here is fundamentally flawed. The race / class combo is waaay off. As I stated, I'm not totally against XP penalties, but a 40%? That's gettin' pretty wack. To not even get a whole lot out of that is just plain nutty. To pass up BF for PA (you have enough invis purge for every situation?), w/ a mediocre AB no less, is a misallocation of resources. To pass up ED! I'm getting lightheaded just thinking about it. Ask yourself this: what does this guy do better than another build could do? If you can't really answer that, it's probably not a very good build.
Oh, and don't worry. Aielund gets challenging. Well, I never made it that far, but I have it on good authority that it will whip you all about, and sideways. WoG may be a whole different ballpark, but there are plenty of challenging SP mods as well.
@ onion eater
This guy has very good combos. MASSIVE sneak attack damage from him and his animal companion. I thought he had the most sneak attack damage, but that's because I didn't know how Kama attacks worked. It seems this build is second only to Thax's in that regard.
I had never before built a rogue, and if you read the previous posts you'll notice that I had the Neverwinter manual as a general guide, so I thought Dodge was required for Epic Dodge. Now I already have NWNWiki added to my favorite home pages. I have already said I will get rid of blinding speed and get Defensive Roll instead, while also dropping two great dexterities to add Epic Prowess and Epic Dodge.
His AB is only low because Ranger spells are pityful, but if you consider the possibilities that UMD brings, with scrolls of Battletide, Prayer, Bless, plus regular magic items, he will improve like no other. A Wizard can achieve 40 AC easily with spells (+5 from Shadow shield, +20 EMA, +1 MA, +2 double Prot VS alignments, and so on). So gear to a wizard is almost irrelevant in terms of AC, athough it does free up extra spell slots. For this guy, every magical item he acquires will give him a boost, even magical weapons, because blade thirst has a pathetic duration.
The only reason I haven't posted an updated version of this build is because I'm considering a few changes still. I will ABSOLUTELY go Halfling, but the low saving throws are what's really bothering me. There's no point in making a HUGE DAMAGE DEALER if he'll get killed at first sight of ANY caster. Not just the high-level ones, but ANY caster with 9th level spells or even 7th. I was thinking of dropping monk and going bard (2)instead to max spellcraft. I'd dual-wield Handaxes, and drop weapon proficiency exotic for cleave (yes I would, avado ), and move power attack to the early levels, while pushing back Weapon Focus Handaxe.
I have searched for a build of this kind using the search engine and came up with only 2 different ones, but both focused mainly on the Bard part. I would get +1 AB and damage from my Bard song, while countering the main weakness of this build with MAX spellcraft. What do you think of that idea guys?
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/27/08 16:26
You don't want to dual-wield handaxes with a halfling. Due to their small size, halflings can only use tiny weapons dagger/kukri) in their off-hand without receiving the hefty penalty to AB.
Also, if your concern was saving throws, ranger/rogue really wasn't the way to go in the first place. Just accept that your Will save is going to be pathetic and live with it. Hope that you can find potions to help against mind spells, or that there are plenty of useful scrolls for you to use.
Ok, noted, no handaxes then.
But I could swap monk for bard, lose cleave, get +8 saves due to spellcraft and + AB, damage and will saving throws from the bard song. The flurry isn't being used because of the Kukris, and If I were to go with the Kamas, my build would just be too similar to Thax's (not that it's a bad thing by any means) but really I'd like to try something different than the cheese, maybe some ham?
I will lose some melee power from not choosing the Kamas/monk cheese build, but at the same time solving one of the main weaknesses of the ranger/rogue combination. Altogether it's not that bad IMO. Saying as onion eater put it. What would your build do that others don't? It'd be a ranger / rogue combination with decent saving throws. I can't go daggers because they're not slashing, so Blade Thirst would be useless. My choices are to either go human and have mediocre starting stats to achieve 16 DEX or take exotic weapons for the kukri halfling. I'll revise the feats to see where I could squeeze in cleave.
Take it EZ!
* Actually, cleave might not be a good idea, with such a low damage output. What do you think?
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/27/08 17:29
In my opinion, you're just thinking your stats are cool and mighty just because you made the build. There's no big deal, I do that all the time, but truth be told, when I played my build I actually had a pretty rough time. Early on your damage sucks since you don't get sneaks or BoE or even the cheese until epics for the sake of BAB so after testing it's really meant to start at about level 30, that's why I posted it as a level 40 build. Playing this kind of build requires more Rogue-style skill than what I'm capable of (I'm a melee-buffer or caster type of player, I've never been really good with the hiding stuff), so it's one of the hardest builds I've played (considering I don't play with crappy builds), at least it's a lot weaker than my usual playthrough builds. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/27/08 20:02
So Thax, basically, this build type does not suit your playing style, which is ok. You and I have somewhat similar tastes, but still a little different. I had already seen your kama build and liked it before I made mine, but I really forgot about it somehow (probably because I was actually working on something else when this idea hit me) when I decided to post it (plus, once I was reminded of your build, I thought I was improving it because I didn't know how Kamas worked). Still there was always something bothering me about the low saves.
I began considering the idea of a change when one of you guys (I think it was avado) said I had absolutely no reason to go monk, since I wasn't using most of his cheese anyway. That's when I had the idea of adding bard to the mixture, instead of monk, but my main issue is that I have NEVER played with a bard before, so I don't know it's intricacies, that's why I asked you guys to give me your opinions. I'm not going to make a better build than the Kama one, that is more than certain, but a more well-rounded one, or at least that's what I'm aiming for now.
Tell me, if I maintain the Kukris, do you think Bard would be a good choice for a third class? If not, please tell me why. What are my other options?
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 12/27/08 22:20
Bard is usually taken for skilldumps, which becomes useless as Rogue already has a very good skillset.
What you want is a class that needs only a few levels to make itself useful (because Bane of Enemies and Sneak Attack suck all your levels already). So, not much in there to pick, 4 Fighter levels would be my choice, but 1 Shadowdancer might be the best. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Fighter doesn't have spellcraft, so it wouldn't do the trick, and I believe shadowdancer doesn't either. Druid, wizard, Sorc, Cleric are classes that don't matter much in low levels. Bard was pretty much the only class that could fit in the mixture with more effectiveness. Bardic Lore will be useless, since it's only 2 levels, but he'd have spellcraft as a class skill and his song to improve my guy's attack. I wouldn't be able to use the spells, however, as my charisma is too low already.
I will test adding bard and see how it goes. Geez, I really gotta start making some decisions!! If it doesn't work out then I'll just give up and go monk with dual kamas, making the very few adjustments to thax's build to fit it to my preferences.
Take it EZ!
let me put it another way: Why do you need a 3rd class?
you seem to want to add a class for no other reason than you can! I love what Keith Richards once said, somethin about music being in the spaces between the notes... It seems like you are tryin to build something spectacular when there is nothing really spectacular about the combo.
Thax said Bard is used for skill dumps. Rog is ALSO used for skill dumps, so why would you suffer an xp penalty for spellcraft? you arent a caster, so why try to be?
HIPS is really the ONLY thing that would make your build better. Why? You are a dexer relying on sneaks. The 3rd class is a no brainer.
You have this obsession with saves. Why? Please understand, no single build will nor CAN have everything. it isnt possible in 40 lvls. If you want saves, go monk to 40! Otherwise, realize that something has to suffer. If you are concerned with saves (which i dont think you truly are) you would use FEATS to make up for the lack. I think you are hiding behind the saves to delay the inevitable... you have a build! lol i know its crazy but you do! Accept it. it is what it is. You can fuss it all you want, it will be a rogu/ranger build in the end.
it is time to ask yourself the HARD question: WHat do i want from THIS build? Repeat after me OUT LOUD: What do I [touch your chest] want from THIS [point at screen] build? What am I[touch chest] willing to live with in this build? what am I[touch chest] willing to not have in this build REALIZING I CANNOT HAVE EVERYTHING? [pick up frying pan next to PC and bang it over your head... jk ]
What you came up with was fine! I have NEVER seen a person go on for 3 pages with a build that was fine to start with! *we have never had a Hazing in our guild, it looks like we had our first one* jk _________________
I think avado answered your question like no other could...
@ avado
You are truly a character. Although my english is great (and I'm a modest human being ), it is not my first language. It's actually my third language fighting for a second place. So 2 questions: What does HIPS mean? and Hazing?
I will answer your post when I know what you're saying
Take it EZ!
HIPS stands for Hide in Plain Sight, it's an ability gained with 1 Shadowdancer level and it's self-explanatory so you can guess it's very powerful. Basically any build that relies on sneaks (or just has them) becomes stronger with 1 Shadowdancer level.
Don't feel bad when you can't understand abreviations because English ins't your first language, that happens al lot at first. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 12/28/08 17:44
Relax, I don't feel bad, especially when it's game-related. I had absolutely no way of knowing it. You should've seen me trying to "decipher script" the first builds I looked at over here. You should get DS, cast TS, IGMS, take IPA for IE, etc...
It almost drove me crazy!
Take it EZ!
Hello guys,
After a while of playing with another build, I resumed my work on this one, and I think I was able to improve it quite a bit. It didn't lose much, gained 4 AC, lost 1 AB, but gained a temporary buff that restores it and adds 1 to damage as well. Yes avado, it is still a 3 base class build .
Here's the result:
THE SILENT DEATH DEALER
Ranger (21) / Bard (2) / Rogue (17)
RACE: Human
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Neutral (Any nonlawful)
STARTING STATS:
STR - 14 (+2) DEX - 14 (+2) CON - 10 (0) WIS - 14 (+2) INT - 14 (+2) CHA - 12 (+1)
ENDING STATS:
STR - 14 (+2) DEX - 26 (+8) CON - 10 (0) WIS - 14 (+2) INT - 14 (+2) CHA - 12 (+1)
BASIC STATS:
Hit Points: 324
Skill Points: 369
Saving Throws (Fort/Ref/Will): 22/24/18 (+8 VS Spells, Improved Evasion)
SPECIAL NOTES: If you want a PVP version of this character, swap the Favored Enemies I picked for the core D&D PC races. You could also swap Armor Skin for Epic Prowess, I you feel you need more AC.
Buffed AC with no gear: 33/34 (38/39 with Expertise)
STRENGTHS
Great stealth modifiers Great Sneak Attack damage (9d6 +10d6 from the Panther) Epic Dodge Good saves for a Ranger / Rogue build (Max Spellcraft) Max UMD Rarely misses on a Knockdown coming from stealth
WEAKNESSES
Lowish AC without magic items Pityful buffs Still needs help from items with saves (but at least you won't have to hope for immunities) Weak until mid-epics Relies on Magic items a lot (but at the same time takes THE MOST advantage of them )
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 01/08/09 19:32
Under Weaknesses I would most certainly list an XP penalty from level 21 on, and a wicked bad penalty from 37 on.
I also don't get why you left BoE until 39th. You come out of the gate screaming ranger, and right when you get to the ranger's end all and be all feat, you swap classes.
I would totally drop CHA for CON. Why do you need a 12 CHA? Don't tell me it's for the bard spells...
Quote: Posted 01/08/09 20:43 (GMT) -- onion eater
Under Weaknesses I would most certainly list an XP penalty from level 21 on, and a wicked bad penalty from 37 on.
I also don't get why you left BoE until 39th. You come out of the gate screaming ranger, and right when you get to the ranger's end all and be all feat, you swap classes.
I would totally drop CHA for CON. Why do you need a 12 CHA? Don't tell me it's for the bard spells...
Man you've been eating too many onions!!! No XP penalty until level 37 (DUH!), since he's Human (highest class doesn't count for XP penalty) and a mild one from 37 to 40, which is acceptable.
Yes, 12 CHA is for the bard spells. If you really don't like it, swap Expertise for Toughness and get the damnable 40 HP, or forget about Mage Armor and get + 40 HP, since it is a luxury anyway . I left BoE all that far away to get Epic Dodge at level 36. You can do it either way, going Ranger 21 and getting ED at level 39.
Take it EZ!
You went 12 Charisma in order to eventually be able to cast a cantrip? I don't believe that a 12 is going to give you an actual casting of a level one spell.
Why didn't you just take the 21st Ranger level at level 21?
You went 12 Charisma in order to eventually be able to cast a cantrip? I don't believe that a 12 is going to give you an actual casting of a level one spell.
Why didn't you just take the 21st Ranger level at level 21?
I too think the CHA is quite worthless. And delaying BoE for (almost) 20 levels _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
Edited By FinneousPJ on 01/09/09 03:01
I still don't see the point of a third class here unless it's a prestige. Assassin gets spellcraft at no XP penalty and also gets you death attack (instant win if your opponent rolls a 1). Shadowdancer gives you HiPS.
Also, you pretty much never need UMD more than around 30 or so. Not even to use a race-restricted suit of armor +10 with 4 or 5 different bonuses. If you do need more, chances are your environment is so high-magic it puts local vault uberl337 h4xors to shame. You also don't need any concentration at all, there's pretty much nothing you need to cast in combat and taunt can be avoided by running from combat when they use it on you. Maxing out Set Trap (to get higher DC) or taking Listen is a better investment.
How I would change the build (keeping the basic premise intact):
Go human or dwarf Do stats something like this:
STR 14 DEX 16 (everything into DEX) CON 14 (16 if dwarf) INT 10 WIS 14 CHA 8 (6 if dwarf)
Power attack and cleave are a waste of feats for you. If you're up against a PM, you're not going to hit him, period. And even if you do, once in a blue moon, 5 damage isn't going to make a difference. Cleave simply doesn't get you much return (I've had this argument before with almost everyone here, and I still stand by my statement that if you get to use Cleave on a regular basis, the enemies are too weak to pose you a threat anyway).
Now, dodge and mobility on the other hand Take them at 15 and 18 so you can get SD at level 22-ish. This also frees you up another level of ranger so you can get Bane of Enemies as soon as you hit epics and still get a discipline skill dump (I'd still keep discipline, if only "just in case" if you get caught flat-footed or somesuch).
Expertise... Since you now have HiPS, you don't need it - if you ever need a situation where the enemy can't hit you, just hide. Take a saving-throw boosting feat instead.
Conclusion: - You gain HiPS (yay!) - You get Bane of Enemies much earlier (level 21 vs. 39) - You can attack someone from stealth, not only getting a lot of sneak attack but also get a better chance to KD them since they're going to be flat-footed - You only get +4 saves vs. spells from spellcraft, but you can take a feat pre-epic to cancel out some of that
PS: since your DEX is now 2 points higher, consider swapping out two Greater Dexterity feats for ESF: Discipline and Epic Fortitude or Epic Will (imo Will is more useful, characters with devcrit pose you less of a threat since you have both HiPS and Epic Dodge).
Edited By Bertuzzi on 01/09/09 03:36
Quote: Posted 01/09/09 03:26 (GMT) -- Bertuzzi
Assassin gets spellcraft
Huh? Is this a typo?
Quote: Posted 01/09/09 04:20 (GMT) -- galelabriel
Quote: Posted 01/09/09 03:26 (GMT) -- Bertuzzi
Assassin gets spellcraft
Huh? Is this a typo?
Lol I'm an idiot. I was apparently looking at Spot and Set Trap both of which start with S and surround Spellcraft while screwing around with this build in a test module.
I should really play classes I don't like more.
Yeah, then don't take assassin, there's no point.
PS: to add to what I said in my previous post, also throw out IKD (you can live with regular KD just fine) and take Blindfight, which is infinitely more useful.
*scratches head*
WHAT!!!!! (no question, just despiration). K, you were part of Dark's build "rip" where takin rdd10 at lv 39 was a sin, yet, YET!, in this build, BoE is done in the EXACT same way!! *faints*
For the record, if anyone ever wants to see a lv 40 build, this is it! Absolutely NO creativity, just straight ranger, straight rogue, with 2 ridiculous bard levels at the end for nothing more than an XP penalty (i am sure you can find a prc that has spellcraft.. and WHY would you want SC when you are essentially a meleer? The downside is too much to consider).
I was trying to turn to the light, but alas... there is something about builds like this that get my blood boiling. When i say that a monkey can do a lv 40 build, i mean it. It is a shame Max, cuz i was startin to like you! LOL jk. I do like you, you have gumption (you stand up for yourself), though, with this idea you took a bad idea and tried to make it better, but you missed.
DROP the 3rd class or go PRC. Otherwise this is simply a amateurish attempt to gain our respect. Sorry, i call a spade a spade.
*for the record, when i see a build that can be summed by ranger 1-20 rog 21-27 bard rog ranger bard, i tune out. It isnt a "good" build, regardless. Look at dark''s again. You can see that he WAS thinkin!, not sure about what! but he was thinkin!.. jk Dark _________________
Quote: -- Posted by Kail Pendragon
Being hyperbolic is an integral part of Avado's being
Quote: Posted 01/09/09 04:38 (GMT) -- avado
*scratches head*
WHAT!!!!! (no question, just despiration). K, you were part of Dark's build "rip" where takin rdd10 at lv 39 was a sin, yet, YET!, in this build, BoE is done in the EXACT same way!! *faints*
For the record, if anyone ever wants to see a lv 40 build, this is it! Absolutely NO creativity, just straight ranger, straight rogue, with 2 ridiculous bard levels at the end for nothing more than an XP penalty (i am sure you can find a prc that has spellcraft.. and WHY would you want SC when you are essentially a meleer? The downside is too much to consider).
I was trying to turn to the light, but alas... there is something about builds like this that get my blood boiling. When i say that a monkey can do a lv 40 build, i mean it. It is a shame Max, cuz i was startin to like you! LOL jk. I do like you, you have gumption (you stand up for yourself), though, with this idea you took a bad idea and tried to make it better, but you missed.
DROP the 3rd class or go PRC. Otherwise this is simply a amateurish attempt to gain our respect. Sorry, i call a spade a spade.
*for the record, when i see a build that can be summed by ranger 1-20 rog 21-27 bard rog ranger bard, i tune out. It isnt a "good" build, regardless. Look at dark''s again. You can see that he WAS thinkin!, not sure about what! but he was thinkin!.. jk Dark
1- I wasn't in the discussion of Dark Infernoo's build, although I was following it. Go see for yourself. I was in the Sneaky Dragon discussion arguing that he should get SD 5, maybe you confused it. OH! And please don't murder the english language, it's desperation, not despiration
2- Tell me, please, ONE prestige class that has Spellcraft as a class skill and is accessible in this build. It also needs to be one that I can take only 2 levels in and benefit from it as much as I do from the Bard, regardless of XP penalty. If you took BoE at level 21, which I haven't at all discarded, you could delay the XP penalty to level 39 by saving up Epic Prowess or Armor Skin to be taken that late. The ONLY reason I took that last level of Ranger so late was actually a mistake of mine: I thought that Bards didn't get Discipline as a class skill. Since this was previously a Monk build, I thought I now needed to delay Ranger to get Max discipline. My mistake, I will correct it shortly.
BTW, there is no Downside to bard. 20% XP penalty for (if reduced) 1 or 2 levels isn't really something to be worried about. Plus, Bard gets Discipline (I know now) and Concentration as class skills, so you can Max them out. I want Spellcraft because this guy's will save is PATHETIC (18). At least with Spellcraft he doesn't have to HOPE FOR IMMUNITIES. I do realize that a pure caster's DC would still be hard to resist (even counting items, like a Protection from Spells scroll), but the odds go up a lot this way. I found a way to diminish one of this character's main weaknesses at the cost of 20% XP in two levels. To me that's not bad at all. If there indeed is a PrC that can get spellcraft and improve this character, I'm not completely against the change, but from what I could see, there wasn't.
3- Dude, do you really think I do this to try to get your respect? In fact it's the exact opposite. I am a very intelligent guy. Intelligent enough to realize that you guys know a lot more about this game and it's strategies than I do. By posting builds or ideas and discussing them with you guys, the builds get better and I grow as a builder. I have improved A LOT since I started doing this and hope to continue doing so. I am not arrogant enough to think that in a month I've been doing this I could even begin to make up for the 5 or 6 years that some of you guys have had of experience. That does not mean that I will accept everyone's claims and disregard my own ideas without a proper reason. Even among you people there isn't a unanimous build. Some people like some, others don't. That's just the way it is. I have noticed you're a little bit of a PrC (and Cleric) freak . If you think that the only way to achieve a creative build is by going Blackguard / Shadowdancer / Red Dragon Disciple, that's fine. I beg to differ.
Just a few more things that I'd like you to know:
- This was my FIRST Rogue and Bard build EVER (not together, I mean separately I had never used either class in any of my builds before)
- There was a long time lapse in which I didn't play this game because of the glitches (alas I didn't know about Tony K's AI, CEP, EMS or even downloadable modules) This is sort of a "rebirth" for me at this game.
- I am going to try to play this guy through the Aielund Saga, and see what tweaks are needed, and then post a final version (with BoE at 21st level) as soon as I'm done.
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 01/09/09 11:15
*peers closely* Well, lookit that, he is a human...
For what it's worth, I have no problem w/ the bard levels late in the build. Yes, three base classes is somewhat inelegant, and IMO, a skill dump at the end of the build is a waste, but if you're going for level 40 play, even if you have to work your way up, the bard levels at least get the job done. Like I say, rather inelegant (and, yes, elegance is something I look for in a build), and it wouldn't work for me, within the parameters, it's fine.
That said, I do agree that SD would be a more worthwhile investment. You could easily get BoE early, a ranger dump later, two rogue bonus feats, and SD. You'd lose spellcraft.
And, seriously? You're putting four points into CHA for... one potential first level spell casting... woah. No. Really, really no. Mindboggling bad idea.
Quote: Posted 01/09/09 11:08 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
2- Tell me, please, ONE prestige class that has Spellcraft as a class skill and is accessible in this build. It also needs to be one that I can take only 2 levels in and benefit from it as much as I do from the Bard, regardless of XP penalty.
Why does a NON CASTER need spellcraft? Oh the + to saves.. WHen you decide to 3rd class this guy, you actually weaken it. an xp penalty IS NOT EPIC, in my opinion. I have just spent some time working on an idea (i was the sounding board) for a build that takes 2 base classes (non-human) with NO xp penalty, and TONS of more options in store than BoE and spellcraft 40! (by taking Bard, that is what you are saying IS important to you).
Honestly, this is an old game and an old guild. You really need to DESIGN a build to get some interest. THe scary thing is that you REDID the build and STILL made mistakes.. I am not one for perfection, as i have never left a build without alterations on the fly, but man...
at the end of the day, we have gone on for 4 pages on a build that isnt that inspired, and never was, yet the designer has tried to defend it all the way through and made a worse build in the end than what he started with.. hmm EPIC builder?
Here's the deal: Shadowdancer with 20 cross-classed Spellcraft is better than Bard here. The +4 you get vs. spells isn't gonna make a difference. I'll be frank: the spellcraft bonus isn't going to save you vs. Will saves, not cross-classed. not as a class skill. Not spells, and esp. not effects (Fear auras come to mind...)
A simple example, Prismatic Dragon CR 30-something - less than 40 anyway - casts prismatic spray with 40 DC for confuse. And you'll be encountering even tougher enemies at lvl 40-ish. _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
@ Finn (It's about time I start shortening your name)
Thanks for the feedback, but there is a problem. I kind of agree that SD would be a VERY good choice, however I would need to drop 2 feats to get it (Dodge and Mobility pre-requisites). I could drop Expertise, although I think it's a bad idea, I love Epertise. So to get SD for HiPS I would need to give up on 2 of the feats + Max Spellcraft + delay BoE to the 39th level (again*) to be able to MAX Discipline, because it's not a SD class skill.
*Please remember that it was a mistake that made me delay taking BoE in this second version, so naturally, now that I know Discipline is a Bard class skill, I will without a doubt get BoE at level 21, delaying either Armor Skin or Epic Prowess. Therefore, the corrected split would be:
Ranger - 21, Rogue - 17, Bard - 2 (at 39 and 40 only would I have XP penalties in this new split). Power attack, Cleave, WF, IC, KD and IKD are extremely important for this build IMO, so Expertise would be the only one on the "nice to have list".
Using your same example. My base Save VS the Prismatic Dragon's Confuse would be 26 (as opposed to 22 in the SD alternative). With a Protection From Spells Scroll (a MUST in this build) it'd go up to 34. Either a Scarab of Protection +5 or a Cloak of Fortification +5 would be enough for me to fail only on a natural 1, while the other build would need both (still pretty reasonable to assume that you can get both these items in a level 40 build), but I would have a clear item slot for say... An amulet of Natural Armor +5.
Don't think I don't understand what you guys are saying (especially you avado), it's just a personal thing: I play only Single Player mods, and therefore I am THE MAIN HERO AND SAVIOR OF ALL. I hate the fact that whenever a creature with Fear Aura appears, my guy has to hope for immunities or run like there's no tomorrow while his henchmen do the fighting for him.
I do realize it's unquestionable that he becomes MUCH BETTER at what he does by going Shadowdancer as a third class, but for once I'd like to be able to face a Dragon without running off in fear or hoping for a Cowl of Warding. To me it's like saying: this guy is only playable in environments with immunities. Maybe for PWs that works fine if you're in a party you just let everyone else do the fighting for you, but in Single Player mods where you are the center of the whole thing, to me it's pointless to simply accept that he's just vulnerable to mind spells and that's it. If there is a build I ever regret spending my time on it's this one, but alas I already started it and I always finish what I start. I will post the corrected vrsion of it shortly, but for now I'm still considering dropping Charisma to 8 and going Constitution 14 as onion eater suggested. Or even rearranging some of my stats (getting STR 13 and INT 13 to qualify for Power Attack and Expertise, going CON 12, CHA 8 and starting with 16 DEX)
Take it EZ!
Quote: Posted 01/10/09 21:58 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
I do realize it's unquestionable that he becomes MUCH BETTER at what he does by going Shadowdancer as a third class, but for once I'd like to be able to face a Dragon without running off in fear or hoping for a Cowl of Warding. To me it's like saying: this guy is only playable in environments with immunities. Maybe for PWs that works fine if you're in a party you just let everyone else do the fighting for you, but in Single Player mods where you are the center of the whole thing, to me it's pointless to simply accept that he's just vulnerable to mind spells and that's it.
This sounds backwards to me from the experiences I have had playing single player and multi-player. I have found that it is usually easier to obtain immunity items in single player campaigns compared to playing on PW's. I guess it would depend on the level of magic of the PW. I tend to play on lower magic worlds.
Here's a flaw with that reasoning: you only gain that +8 bonus to spellcraft (and the resulting +4 advantage) at level 39 and 40 when you take your bard levels, right? That's potentially 38 levels of will save sucking with no spellcraft bonus at all.
Frankly, I'd suggest getting Protection from Alignment, Lesser Mind Blank, or Mind Blank and just be flat out immune to mind spells (though only evil or good with PfA).
In brief:
Sure, spellcraft is great, but you will still need to be finding yourself fear immunity, and whatnot. What if that fear aura isn't the result of a spell? Your will save sucks, and you better find a way to cover for that, and that way aint spellcraft.
I don't see why PA and cleave are integral to the build. I can barely accept imp crit, though I suppose it's more than worthwhile.
You could easily swap bard for SD, and still get BoE at 21st, and take another ranger for a discipline dump. That's a stronger build. Don't get me wrong, I love bards, and I think that bard in this build isn't an entirely awful idea (though IMO your first skill dump at 37 is all but useless)*, just, well, HiPS vs. spellcraft... oh, ok, and having to take dodge and mobility. Still, no contest. HiPS wins, by a cool bit.
*and this is what I don't understand. You say you play only single player mods. Surely you don't walk around at level 40 the vast majority of the time? How many mods even take you to 40? Why build for 40 when you're never going to reach that point? I don't understand it at all, and when I see level 40 builds, honestly I immediate discount them. It is, IMO, of course, a silly thing to do. Fun, perhaps, as amusement, but totally lacking in practicality.
Quote: Posted 01/11/09 08:17 (GMT) -- onion eater
Sure, spellcraft is great, but you will still need to be finding yourself fear immunity, and whatnot. What if that fear aura isn't the result of a spell? Your will save sucks, and you better find a way to cover for that, and that way aint spellcraft.
lmao! k onion, you are going to give maxy a new idea now! Instead of 2 bard lvls, he will rework it to get 2 PALADING lvls! That way you get dis dump AND charisma boost to saves... imm to fear.. oohh i think me likes it! ranger/paladin/rog! nice. i think it would be dam near IMPOSSIBLE to rp though. Imagine a dude used to nature and stealing all of a sudden, at the end of his days, take an OATH of goodness, only to NOT be a paladin then to be again! yeah, kinda far fetched me thinks... It would be a straight power-gaming build for sure, though we'd have to give avado credit for it.. nevermind. i think we should really get off this build. its been almost 5 pages now of ramblings from ALL of us (but mostly me!) _________________
Quote: -- Posted by Kail Pendragon
Being hyperbolic is an integral part of Avado's being
Okay, Max, you're a DEX ranger. You're also not a pally/BG/CHA cleric. Yet you took Power Attack and Cleave. That's your shadowdancer right there.
I'll sum it up.
21 straight Ranger levels, and BoE.
Dump PA + Cleave for Dodge + Mobility
SD1 at lvl 22.
13 Rogue straight to qualify for Epic Dodge ASAP after that. Now we're already late career, and it's been a far stretch now without Discipline dumps. And you're at lvl 35, ready to get ED with the next feat. So, take Rogue 13 at lvl36 for Epic dodge, then you have a place to get a ranger level in for skilldump on the way. Your build will now look like this at lvl 36: Ranger22/SD1/Rogue13 WITH BoE, HiPS and ED!!! Very nice I think. 4 levels left to play with. 3 rogue for 1 feat (Crippling strike?) and 1 ranger level for a final discipline dump and BEHOLD: another feat. For a last FE perhaps.
Ranger23/SD1/Rogue16. Seem quite optimized to me.
About the bard. Taking it for extra SC saves in PvM won't really help you at lvl 37, as mentioned. You also talk a lot about giving yourself a chance in Fear auras. To my knowledge, spellcraft doesn't even help you vs Fear auras.....
If you still intend on getting that spellcraft, then I would take the bard level at 22, after BoE, it doubles as a Tumble dump and +5 AC. Then I would take Asn levels instead of rogue from there. The downside is that it will cost you dearly, very dearly, compared to not getting SC. It will cost you Epic Dodge(!!!) AND HiPS.
Either that, or eat the 20% XP-penalty from lvl 25 and onwards. I wouldn't do that either, I think. Taking Bard at lvl 37 doesn't really hurt the build per se, who cares about 20% xp-penalty for the last few levels? But it won't really help much either IMO, it's way too late into the build.
Hope my rants help a little.
Grim out. And be nice folks.
*EDIT* I see you has CHA 12. I'd set it too 8 and increase DEX to 15, CON to 12. Then Take Epic Prowess as the Ranger Bonus feat, making room for another great Dex through levelling. Ending DEX is now 28 compared too 26.
Alternative 2 is to start with DEX 16 and CON 10, use your feats as it is, and use the last Ranger feat for another FE. Ending DEX will even now be 28, so in reality you have exchanged +1 Fort and 40hp for another FE. Take a pick. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Edited By Grimnir77 on 01/11/09 11:07
Grim's got it, case closed.
Quote: Posted 01/11/09 10:55 (GMT) -- Grimnir77
I'll sum it up.
21 straight Ranger levels, and BoE.
Dump PA + Cleave for Dodge + Mobility
SD1 at lvl 22.
13 Rogue straight to qualify for Epic Dodge ASAP after that. Now we're already late career, and it's been a far stretch now without Discipline dumps. And you're at lvl 35, ready to get ED with the next feat. So, take Rogue 13 at lvl36 for Epic dodge, then you have a place to get a ranger level in for skilldump on the way. Your build will now look like this at lvl 36: Ranger22/SD1/Rogue13 WITH BoE, HiPS and ED!!! Very nice I think. 4 levels left to play with. 3 rogue for 1 feat (Crippling strike?) and 1 ranger level for a final discipline dump and BEHOLD: another feat. For a last FE perhaps.
Ranger23/SD1/Rogue16. Seem quite optimized to me.
About the bard. Taking it for extra SC saves in PvM won't really help you at lvl 37, as mentioned. You also talk a lot about giving yourself a chance in Fear auras. To my knowledge, spellcraft doesn't even help you vs Fear auras.....
If you still intend on getting that spellcraft, then I would take the bard level at 22, after BoE, it doubles as a Tumble dump and +5 AC. Then I would take Asn levels instead of rogue from there. The downside is that it will cost you dearly, very dearly, compared to not getting SC. It will cost you Epic Dodge(!!!) AND HiPS.
Either that, or eat the 20% XP-penalty from lvl 25 and onwards. I wouldn't do that either, I think. Taking Bard at lvl 37 doesn't really hurt the build per se, who cares about 20% xp-penalty for the last few levels? But it won't really help much either IMO, it's way too late into the build.
Hope my rants help a little.
Grim out. And be nice folks.
*EDIT* I see you has CHA 12. I'd set it too 8 and increase DEX to 15, CON to 12. Then Take Epic Prowess as the Ranger Bonus feat, making room for another great Dex through levelling. Ending DEX is now 28 compared too 26.
Alternative 2 is to start with DEX 16 and CON 10, use your feats as it is, and use the last Ranger feat for another FE. Ending DEX will even now be 28, so in reality you have exchanged +1 Fort and 40hp for another FE. Take a pick.
1- Thanks a lot, this clarifies pretty much everything. So yeah, basically I need to get used to the idea that this build is FLAWED and that's it ! Just a quick question: does Darkvision let you see through Darkness spells? In other words: do I generate sneak attacks without being affected by concealment while in darkness?
2- About the level spread, is there really another FE type that is worth taking? I was more inclined to go Rgr 21 / SD 2 / Rog 17 (if my idea to generate sneaks in Darkness is doable) or Rgr 23 / SD 1 / Rog 16 (using Epic Prowess as the Ranger Bonus Feat), or even (although less likely) Rgr 22 / SD 1 / Rog 17 for an extra 1d6 damage in sneaks.
3- About the initial stats, it will depend on the level spread, but mostly I will drop CHA to 8 and get my starting DEX pumped to either 15 or 16 (depending on the level spread I decide to go with), or even get my CON to start as 12 or 14. It depends mostly on the answer to the darkness question.
Take it EZ!
Well, I decided that it wasn't worth giving up an epic feat for Darkvision when you have Ultravision in your buff list (and nothing better to memorize anyway). Once more I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to comment and "giving me a little push" when I was stuck. IMO 2 people should be given special credit for the impressive outcome of this build (although everyone deserves a praise for their insightful advice): Grimnir77 for the VERY SPECIFIC changes he pointed out that really improved this build, and The Magical Master for mentioning the Mind Blank line of spells (this really appeased my uncertainties regarding his low will saves). Funny, now Remove Fear also comes to mind (duh!) .
Anyway, here it is!!
THE SILENT DEATH DEALER
Ranger (23) / Shadowdancer (1) / Rogue (16)
RACE: Human
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Neutral (Any)
STARTING STATS:
STR - 14 (+2) DEX - 15 (+2) CON - 12 (+1) WIS - 14 (+2) INT - 14 (+2) CHA - 8 (-1)
ENDING STATS:
STR - 14 (+2) DEX - 28 (+9) CON - 12 (+1) WIS - 14 (+2) INT - 14 (+2) CHA - 8 (-1)
BASIC STATS:
Hit Points: 374
Skill Points: 367
Saving Throws (Fort/Ref/Will): 23/25/18 (+4 VS Spells, Improved Evasion)
+1 - Aid +3 - Blade Thirst (2x) +1 / 2 - Cat's Grace +4 - If target is successfully knocked down +2 - VS Favored Enemies
Buffed AB: 49/50 (51/52 VS Favored Enemies)
He should have a damage output of 1-6 +2 (19-20/x3) on each hand, buffable as follows:
+3 from Blade Thirst + (2d6+5) - VS Favored Enemies +8d6 - Sneak Attack +5 - Power Attack
AC with mundane gear: 29
+1 / 2 - Cat's Grace +5 - Expertise
Buffed AC with no gear: 30/31 (35/36 with Expertise)
Take it EZ!
Edited By FinneousPJ on 01/11/09 19:31
Any particular reason for 6 heal? Putting that in, say, Open lock would allow you to open anything with 35 DC or less unbuffed, and up to 41 DC with dexterity capped.
Bravo! It's starting to look like an impressive build once you get to the epics.
I'd start with less STR and more DEX, but that's a minor tweak. For some environments consider ESF: Disc.
+1 - Aid +3 - Blade Thirst (2x) +1 / 2 - Cat's Grace +4 - If target is successfully knocked down +7 - VS Favored Enemies
Buffed AB: 49/50 (56/57 VS Favored Enemies)
This, however, is misinformation. You only get +2 vs. FEs, from BoE. _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
Any particular reason for 6 heal? Putting that in, say, Open lock would allow you to open anything with 35 DC or less unbuffed, and up to 41 DC with dexterity capped.
Yes, the first 6 levels are THE TOUGHEST, because you won't have your Animal Companion. Early Heal helps with playability and healability until you get your Panther. If you don't get it early on, it's really not worth it to take it at all, then Open Lock would be much better indeed . I guess it's a matter of personal preference.
Quote: Posted 01/11/09 16:49 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Bravo! It's starting to look like an impressive build once you get to the epics.
I'd start with less STR and more DEX, but that's a minor tweak. For some environments consider ESF: Disc.
+1 - Aid +3 - Blade Thirst (2x) +1 / 2 - Cat's Grace +4 - If target is successfully knocked down +7 - VS Favored Enemies
Buffed AB: 49/50 (56/57 VS Favored Enemies)
This, however, is misinformation. You only get +2 vs. FEs, from BoE.
1- I think I prefer strength for early damage and carrying capacity. In this build I would only start dual-wielding at level 12, before that either a shield / longsword or scimitar or a two-handed weapon would be the best chouce to go with, none are finesseable. At level 4 you get +1 DEX modifier in comparison to your Strength, which isn't much, that's why finesse will only begin to make more of a difference when your dex hits 18, at level 12.
2- I have considered ESF Discipline, just had no room to fit it there. Maybe if you start with 16 DEX, you could drop 1 Great Dexterity for it, but me, I prefer to get STR enhancing items in this case, you increase your damage as well as your Discipline checks and don't need to waste a feat. Another possibility is lowering CON to 10 instead of lowering STR, but I advise against that since his HP total is already too low for a meleer.
3- I don't think I'm misinformed, unless the manual and D&D books are wrong or they adapted it differently to NWN:
FE 1 - +1 attack and damage against 1 creature type; FE 2 - +2 attack and damage against 2 creature types; FE 3 - +3 attack and damage against 3 creature types; FE 4 - +4 attack and damage against 4 creature types; FE 5 - +5 attack and damage against 5 creature types; BoE - +2 attack and +2d6 damage VS all FEs.
Total: +7 to attack and + (2d6+5) to damage VS all FEs
Is it not how it works in NWN?
P.S: I think you get save bonuses as well, at least on D&D you do .
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 01/11/09 19:18
Quote: Posted 01/11/09 19:12 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
3- I don't think I'm misinformed
Think it or not, you are wrong here. Go test it IG. _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
Quote: Posted 01/11/09 19:23 (GMT) -- FinneousPJ
Quote: Posted 01/11/09 19:12 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
3- I don't think I'm misinformed
Think it or not, you are wrong here. Go test it IG.
just saw the wiki of it. DAMNABLE BIOWARE!! I think they were really bent on making Rangers SUCK! You're right, you only get damage bonuses
could you please edit that on the build post?
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 01/11/09 19:28
Quote: Posted 01/11/09 19:26 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
just saw the wiki of it. DAMNABLE BIOWARE!! I think they were really bent on making Rangers SUCK! You're right, you only get damage bonuses
Take it EZ!
No, Rangers don't suck. Hell, if FE did add to attack, they might just be the best melee class (for PvP). As they are, however they make great builds. This build here (Rgr/SD/Ro), which we have carefully crafted from your original idea, has been the best (PvP) sneaker build since HotU came out. Well IMO at least. _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
Ninja'd.
Quote: Posted 01/11/09 19:26 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
could you please edit that on the build post?
Done. _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
Quote: Posted 01/11/09 19:12 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane Yes, the first 6 levels are THE TOUGHEST, because you won't have your Animal Companion. Early Heal helps with playability and healability until you get your Panther. If you don't get it early on, it's really not worth it to take it at all, then Open Lock would be much better indeed . I guess it's a matter of personal preference.
You'll already heal at least 23 hp while not in combat even with a healing kit +1. I guess I'm not seeing where you're seeing a massive use for it unless you're trying to heal poisons or something, and you can beat a DC of 23 with just a standard healer kit +1.
What type of situation would you use it in?
Never saw this answered, so, no darkvision will not give you any boni in magical darkness. It helps you see when you're in dark caves and such, and as much as I appreciate that, the gamma slider does that for free... Still, for my own personal reasons, I'd prefer not to do that. Anyways, as far as I know, there's no big practical reason to go after darkvision.
Also, regardless of whether there's another FE group that you might want, taking another adds to damage versus all, so that sounds like a good deal to me.
I still don't see why you need expertise (the whole point of this feat is if you're playing a tank and you need some reassurance you won't die when you drop out of combat to chug some healing potions).
I also don't see why you need 43 concentration. You can easily save 2 INT right here (giving you 16 DEX at the start and ESF: Discipline). And an extra feat pre-epic.
Quote: Posted 01/11/09 20:17 (GMT) -- onion eater
Also, regardless of whether there's another FE group that you might want, taking another adds to damage versus all, so that sounds like a good deal to me.
I'm not sure I follow, but if you take FEs on Range Epic bonus feats (23, 26, ...) you do not progress your FE dmg, only on multiples of 5. e.g. picking a FE at 23 will result in 6 FEs @ +5 dmg. _________________
Quote: meatpimp
Pish tosh. We should now turn our attention to those dastardly devices that actually TIE one's body to the vehicle. No thank you, I prefer to have inertia throw my body clear of an accident, kindly.
Quote: Posted 01/11/09 19:12 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane Yes, the first 6 levels are THE TOUGHEST, because you won't have your Animal Companion. Early Heal helps with playability and healability until you get your Panther. If you don't get it early on, it's really not worth it to take it at all, then Open Lock would be much better indeed . I guess it's a matter of personal preference.
You'll already heal at least 23 hp while not in combat even with a healing kit +1. I guess I'm not seeing where you're seeing a massive use for it unless you're trying to heal poisons or something, and you can beat a DC of 23 with just a standard healer kit +1.
What type of situation would you use it in?
Dire Spider poison DC is 26, so there is one use that comes to mind. Also, I dont really care that much for Open Locks myself, if you can just bash it, bash it and get it over with. Besides I'd have to wait until level 22 to get it as a Class Skill, at which point I should have reasonable damage bonus from magic weapons to bash through pretty much anything, so like I said, personal preference .
Quote: Posted 01/11/09 20:24 (GMT) -- Bertuzzi
I still don't see why you need expertise (the whole point of this feat is if you're playing a tank and you need some reassurance you won't die when you drop out of combat to chug some healing potions).
I also don't see why you need 43 concentration. You can easily save 2 INT right here (giving you 16 DEX at the start and ESF: Discipline). And an extra feat pre-epic.
1- I don't need it, but I love it, it makes it A LOT easier to get through the earlier levels, at least with the tactics I use. I won't have Tumble for the first 21 levels, so my AC won't be something to brag about, that's where Expertise will be most useful. If you don't like it, you can change it (like I said, it's a "nice to have" feat), but it works well for me .
2- I have it because Blades of Thirst is a short duration spell and I may want or need to cast it while in melee combat, also I really don't think I'll have 6 AC to spare against taunters, and my HP are low. I calculate my AC should be in the 50s with +5 gear. Not enough. Again, just personal preference, if you want, you can change that to make it more suitable to your stye as well
Quote: Posted 01/11/09 20:17 (GMT) -- onion eater
Never saw this answered, so, no darkvision will not give you any boni in magical darkness. It helps you see when you're in dark caves and such, and as much as I appreciate that, the gamma slider does that for free... Still, for my own personal reasons, I'd prefer not to do that. Anyways, as far as I know, there's no big practical reason to go after darkvision.
Also, regardless of whether there's another FE group that you might want, taking another adds to damage versus all, so that sounds like a good deal to me.
It would be worth it if it made you immune to the Darkness spell, because every attack while in Darkness is a Sneak Attack , and I don't know what a Gamma Slider is.
Thanks for answering anyway.
Take it EZ!
If you're a shadowdancer, you don't need to cast in melee. All you need to do is hide, walk away and recast.
Also while we're at it, then Extend Spell would be nicer - it makes your Blade Thirst last twice as long, and 4 minutes is usually plenty long for any battle.
This way you can decrease your INT quite a bit.
Quote: Posted 01/11/09 22:56 (GMT) -- Bertuzzi
If you're a shadowdancer, you don't need to cast in melee. All you need to do is hide, walk away and recast.
Also while we're at it, then Extend Spell would be nicer - it makes your Blade Thirst last twice as long, and 4 minutes is usually plenty long for any battle.
This way you can decrease your INT quite a bit.
No, I can't: IKD requires INT 13. I could decrease STR and INT by 1 point each and do as you suggested. If you want, you can do that
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 01/11/09 23:59
3 heal is all you need with a +1 healing kit to beat a DC of 26. If you have a +3 kit, you only need 1 heal. If you have a +4 or better kit, you don't need any.
Quote: by Maximilian Kane I don't think I'm misinformed
Quote: by Maximilian Kane just saw the wiki of it. DAMNABLE BIOWARE!!
I told you that you should trust more in Finn. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
I might love skills more than most, but there's no way my ranger/Rogues get enough skillpoints. So I would stick to 14 INT. If you get excess, then learn to set traps etc. I understand the need to min/max, but for a PvM build at least, it's good as is. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Now I must ask you again: what do we do about the title? It shows the ancient beginning of things when it was still monk rgr rog. Should I post the final version like I did with the Holy Weapon Master With Cheese?
Take it EZ!
Quote: Posted 01/12/09 19:58 (GMT) -- Maximillian Kane
Now I must ask you again: what do we do about the title?
I don't think it matters much. I just try to pretend that this thread is in the discussion forum, as normally, builds posted here don't have six pages of rewrites, ending as something so drastically different. Seems like it's time to just close your eyes, and forget.
), and would like to share another build I came up with recently. I have seen some similar builds, but nothing with this level distribution (which is kind of odd because IMO it's the best possible one), the one I liked most was from Grizzled Dwarflord, but I don't know how to add links to the post, so I can't show you which one.
Fixed 
That costs you 43 skill points. See where I'm going? Your discipline aint gonna help you much at all. Maybe it's not absolutely totally useless, but it damned well aint worth the cost.
DONT post it under Thax's build, as that is post highjacking! Thax's build is thax's and it is older, so make a new post with links to his and this for "inspirational" posts.
If there is a build I ever regret spending my time on it's this one, but alas I already started it and I always finish what I start. I will post the corrected vrsion of it shortly, but for now I'm still considering dropping Charisma to 8 and going Constitution 14 as onion eater suggested. Or even rearranging some of my stats (getting STR 13 and INT 13 to qualify for Power Attack and Expertise, going CON 12, CHA 8 and starting with 16 DEX)
nevermind. i think we should really get off this build. its been almost 5 pages now of ramblings from ALL of us (but mostly me!)