Hi All, I have been looking for a build that was a good with a bow as he was with melee weapons. The builds that I have seen, great they are, but were focused on one or the other. My goal was create a build that was able to excel in both, to also get Epic Dodge and Self Conceal V without loosing out on too much would be nice. This build does have an Experience Penalty, for each level past 7, but if you are not looking for “instant gratification” and get level 40 in a day or two ( or a week with this one  ) it may be worth it.
21 Fighter 14 Great Dex I, Epic WF: Dagger (Dex 24) 22 Shadow Dancer 5 {Defensive Roll} 23 Fighter 15 24 Fighter 16 Great Dex II, Epic WF: Short bow, Dex +1 (26) 25 Fighter 17 26 Shadow Dancer 6 27 Fighter 18 Great Dex III, Epic Prowess (Dex 27) 28 Shadow Dancer 7 {Slipery Mind} Dex +1 (28) 29 Shadow Dancer 8 30 Shadow Dancer 9 Great Dex IV (Dex 29) 31 Shadow Dancer 10 {Improved Evasion} 32 Shadow Dancer 11 Dex +1 (30) 33 Shadow Dancer 12 Epic Dodge 34 Shadow Dancer 13 Self Concealment I 35 Shadow Dancer 14 36 Shadow Dancer 15 Self Concealment II Dex +1 (31) 37 Shadow Dancer 16 Self Concealment III 38 Shadow Dancer 17 39 Shadow Dancer 18 Self Concealment IV 40 Shadow Dancer 19 Self Concealment V Dex +1 (32)
Skills: 254 Points
Discipline 30 Hide 43 [54] Move Silently 43 [56] Tumble 43 [54] Lore 25 [27] Left over 65 to place where you want
HP: 442
AC: (naked / mundane armor/shield only) 30 / 32
AB: (naked) melee 45 (-2 dual wielding) / range 45
Saves: Fort 24 Reflex 31 Will 21 Bonuses: traps +2 fear +2
As for Pros and Cons: each person sees them both differently, so each can make their own opinion on them .
You don't like to hurt people so much, just a little?
What's with ranger though? The only thing 3 ranger levels brings you in this build is pain. Pain in the form of an xp penalty at lvl 6, and all the way from 8 -> infinity. If you take 3 rogue levels instead, you get more skillpoints, 2d6 SA, earlier uncanny dodge and no XP-penalty. You'd loose 1 BAB and a few hitpoints. Easily worth the tradeoff.
I also wonder, have you tried to make this build work with Rogue instead of SD? I would think that letting go of one fighter feat in epic would be worth it, ending fighter16/SD5/Rogue19? Same number of feats, except for the fighter one and more skillpoints, tons of SA. It won't really change the end build that much, but I tell you, that SA and those skillpoints go a long way.
Doing it with Rogue will make the final 10 levels look like this:
*EDIT* Your starting stats are wrong and weird also: Stats: Str 10 Dex 18 (32) Con 12 Wis 12 Int 14 Cha 6 CHA must be 8 in a Halfling. Even if it were, you'd have 2 statpoints left to use. I would drop 4 points in WIS, take the 2 from your builders bank to get a total of 6 left to spend and spend them all in one place unlike what your mother always says. And get starting ability scores like this:
STR 10 DEX 20 CON 12 WIS 8 INT 14 CHA 8 _________________ I see the fear you have inside, you can run but never hide. I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb.
I run the Pre-Epic Builders guild. Join and share your experience.
Edited By Grimnir77 on 01/22/09 23:40
Yeah, he needs to be able to do some kind of damage. No UMD, no traps, no sneak damage, he can't even dualwield properly. HiPS and Epic Dodge are alway nice, but that's defense. Still need a bit of offense.
I realize that you want to be good at two weapons, but for dex-based characters you need more than EWS. For instance, let's look at Xitooner's Martial Rogue Dex-based like yours, he gets EWS in ranged and melee, all your activated combat feats, Epic Dodge, but--but he also gets 10d6 sneak, has the whole Rogue skill set for trapping, UMD scrolls and wands and, combined with Exotic Weaponry, allows him to use pretty much anything he finds, has better saves, comparable hit points, and about the same AC. What he lacks is SC V, which is no great loss since it can be simulated by other sources, and his AB is a couple notches lower, but for having 20 Rogue levels, it rivals any standard meleer type.
So yes, I'd advise dropping Ranger altogether. As far as Shadowdancer goes, I'm an SD fan, and I like doing strength-based ones and taking them deep into levels (where I play, SD's get extras for staying in class and not selfishly dipping for the obligatory SD1 HiPS). Taking an SD to 19 in a dex-based build can get dicey, since you have only 21 other levels to figure out what's going to be your source of damage. In a build like yours, I would be tempted to drop those SD levels down a bit, say to like 7, and do something like Fighter16/SD5/Rogue19. In a build like that, you can actually increase your AC by dropping SC V, and going with Improved Evasion, Epic Dodge, and Crippling Strike, and then having room for one more Rogue bonus feat that you could put towards an Epic Skill Focus.
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
What's up people! I have a very dumb question as usual . Since it's a 2-style build, then you'll need lots of feats, right? If he did rearrange the way you guys suggested, then why not try this: drop fighter altogether, get Ranger (15) (that way you have both Camouflage and Mass Camouflage), an Animal Companion and Cat's Grace, losing a little damage for dropping Weapon Specialization. That way you'd lose some feats, but get the Dual Wielding ones for free. To compensate these lost feats, he could get CoT (15) and SD (10) to meet the requirements for Epic Dodge. He would still have problems with damage, but his saves would improve drastically, wouldn't they? And who can say no to +20 to Hide?
EDIT: There was a very good build created by one of the main guys in this guild, and I had the pleasure to look at it while learning. Mick Dagger's "The Devastating Specialist of Blade and Bow". That was an AWESOME build (I don't know how to post links yet, so if anyone could do it I'd appreciate it), so before you decide anything about this guy, you should definitely take a look at that one
Take it EZ!
Edited By Maximillian Kane on 01/23/09 03:22
You're not getting the point. Dual-wielding won't add real effective damage with such a low STR score, the lowest DR will make you suffer. Ranger 3 won't even give ITWF, but even at 15 this build needs a damage source. The only way to make Ranger a good damage source is to take Bane of Enemies, if not, change the class. Dropping Fighter is a lot worse than dropping Ranger, the extra feats (they're 10 you know) can let you take ITWF, but Ranger won't let you take EWS.
Max, I've told you how to use the forum format before, you open with [url=(write here the url)_] and close with [/url_] (the _ is placed so that the format is shown). Everything works the same way, [b_] bolding [/b_], [i_] italics [/i_] and [quote_]
Quote: quoting
[/quote_] That's all the format I know this forum has. You could also just click on the quote buttong below any post to read how a formatted piece of text was written. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
You're not getting the point. Dual-wielding won't add real effective damage with such a low STR score, the lowest DR will make you suffer. Ranger 3 won't even give ITWF, but even at 15 this build needs a damage source. The only way to make Ranger a good damage source is to take Bane of Enemies, if not, change the class. Dropping Fighter is a lot worse than dropping Ranger, the extra feats (they're 10 you know) can let you take ITWF, but Ranger won't let you take EWS.
That was my assessment as well.
Quote: Max, I've told you how to use the forum format before, you open with [url=(write here the url)_] and close with [/url_] (the _ is placed so that the format is shown). Everything works the same way, bolding [b_] [/b_], italics [i_] [/i_] and quoting [quote_] /[quote_] and that's all the format I know this forum has.
Or, at the very least, quote my above response to see how I did it within the post. It breaks it down for you right there when you quote a post to type a response. You can see all the little funky doodads that people use in theirposts and THREADS and
OK, I understand you guys. In my defence, Thax you did tell me how to quote and I've been quoting like crazy! . Quick question though, so we can get this back on topic: if I type something can I copy/paste the "something" part from another window of Internet Explorer?
Now about the character we're discussing. You're saying that he'd only be effective as a Ranger if he had 21 levels of it, right? So would it be solved if he dropped 6 CoT levels to get BoE?
I maybe an ignorant for asking this but: What if he went Fighter / SD / Assassin? then he would be able to drop SC, freeing 5 epic feats (although 3 of those are SD bonus ones) because he'd get Improved Invis and Death attack could solve the damage problems, no?.
Yeah, he needs to be able to do some kind of damage. No UMD, no traps, no sneak damage, he can't even dualwield properly. HiPS and Epic Dodge are alway nice, but that's defense. Still need a bit of offense.
I realize that you want to be good at two weapons, but for dex-based characters you need more than EWS. For instance, let's look at Xitooner's Martial Rogue Dex-based like yours, he gets EWS in ranged and melee, all your activated combat feats, Epic Dodge, but--but he also gets 10d6 sneak, has the whole Rogue skill set for trapping, UMD scrolls and wands and, combined with Exotic Weaponry, allows him to use pretty much anything he finds, has better saves, comparable hit points, and about the same AC. What he lacks is SC V, which is no great loss since it can be simulated by other sources, and his AB is a couple notches lower, but for having 20 Rogue levels, it rivals any standard meleer type.
So yes, I'd advise dropping Ranger altogether. As far as Shadowdancer goes, I'm an SD fan, and I like doing strength-based ones and taking them deep into levels (where I play, SD's get extras for staying in class and not selfishly dipping for the obligatory SD1 HiPS). Taking an SD to 19 in a dex-based build can get dicey, since you have only 21 other levels to figure out what's going to be your source of damage. In a build like yours, I would be tempted to drop those SD levels down a bit, say to like 7, and do something like Fighter16/SD5/Rogue19. In a build like that, you can actually increase your AC by dropping SC V, and going with Improved Evasion, Epic Dodge, and Crippling Strike, and then having room for one more Rogue bonus feat that you could put towards an Epic Skill Focus.
Cheers, lad.
I was gonna say it again, but WHY! Griz is know as the dwarfLORD for a reason!!
You're not getting the point. Dual-wielding won't add real effective damage with such a low STR score, the lowest DR will make you suffer. Ranger 3 won't even give ITWF, but even at 15 this build needs a damage source. The ONLY way to make Ranger a good damage source is to take Bane of Enemies, if not, change the class. Dropping Fighter is a lot worse than dropping Ranger, the extra feats (they're 10 you know) can let you take ITWF, but Ranger won't let you take EWS.
I found a new niche! simply rehash already posted materials to answer posts! Thanks Thax! No one could have said it better! ('cept maybe Griz, who said it also!) DOH! _________________
Quote: Posted 01/23/09 00:02 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord I realize that you want to be good at two weapons, but for dex-based characters you need more than EWS.
Look again. he doesn't even have EWS in any of the weapons.
Quote: Posted 01/23/09 00:02 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord say to like 7, and do something like Fighter16/SD5/Rogue19. In a build like that, you can actually increase your AC by dropping SC V, and going with Improved Evasion, Epic Dodge, and Crippling Strike, and then having room for one more Rogue bonus feat that you could put towards an Epic Skill Focus.
Cheers, lad.
7 and 5 is different mr.Grizzled_MidgetSomething. That's the same split I suggested, although I let him keep all the SC, and just adding the offense.
@Maximillian: A ranger can get ITWF for "free" in 9 levels. A fighter can do it in 4. That's how free it is.
Quote: Posted 01/23/09 16:49 (GMT) -- avado
I found a new niche! simply rehash already posted materials to answer posts! Thanks Thax! No one could have said it better! ('cept maybe Griz, who said it also!) DOH!
Don't brag. EWhat took you all so long to answer I already answered just a few minutes after his post. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Edited By Grimnir77 on 01/23/09 18:20
Quote: Posted 01/23/09 18:19 (GMT) -- Grimnir77
Look again. he doesn't even have EWS in any of the weapons.
Which proves my point even further. He doesn't even have EWS.
Quote: 7 and 5 is different mr.Grizzled_MidgetSomething. That's the same split I suggested, although I let him keep all the SC, and just adding the offense.
Well, well, Mr. Pedantic and with a bit of smarm in his charm. I thought 7 and then while writing realized that 5 would be better, and allow him to choose his last bonus feat rather than settle for Slippery Mind.
Hmmph, you leave the Guild for 6 years and then come back and think your Mr. Smarty Pants? Not yet, bub. You gotta earn your keep around here. And shed some blood with us on the field of battle. _________________ Got Hommlet? World of Greyhawk Action Server (with 1/2 price ales on Mondays!)
Ariel, Ookla, RIDE!
Quote: by avado I was gonna say it again, but WHY! Griz is know as the dwarfLORD for a reason!!
You couldn't resist it right? why don't you send kisses to grizz too? or a cake? maybe ale would do too...
Quote: by avado I found a new niche! simply rehash already posted materials to answer posts! Thanks Thax! No one could have said it better! ('cept maybe Griz, who said it also!) DOH!
Hey, that's almost spam! you wrote nothing, you just quoted and bolded, any chimp can do that.
Quote: by Grimnir77 7 and 5 is different mr.Grizzled_MidgetSomething.
I never thought I'd see Grim making fun out of grizz, but he really got you there grizz, unless you're too literate, then Grim wrote it wrong too. What a shame this topic has become. _________________ "My name is Thaxll'ssyllia, but you simians may refer to me merely as "Sir", if you prefer a less... syllable intensive workout."
Edwin Odesseiron - Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn
Edited By Thaxll'ssyllia on 01/24/09 00:43
Fighter/SD/Assassin would work about as well as Fighter/SD/Rogue. There are lots of good examples of both in the guild (both Str-based and Dex-based). The Assassin King is a nice one, for example.
With the 1.69 update making Epic Dodge unattainable before level 27, I have definitely started to favor str-based SD builds over dex-based. I used to like some of the dex-based ones when you could get ED by level 21, since that was early enough to get to enjoy it for a while in a decent number of modules, but there just aren't that many good modules for characters at level 27+. And the damage output of the dex-based ones is too low for my taste, even with sneak damage.
But the str-based ones can really dish it out. Combine high str, EWS, and 10d6 sneak damage and you don't need more than that first flurry of attacks from stealth to finish off most enemies (you can get an average of ~60 points per hit). And even against sneak-immunes, you still match a str-based fighter build for damage, plus you can use HiPS to add to defense.
TM
Quote: Posted 01/23/09 18:19 (GMT) -- Grimnir77 Don't brag. EWhat took you all so long to answer I already answered just a few minutes after his post.
sorry Grim. I am havin HUGE problems with somethin called bios with my pc.. i guess it missed your answer! _________________
Fighter/SD/Assassin would work about as well as Fighter/SD/Rogue. There are lots of good examples of both in the guild (both Str-based and Dex-based). The Assassin King is a nice one, for example.
With the 1.69 update making Epic Dodge unattainable before level 27, I have definitely started to favor str-based SD builds over dex-based. I used to like some of the dex-based ones when you could get ED by level 21, since that was early enough to get to enjoy it for a while in a decent number of modules, but there just aren't that many good modules for characters at level 27+. And the damage output of the dex-based ones is too low for my taste, even with sneak damage.
But the str-based ones can really dish it out. Combine high str, EWS, and 10d6 sneak damage and you don't need more than that first flurry of attacks from stealth to finish off most enemies (you can get an average of ~60 points per hit). And even against sneak-immunes, you still match a str-based fighter build for damage, plus you can use HiPS to add to defense.
TM
I will look into the Assassin King as you suggested, but I meant that Assassin would be better in this case than Rogue because of Improved Invisibility. He spent 5 epic feats on SC, and he could get that for free with Improved Invisibility. However, I now realize that with Rogue he could get that too through UMD, so yeah, either is fine
Take it EZ!
Quote: Posted 01/23/09 22:24 (GMT) -- grizzled_dwarflord Hmmph, you leave the Guild for 6 years and then come back and think your Mr. Smarty Pants?
More like 6 months, and yeah, I've always been like that.
Quote: Posted 01/24/09 00:30 (GMT) -- Thaxll'ssyllia I never thought I'd see Grim making fun out of grizz, but he really got you there grizz, unless you're too literate, then Grim wrote it wrong too. What a shame this topic has become.
Heh? Pretty sure we've made fun of each other on occasion a few times before. Especially when too much beer gets soaked up in the beard. But it's friendly fun.
Sorry for straying from the path of the topic though, who the heck made me a moderator? _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
Max,
I love assassins. But you have HiPS, why do you need improved invisibility too? Assassin to be worthwhile requires either: 1) high level investment, 2) high intelligence, or 3) both. Nine levels with a moderate intelligence is 9 levels flushed down a hole.
If you want to go assassin, then you need to totally rework the build. You'd actually be well off going back to Ranger for 9 levels, because now you get stealth points that count towards assassin and/or sd. Then take assassin. If you want HiPS for cheesedom, take 5 levels for defensive roll and maybe you can sneak epic dodge in. So something like Ranger 9 (all pre-epic), sd 5, assassin 26. Alternately, you could punch ranger to 21, take Bane of Enemies, and 14 levels of assassin *might* still be a fair trade for the additional damage.
But honestly, with a halfing, fighter/rogue/sd is a better bet.
Ranger 9/SD 5/As 26 still can't get ED - no Improved Evasion. Monk 9/SD 5/As 26 can (and single-wielding a kama will have as many attacks as the dual-wield Ranger would).
Ranger 9/Sd 5/As 26 would be a good combo for a str-based build. Ranger gets you dual-wielding without needing to pump Dex to 15, and can take Hide/MS, so for this combo it's better than fighter. Although you might want to take 1 more Ranger level in Epic for a bonus feat (yes, you lose an Assassin bonus feat, but since you don't neet tons of Great Dex, the Ranger feat may be more useful).
TM
First of all, hey all! been awhile..
After reading one heck of a long discussion about a whole lot of possible rebuilds (or completly new builds as many of them are) for this build (fighter ranger shadowdancer), I can only say three things that would contribute to the topic.
1. this is a ranger fighter shadowdancer, not an assassin or rogue. the author asked for improvements and not a new build.
2. i think that the 2nd weaponfocus should be in a weapon that doesnt do the same type of dmg as the ranged weapon. As most ranged weapons tends to do piercing dmg then kukri would be a good slashing weapon to go with it, the fighter lvls could easily afford spending a feat on exotic prof to make this possible.
3. Word, Tattoed monk. Someone should have said this in clear text at once. (heck i was about to post a reply with it after reading the first page)
PS. no offense meant in this post even if i find myself in a quite bitchy mood right now, feel free to mod my post if it disturbs you, mr.moderator ^^
Oh, and one more thing. i think it would be deadly cute with a str based version of this. mighty midgets are hawt
Edited By arvut on 02/05/09 02:35
Quote: Posted 02/05/09 02:32 (GMT) -- arvut
1. this is a ranger fighter shadowdancer, not an assassin or rogue. the author asked for improvements and not a new build.
Changing a class doesn't mean a new build. Also, improving the current build, which is what most suggestions here do, does not mean that we can't change classes. Try to read my reply for example, about dropping Ranger for rogue, and tell me in what way it's a new build? It accomplishes the same things this build does, but with the improvements I list. Grumpy or not, don't make your own rules and expect us all to know what they are. The rules are listed in a sticky, and that's the rules most of us follows. If you want to add some, you are of course welcome to follow them yourself, just don't expect the rest of us to do it. _________________ We are sons of Odin, and the fire that we burn inside is the legacy of warrior-kings who reign above in the sky I will lead the charge, my sword into the wind Sons of Odin fights to die and live again
And the discussion on assassin came as a proposal for avoiding xp penalties (which this gets in spades) while maintaining the viability of a ranger base class stealther. Which is again, not a substantial deviation from the point of the build.
Secondary rebuilds on member feedback have long been a staple of this guild. And yes, some have involved *radical* reworks of the classes used.
